Use more Gender-neutral Language

[RainDreamer]

For me, the "man" in "Unmanned" is like the "man" in "Human". For most parts, it seems like they are either using the gender-neutral sense of the word, or they are referring to specific characters. However there are cases like the hitchhiker where it is referring to a hypothetical person, and in those case gender neutral language is preferred.

I also like to see some feminine pronoun to be use sometimes too to refer to specific character. Like when they talk about an engineer doing something to one part in the description, it wouldn't hurt if there are female characters and that female engineer are mentioned using female pronouns.

[stibbons]

For anybody unsure of why gendered terms are problematic in English, and some suggestions for how to deal with them, http://theconversation.com/gender-neutral-communication-how-to-do-it-38383 is a great start.

[Dodgey]

I disagree. Didn't you watch The Iron Giant? You are who you choose to be, not what other people expect you to be! Stereotypes make people feel like they have to fit into those stereotypes, cause they are a social animal.

Stereotypes are social short cuts which allow us to reach an assessment about someone more efficiently than starting from scratch. For example if you are at a nightclub there is a stereotype that females are attracted to males. This is backed up the vast majority of the population self identifying as straight. This is simply an extension of our innate trait of pattern seeking. The issue with stereotypes arises when people judge people for being different to the established stereotypes. Like it or not there are always going to be stereotypes, this is not going to change, what needs to happen is that people need to stop judging people based on these stereotypes.

To say that stereotypes are bad because people are judged because of them is like saying nuclear research is bad because people make nuclear bombs.

Going back to the topic words such as "manned", "unmanned" ect are in today's society are considered to be gender neutral, to say otherwise is to draw conclusions and connections where there are none.

[Frozen_Heart]

"man" is part of many words in the English language, with "mankind" being perhaps the best example. This is just how this language works.

Omitting a huge chunk of the language to stop very small groups being offended is silly.

[BudgetHedgehog]

Wait wait wait, did we check with the kerbals to see what pronoun they prefer? Or what species they are feeling like before they set off? Are all their headmates and systems ready for departure? What if someone in their headspace is groundkin? It'd be torture to put them in space!

"Kerbal Space Centre ground to a halt today after a necessary check to ensure no feelings were hurt during pre-launch checks"

EDIT: I'm all for gender equality. I'm all for saying that lady kerbals are a thing and that some brilliant scientists are female gendered, I think that's great. But 'unmanned' does not mean 'doesn't have a man onboard', it means 'doesn't have anyone on board'. Simple as.

Edited March 9, 2015 by ObsessedWithKSP

[KSK]

I already use "Crewed" personally, not due to gender but due to it being a more appropriate word as capsules contain crew and Kerbals aren't human.

This. Exactly this.

[zekew11]

I'm surprised by the generally negative reception this has gotten, so allow me to post some thoughts...

manned vs crewed:

this one shouldn't even be a discussion. It isn't that some great and mighty good is accomplished by this change, but rather that it is so easy to make and has no detriment to anything. thus the threshold for implementation/ "that's a good idea" should be quite low. the reality that these are kerbals should be enough to have an intern to a five minute find and replace session on the game's text assets. thats literally all it is... most of the negative feedback here is basically "Manned is already neutral so I can't be assed". while many interpret manned to be neutral, a growing number don't. seeing as "crewed" is also neutral and correct, beyond not wanting to be bothered, I fail to see the relevance. If there' a risk that changing to "crewed" is a good idea: do it! Additionally, man is only neutral if it is referring to humans... so either way you look at it "manned" can safely be flagged as a bug. harmless bug, you may argue, though some may disagree, but a bug no less.

pronouns and larger issues:

This is a lot about who is using the game and what messages the game is sending. kerbal space program has been lauded a great deal as an education tool and something that gets kids interested in math and science. so lets talk about messages we can send to impressionable young people. I'll share a quick story. I was a boy, probably around twelve, visiting a cousin's house. At one point she began playing a game on her computer, to which i took immediate interest. it was a western game, I can't remember many details. What I distinctly remember was a female lead character and a pink ui. I also distinctly remember wanting to be interested in the game, and secretly being very interested, but feeling guilty about liking a girly game.

