Discovery / doing actual science

[Twreed87]

I know an element of this was at one point talking about as a planned feature, but I haven't heard anything about it in a long time.

What if when you start a new career mode, very little is known about the system. You enter map view, and you can see the side of Mun facing Kerbin, but the side opposite is a complete blur. Duna and Eve are very low resolution, and Eeloo the moons of Jool aren't even there at all. You access the info for these bodies, and much of the information (mass, gravity, atmosphere) is either unknown or an approximation.

In order to unlock this information, you have to do science. There could be a new building at KSC, a telescope, that as you upgrade gives clearer pictures of distant bodies. Orbital telescopes could be constructed that would further this. You could also attach cameras to probes and send them out to the body. Info about the atmosphere of Eve could only be obtained after sending the barometer there and using it, gravity by doing a gravity scan, etc. Imagine being able to click the info box on a body and watch as that information is filled in, as a record of what you've accomplished. It would be a reason to keep doing science after you've unlocked the tech tree, and to make science actually feel like science, instead of just some points you use to get tech.

Thoughts?

[CrayzeeMonkey]

I love this.

When planets were first added in 0.17, i thought it was impossible to focus in on another planet by double clicking on it, and i've always wanted to LEGITIMATELY get into orbit around one of the planets, i worked extremely hard to get these planets, building giant rockets and doing all sorts of calculations.

Until i accidentally double clicked a planet on the Tracking Station and was able to see Duna in full detail. After this I've lost the will to explore, and i don't think the new career and science mode is very motivational (I think it's quite tedious and needs polishing). And i've been building tanks (No, i mean the warry type) ever since.

I'd love to see this in the game and feel like legitimately exploring a new planet for Kerbal kind. I think these telescopes shouldn't provide too much detail, or not add them at all. If they are added, the data should be used as planning (As in, where to land).

[Twreed87]

It feels wrong that I can look at Eeloo in full detail without ever having so much as sent a probe to it. Telescopes would get you only so much resolution (similar to what we have of Pluto while we wait for New Horizons to arrive), and probe cameras would increase that. The cameras could be similar to ScanSat, as you orbit above the terrain, it would be cleared up, with the resolution increasing by distance.

This would actually make me kinda wish I was coming into the game fresh. Imagine not know what planets are even out there, or what they're like. You get the telescope and discover Eeloo, but have only a vague idea how big it is, and you have no idea if it has an atmosphere or not. So you gotta send a probe first to find out.

This would a great addition to make when they get around to adding new planets, say GP2 and its moons. Then they don't realease any images of the new stuff, and wait for the community to discover it themselves (probably by just going into sandbox)

[sumghai]

The one form of science I've always felt was missing from KSP was the ability to determine the composition of a planet's soil, atmosphere and/or ocean through sample collection and statistical analysis - the more samples collected, the more accurate the composition pie chart would become.

As may have been hinted by Squad in certain places, a resource system featuring sample collection / analysis / return as well as mining / processing / storage has been suggested for an as-yet undetermined future release of KSP. This would be an additional justification / goal for players to send spacecraft to other planets/moons (in addition to flying Jeb and his flag there, of course ) - the ability to do real science.

While the actual implementation is still quite far off in the horizon, I figured I'd start a thread anyway detailing some of my ideas and musings, which could be potentially applicable to both the stock game and mods such as Kethane, Extraplanetary Space Centers and tek Industries Science.

What Squad has WIP'ed so far...

(Note that these may not necessarily represent the what Squad will ultimately implement - I've simply relinked them from the last known reddit thread for your viewing convenience)

• Spacecraft-mounted scanners (Long range directional, Short range omnidirectional)
  
• Drills (for acquiring Solids and Liquids)
  
• Storage containers
  
• Various refiners (1, 2) / chemical processors (Small, Medium and Large)
  
• A tentative list of resources, (prototype) resources map for each planet and a (now-outdated) resources flow chart describing how said resources would be turned into spaceflight consumables such as fuel and life support - it has been speculated by the reddit thread author that Squad is going to simplify the processors to be able to handle a variety of resources (rather than overspecializing by having one dedicated processor per resource).
  

My own musings...

Initial Surveying / Sampling

• At the very beginning of a new savegame, players would immediately be able to view Kerbin's resource map for its surface, oceans and atmosphere, without needing to do any additional prospecting / science (I presume Kerbals would already know their home planet's composition well enough). Conversely, the resource map for other planets would initially be blank.
  
• The scanner array(s) would be used to provide very rough surveys of other planets and moons from orbit - they would probably detect the presence of certain resources and locations where they are generally found, but little about their actual quantity / proportion / purity.
  
