We *Need* to stop climate change

[Wanderfound]

A rational approach will include a proper cost/ benefit analysis, not abject panic and hyperbole.

We did one: http://mudancasclimaticas.cptec.inpe.br/~rmclima/pdfs/destaques/sternreview_report_complete.pdf

Cost of transition to sustainable energy: about 1% of global GDP. Consequence of not acting: catastrophic.

Of course, that was nine years ago, and all we've done since then is to accelerate carbon production. And the catastrophes are starting to occur. There's methane bubbling out of Siberia much faster than expected (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun_hypothesis#Current_outlook), and there's some suggestion that we're already seeing climate-driven wars (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/03/02/study_climate_change_helped_spark_syrian_civil_war.html).

That's the big danger; the chance that we're going to trash ourselves by more traditional means before runaway warming has the chance to do it for us. Climate change is a threat multiplier; it makes all of the existing problems of the world more volatile. Water shortages, food shortages, refugee flows; these are all factors that are known triggers for war. Desperate people do desperate things.

BTW, for population, see: http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_religions_and_babies?language=en Things aren't quite as bad as they seem on that issue.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Wanderfound

[r4pt0r]

thoughts on this? http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=23746

I have done very little reading on this stuff, but can climate change do good? turn deserts into more easily liveable space, things like that?

[lajoswinkler]

thoughts on this? http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=23746

I have done very little reading on this stuff, but can climate change do good? turn deserts into more easily liveable space, things like that?

Pile of horse poo.

Yes, it can do good things for us, but its total effect is very negative. Deserts will not turn into lush areas. Zero evidence or theoretical predictions for that.

What we see is an increased amount of energy in the atmosphere and hydrosphere, leading to more temperature and wind extremes: friggid cold waves, insane heat waves, worse and worse storms.

Few years ago Arctic was turned into a completely passable sea for the first time in the history of humanity. That is not normal.

Species are migrating. Tropical marine species are migrating towards the north because of the elevated seawater temperatures. That is extremely dangerous for natural variety of life in one area and it is detrimental to the fishery industry. By marine species I don't mean only fishes which compete with domestic ones. I also mean zooplankton - jellyfish included. They wreck havoc on juvenile fishes, destroying the fish stock.

Insects are migrating. Europe is bombarded by dangerous tiger mosquitos. Domestic mosquitos survive winter.

Summertime weeds survive winters, some of them are allergenic.

This and many more things are happening. It is difficult to accept for people who live in regions of USA where arctic airmasses blow. They are obviously more prone to think there is no global warming. But the rest of the world is having more and more problems.

This isn't going to be the end for humanity, the environment can only harm us so much.

If worst comes to worst, eventually we'll update our technology and that will help.

Once hybrids and electric cars become mainstream across the world, that'll help a little.

It's not going to be the end, but it will cause lots of death over a great period of time. Party is over. This is an extinction level event for many species already, but not a sudden one, so you can't make a superhero movie about it and people don't give a crap because their lives aren't endangered in a way like when an asteroid is about to cover their house with a kilometre of ocean or molten rock.

Hybrids will not help.

Electric cars will not help if we continue to produce energy from coal.

Solar panels will not help.

[tater]

The arctic is not completely navigable, and the open extent is not unique in history, either.

[m4v]

vote for the party that doesn't play the "I'm not a scientist" card. At this point, fighting climate change is a political problem, not a technological one.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Actually, China knows that it has cheap labor. Even with advanced designs they would want to keep it inexpensive, for business reasons.

It's already gone to worse... We just need to stop it from getting worser...

Aren't the temperate regions getting colder (on average in winter) and the polar regions getting warmer? Average, of course.

Man, here in the North where it usually gets to -40C. It rained in the middle of December.

[Sampa]

Man, here in the North where it usually gets to -40C. It rained in the middle of December.

Big deal, it's SUPPOSED to rain in the middle of December where I'm from!

[Bill Phil]

Big deal, it's SUPPOSED to rain in the middle of December where I'm from!

Are you on the opposite hemisphere?

Either that or Florida?

[vger]

vote for the party that doesn't play the "I'm not a scientist" card. At this point, fighting climate change is a political problem, not a technological one.