At present, Kerbal Space Program probably does something similar to a twelve year old girl. There is in no place a female... anything... Not only does this make KSP a "boys game" but it also reinforces the idea that these great rocket scientists, astronauts, adventures, and executives--- heck, even the engineers and ground crew running around the VAB, are necessarily male. We don't even think about these kinds of things, but games like this create de facto images of what the world is. It really probably is important to envision a fantasy land where the best of kerbal kind is a mix of both genders. Then at least we're sending our kids into the world thinking that thats the way it ought to be. I would hate for a girl to put down ksp after launching an all male crew hired after setting up a strategy with one of the space program's four important males because its a boys's game, knowing that the 12 year old boy who picked it up was inspired to study aerospace engineering. If we have the opportunity to shape young people so profoundly with this game, then it seems absolutely within its scope to at least make an effort to see to it that the opportunity to be shaped exists equally for both halves of the population. That doesn't mean we have to rewrite the english language or that everyone who say's "manned" is a woman-hating monster. It just means that its probably good to be conscious, responsible citizens of our world, and role models to our youth.

[Frozen_Heart]

Wait wait wait, did we check with the kerbals to see what pronoun they prefer? Or what species they are feeling like before they set off? Are all their headmates and systems ready for departure? What if someone in their headspace is groundkin? It'd be torture to put them in space!

Oh great I have to put up with this kind of thing here as well. Good job internet.

[Red Iron Crown]

I don't see any harm in making the part names and descriptions more gender-neutral, and I generally prefer the term "crewed" over "manned" (though I don't consider "manned" offensive). It's a shame that english isn't better equipped pronoun-wise; everything is either male, female, or inanimate unless you use pronouns that hardly anyone understands because they're so uncommon.

[amorymeltzer]

WOW, a lot more feedback than I expected! I'm glad to see everyone express their opinion. Most, obviously, are in opposition, but I appreciate that. I think zekew11 provides a really good explanation of why I put this forward, and would suggest everyone read it. I won't go repeat the reasons why, but my short rebuttal is that it took me all of five minutes to find these things - it's a gain, perhaps a small gain to some, for a very, very minimal amount of effort. When Valentina enters the game, (at least one of) the female Kerbals is supposed to be "just as bad-ass as Jeb, as ingenious as Bill or as smart as Bob"; it would be nice to see it (and, frankly, just as scared, courageous, and stupid as the others).

As far as the "manned" V "crewed" thing goes, yes, we all use "manned" to refer to everyone, but that doesn't make it good and it doesn't make it gender-neutral. "Man" may be the stand in for all humans or all Kerbals, but I'll remind you all that no less an authority than J. R. R. Tolkien saw fit to draw a distinction:

A cold voice answered: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.â€Â

A sword rang as it was drawn. “Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.â€Â

“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!â€Â

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel.

“But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.â€Â

[pincushionman]

To all you noting that "man" is used all over as a root in English, that's exactly the point of the OP. English is saturated with such language - a man is the default "actor" on the language. Whether that's intentional or not isn't important; that's the impression that's given.

Other languages may or may not be better about it, but remember that for a long time in English-speaking culture, gender inequality was the norm, so no one who cared was in a position to do much about it. And that's still the case today, much as we'd like to think otherwise.

But switching to "krewed" (j/k, "crewed") or "kerbed" (that's what I call it, btw) would be a step in the right direction, to show that we're willing to make a language change in support of a culture change.

Sorry for anyone who read quickly after my "first" post - the mobile editor tends to go off half-cocked and I only had the first paragraph half-done.

Edited March 9, 2015 by pincushionman

[Guest]

I support thus suggestion, especially with the addition of female Kerbals to the game.

[Sampa]

I do NOT support this suggestion. By its very useage, the word "manned" is gender neutral.

[Wahgineer]

man

woman

manned

mankind

human

almost every word referring to the human race is based off of man. Does it really matter?

[GusTurbo]

I've always found it a little awkward to say "manned" because Kerbals aren't human, so I would support a change on that reason as well. I also feel like "crewed" is a better fit functionally. A capsule that is "manned" is Spam-in-a-can, while one that is "crewed" has someone aboard capable of serving a role and accomplishing things.

[Arugela]

Isn't there some rule about not bringing up political things. The point of this seems like nothing else. Why not just stop these conversations all together? The people writing them seem to be doing nothing but trying to push some agenda.... It's very annoying!