Sometime it's worse than that. What about the party that plays the "scientists are lying" card?

[SpaceExplorer]

vote for the party that doesn't play the "I'm not a scientist" card. At this point, fighting climate change is a political problem, not a technological one.

I agree with this. Although, international non-governmental organizations like Greenpeace, UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change), etc. exist (and are doing a fantastic job of spreading the word of the major impacts of climate change can have). I think that we need one country to step up to the plate, act as the catalyst of change, and the rest of the world will follow suit. There are many examples throughout history that pertain to this idea, take the Kyoto Protocol for example. It was a multilateral agreement, and when the United States of America stepped out Kyoto, it had a ripple effect across the whole agreement. Soon, the time will come when we need to do something, and I hope the reaction to that won't be too late.

Sometime it's worse than that. What about the party that plays the "scientists are lying" card?

I also agree with this. This actually scares me, and shows how many political agendas do not involve concepts and ideas in order to remediate the problem which is climate change. This again promotes the need for a hegemonic organization to lead meetings in order to put the framework in place to stop climate change. I feel that if no country steps up this problem climate change will not be solved, and may potentially get worse.

[vger]

This just came up in my feed.

Florida's Department of Environmental Protection BANS "climate change" and "global warming" from all official communications.

http://guff.com/florida-officials-ban-the-term-climate-change/20?ts_pid=2

Climate Change could end up being the "Galileo" of our age.

Edited March 9, 2015 by vger

[Drunken Hobo]

This just came up in my feed.

Florida's Department of Environmental Protection BANS "climate change" and "global warming" from all official communications.

http://guff.com/florida-officials-ban-the-term-climate-change/20?ts_pid=2

Climate Change could end up being the "Galileo" of our age.

Indeed. Back in 2013 the Australian government shut down their climate change commission. Rather fittingly, 2013 turned out to be Australia's hottest year since records began in 1910, and 2014 its 3rd hottest year.

I'm sure that it's just a complete coincidence, and Australia's warming has nothing to do with the rest of the globe warming. Just as I'm sure it's a coincidence that their current PM's only notable place of previous employment was as a News Corp journalist...

[Roadkill]

Yeah! Another "climate change" thread. I love these! I think that everyone should stop using coal and gasoline and diesel and natural gas and fireplaces and wood and kill all the animals that breathe in air and then breathe out co2 and that means also kill all unneeded humans and plug up all the volcanoes with concrete and we should be fine.

[moronwrocket]

Make climate change another overarching theme of the contracts in career, along with generic exploration:

1. Initial contracts for thermo and baro measurements around the planet

2. Weather satellite launch requests

3. Polar EVAs to examine the ground.

4. Solar orbiting satellites, and exploration of other planets to understand Sol.

5. Research and analysis of other planetary bodies to find new sources of energy.

6. Setting up research bases on other planetary bodies.

7. Setting up mining and extraction bases for returning ??? home.

8. Creating colonies on other planets to expand Kerbal's base outside of Kerbin.

9. ??

10. Profit!

[vger]

Yeah! Another "climate change" thread. I love these! I think that everyone should stop using coal and gasoline and diesel and natural gas and fireplaces and wood and kill all the animals that breathe in air and then breathe out co2 and that means also kill all unneeded humans and plug up all the volcanoes with concrete and we should be fine.

... do we still have to pay a toll when crossing your bridge?

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Yeah! Another "climate change" thread. I love these! I think that everyone should stop using coal and gasoline and diesel and natural gas and fireplaces and wood and kill all the animals that breathe in air and then breathe out co2 and that means also kill all unneeded humans and plug up all the volcanoes with concrete and we should be fine.

Naw man, with the modern human we can't change that. But, we can change the way things are powered to nuclear energy. And still use cars that are fast, and gas hungry

[Roadkill]

... do we still have to pay a toll when crossing your bridge?

I don't get the bridge reference. Please elaborate as I'm sure it's funny.

Obviously my post is way over the top, we don't need to kill all the animals. But for anyone to suggest that we can control the Earth's climate through legislation is equally over the top. There are what, 6 or 7 billion people on the planet, maybe more? It's been a while since I checked. And how many political groups within that population? All with their own goals. All with different things that make them happy. I disagree with Slashy. There are things we, the humans, can do to make the world a better place. We won't do it though. Just way to many groups that all think their way is the best.

The Earth will make adjustments, I am sure of that. Some people may survive these adjustments, I hope they do. A lot of people probably won't. The best I think we can hope for. is that our descendants learn from history. That they stop trying to rewrite it according to whatever fad is popular at the moment. That humans learn to live with the planet, not just on it.

[vger]

I don't get the bridge reference. Please elaborate as I'm sure it's funny.

Yep...

Obviously my post is way over the top

You almost answered your own question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Billy_Goats_Gruff

[Roadkill]

Yep...

You almost answered your own question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Billy_Goats_Gruff

So the reference you give there is about a troll and a even larger billy goat. I think I get it. You are calling me a troll. Very solid counter argument to almost any point of view that you disagree with. Start calling people names. My post did not call anyone a name. It was designed to point out the futility of any attempts by any one particular group at changing global climate patterns. Not because it can't be done, but because I believe it is impossible to get everyone to agree on what to do and why. There will always be disagreements on what is necessary and why. That is why threads like this should be closed as soon as they are started, unless you want to change forum rules and allow political arguements, and all viewpoints that go along with them, without censorship. Unless of course this is actually just one big hugbox with political agendas of it's own. In that case, feel free to report me as a troll and continue on with a pointless discussion.

[Columbia]

Oh, climate change is inevitable anyways! It's a part of nature! So what if it's being worsened by industries? Hah, only the economy matters anyway!

(Sarcasm)

[vger]

So the reference you give there is about a troll and a even larger billy goat. I think I get it. You are calling me a troll. Very solid counter argument to almost any point of view that you disagree with.

You openly admitted that your post was intentionally over the top. That is the most basic of troll strategies.

Maybe that wasn't your intent (in the case of sarcasm), and if so, I apologize. But the attitude of that post suggested a blatant disregard for the future of the only planet we have.

Edited March 10, 2015 by vger

[RainDreamer]

Yeah! Another "climate change" thread. I love these! I think that everyone should stop using coal and gasoline and diesel and natural gas and fireplaces and wood and kill all the animals that breathe in air and then breathe out co2 and that means also kill all unneeded humans and plug up all the volcanoes with concrete and we should be fine.

Kind of late. We are already over those points. Climate changes is inevitable by this point, we passed one too many points of no return. Whatever we could do to dramatically change the situation should have been done 30-40 years ago. By this point we are just looking for a way to dampen the consequences and find a way to survive the future we chose.

[GoSlash27]

Kind of late. We are already over those points. Climate changes is inevitable by this point, we passed one too many points of no return. Whatever we could do to dramatically change the situation should have been done 30-40 years ago. By this point we are just looking for a way to dampen the consequences and find a way to survive the future we chose.

Agreed, with the emphasis on "looking for". We also want that path to survival to not be worse than the climate change itself.

Best,

-Slashy

[Special Agent Sigvan]

So why do we have this thread? If we're universally screwed, no point ranting about it.

We're screwed? Don't reiterate it. It helps nothing.

[Wanderfound]

So why do we have this thread? If we're universally screwed, no point ranting about it.

We're screwed? Don't reiterate it. It helps nothing.

To agree and disagree:

If we take action of appropriate magnitude in the near future we still have a decent prospect of making ourselves substantially less screwed. The house being on fire already is not a good reason to continue pouring petrol on it.

But the barriers to having that action occur are political, not scientific. And hence beyond the scope of this forum; the inevitably political discussion around barriers to climate action would not be suited to the social norms here.

Apart from anything else, the usually beneficial rules of enforced politeness here prohibit treating denialist misinformation with the contempt it deserves. Compulsory civility can be used to manufacture false equivalency, and as the recent debate around vaccination shows, there are times when massed withering scorn is the most appropriate and effective response to harmful nonsense.

So I mostly stay out of these threads apart from providing an occasional reference.

Discussing climate change, and advocating for responses to it, is extremely important. But doing it here will achieve little apart from ruining the civility of the forums, and it is an issue of sufficient importance that it's worth advocating for in venues where it can be given the full-throated support it deserves.

So thinks me, anyway. YMMV.