[RainDreamer]

As long as it has not devolved into a flamewar and biomass got thrown into engine bells, civil discussion of politics are allowed....provided that they are on topic. They are not off topic here though, people. We are talking about very simple things of calling something one way or another here, not pushing a crusade for anything.

[Kibble]

almost every word referring to the human race is based off of man. Does it really matter?

That's not true. At least half the English words referring to Homo Sapiens are derived from Proto-Indo-European words - PIE pleh means "to fill". This evolved into the Latin populus, which became "people", "popular", and "plebeian". Other words came from deh meaning "to divide", becoming Ancient Greek demos, serving as the root for "democracy" and "demographics".

[Arugela]

Who is we? The fact you say we would imply you are... And the reason for the post(or your postings)... Whether it's "conscious or not."

[Red Iron Crown]

Isn't there some rule about not bringing up political things. The point of this seems like nothing else. Why not just stop these conversations all together? The people writing them seem to be doing nothing but trying to push some agenda.... It's very annoying!

Please don't backseat moderate, there's a rule about that, too.

There are rules against political discussions, but this isn't one, so far at least. That said the moderation team is watching this thread closely, please stick to the topic. If you find the topic itself or some posters' views annoying, just move along to another thread.

[Psycix]

As long as it has not devolved into a flamewar and biomass got thrown into engine bells, civil discussion of politics are allowed....provided that they are on topic. They are not off topic here though, people. We are talking about very simple things of calling something one way or another here, not pushing a crusade for anything.

The origin of the suggestion is clear.

Being pedantic about gender neutrality of words that have been used in unisex context for decades simply because they have the word 'man' in it is definitely part of a certain crusade.

[Red Iron Crown]

Disagreeing with suggestion = OK

Accusing those of making suggestion of having some agenda = Not OK

Disagree with the suggestion if you like, but leave the motives out of this discussion, please.

[Sampa]

Disagreeing with suggestion = OK

Accusing those of making suggestion of having some agenda = Not OK

Disagree with the suggestion if you like, but leave the motives out of this discussion, please.

THANK you RIC!

[Norpo]

Now, i'm going to do away with the argument that kerbals aren't human, which is perfectly valid but too dang confusing. Would you consider this a "manned" boat?

I'd say you might if it was in the water and maybe wearing a captains hat and paddling in the water, even though that's a freakin' CAT.

"Manned" is an english term for: and I quote: "Transporting, operated by, or performed by a human or humans: a manned spacecraft; several manned lunar landings." mild misuse of words is common in the english language, mainly for clarity. Now, we could say "crewed", but that's a "group of persons involved in a particular kind of work or working together". No good! While "person" could definitely be assigned to Kerbals, it couldn't be assigned to a cat. Also, would it be a group of one? It gets confusing.

"Womanned" isn't a word. Therefore, I submit that "manned" IS the gender-neutral term. Manned DOES have a gender-specific definition, but it doesn't really apply here, at all. It's "(Military) supplied or equipped with men, esp soldiers". I don't think kerbals are military, or soldiers. Unless you're writing some fan-fic, you really don't have to care.

English is a weird language. Odd phrasing in the game isn't just limited to this, it's present everywhere in the game.

"Cubic Octagonal Strut"

It's, uh, cubic? And octagonal?

At least "manned" is in usage enough, and has a definition that it makes sense. According to dictionary.com, "manned" is in more common usage than "crewed".

Also, in space-flight, the wikipedia page on human spaceflight uses the word "crewed" twice, and "manned" a whopping 10 times. "NASA and ESA use the term "human spaceflight" to refer to their programs of launching people into space. These endeavors have also been referred to as "manned space missions." -New signature quote, for sure.

As far as I can tell, "manned" is more used in spaceflight, while "crewed" is used more generally (but less common)

Both have reasons to use them, none seem really important. Both are valid, perhaps equally so.

EDIT: Also, this discussion isn't limited to KSP, apparently. Look at the wikipedia talk page on human spaceflight.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Norpo
talk

[Arugela]

Cubic octagonal is actually correct practically. The top facing side is octagonal. The side is cubic. IE four sides. A 3d shape of this sort is defined by the characteristics of multiple 2d shapes to make it up from the various dimensions it holds. If it were octagonal/octagonal it would be s spherical object with faces made up of nothing but octagonal faces.