• Ground-based robotic or crewed missions would be required to obtain better data through sample collection / statistical analysis missions
  
  • Units of rock, liquid and gas samples would be collected by Kerbals on EVA or dedicated robotic arms
    
    • Rock samples provide data for surface makeup
      
    • Liquid samples provide data for ocean makeup (or additionally, underground crude oil-like substances such as the namesake of the Kethane mod)
      
    • Gas samples provide data for atmospheric makeup
      

    [*]Each sample obtained would contain differing proportions of selected substances found on that planet/moon

    • The rationale for this is that one does not simply have samples purely made up of whatever
      
    • Sample #005 may contain 45% Metaxium / 10% Blutonium / 30% Alium / 14% Kerbon / 1% UNKNOWN SUBSTANCE 06
      
    • Sample #021 may contain 67% Metaxium / 30% Zanotite / 3% UNKNOWN SUBSTANCE 02
      

    [*]The more samples one gathers, the more accurate the final resource map for that planet would be

    [*]"Known" resources are those that are already also found on Kerbin - it is enough to simply identify them and the proportion present in each sample

    [*]"Unknown" or "Rare" resources are those that are not found on Kerbin - a sample return mission is required so that Kerbal scientists back home can properly study it

    • Once sample(s) containing unknown substance(s) is/are successfully returned, new resource names are automatically added to the resource map list
      
    • e.g. UNKNOWN SUBSTANCE 06 will automatically be renamed to Jebedynium, for instance
      

Prospecting / Mining / Processing / Storing Resources

• A combination of orbital scanning and ground sampling would be used to determine which sites give the best purity for whatever resource the player is interested in mining
  
• Resources would be mined via various parts
  
  • Certain part types would limit where resources could be obtained
    
    • Drills acquire solid resources from the surface
      
    • Drills with pump attachments acquire liquids from below the surface (again, think Kethane)
      
    • Pumps acquire resources from oceans
      
    • Intakes acquire resources from the atmosphere
      

    [*]Parts of the same type would be able to mine all types resources found in their specific region, and differ only in extraction rate and efficiency

    • i.e. Pumps PX-100 and PX-200 are able to acquire the same resources, but the PX-200 works twice as fast
      

  [*]Refiners would be able to purify solids into any mineral-based resource desired

  [*]Chemical processors would be able to purify any liquids or gases desired

  [*]Bulk and fluid storage tanks are able to store any proportion / type of refined solids and liquids respectively (e.g. any combo of minerals can go into one bulk storage tank)

Using Resources

• Liquids and gases can be used to fuel rockets or supply life support systems (similar to Kethane)
  
• Minerals or metals can be used to fabricate basic spacecraft components such as fuselages and fuel tanks (like the "ore" used in Extraplanetary Space Centers)
  
• Rare resources would most likely be semi-conductor like minerals used for making more hi-tech components such as SAS, command pod instruments
  
  • May also reduce the cost / weight & increase the performance of basic components
    

  [*]Refined resources can be flown back to Kerbin - if resources are involved in career mode, this could be a source of financial revenue / means of replenishing part stocks

...And how to potentially implement them (from a code perspective)

Initial Surveying / Sampling

• The resources map proportions for each planet and moon are actually predetermined and hard-coded into KSP itself.
  
• A proposed resources.cfg for each savegame would contain:
  
  • An initial seed for the random deposits location/quantity generation (sharing seeds results in identical deposit locations)
    
  • Resource names and proportions available on each planet / moon (initially blank - populated through gameplay)
    
  • Deposit locations / purity (initially blank - populated through gameplay)
    

  [*]When players start with simple orbital scans of various planets and moons, the persistence file is updated to store the names of the resources found on said planet/moon, along with a quantity of 0%

  • This would be displayed in-game as "present" i.e. Kerbon - present
    

  [*]When players collect physical rock/liquid/gas samples:

  • The presence and proportions of resources are NOT stored on a per-sample basis (massive data overhead!)
    
  • Rather, Kerbals on EVA and robot samplers would simply have a incremented "SampleCount" up to their "MaxSampleCapacity"
    

  [*]When these samples are offloaded into analysis parts:

  • The code simply loops through the the number of samples deposited
    
  • For each sample/loop iteration, dummy variables are used to temporary hold resource names and quantities
    
  • The composition of each sample is randomly generated, but strongly determined by the hard-coded proportions for each planet
    
    • e.g. Assume Duna is hard coded to have 75% Metaxium on its surface
      
    • Therefore any given rock sample is more likely to mostly contain Metaxium
      
    • The actual quantity of Metaxium returned as outpost from any particular sample may actually be anywhere between, say 25% to 50%
      

    [*]The results for each sample are averaged out and written back to resources.cfg map, as the "actual" resources map proportion for each planet/moon

    • i.e. only the final running average for the whole planet/moon is stored
      

    [*]The more samples one collects, the closer the savegame's data tends towards the hard-coded ideal values

  [*]Example:

  • At the start of the savegame, nothing is known about the Mun's composition
    
  • Internally in KSP, the Mun may have hardcoded resource proportions of 10% A, 20% B, 30% C and 40% D
    
  • When a player scans the Mun, resources A, B, C and D will be detected but their quantities will be unknown
    
    • i.e. A - present, B - present, C - present, D - present
      

    [*]When a player analyses their first rock sample, the random number generator may assign said sample as having 70% A, 20% B and 10% D

    • Mun Resources map is now updated to A - 70%, B - 20%, C - present, D - 10%
      
    • Obviously this is grossly inaccurate compared to the overall hardcoded figure, but remember that we've only taken one sample
      

    [*]By rock sample #025, the figures might get averaged out to:

    • A - 12%, B - 18%, C - 33%, D - 37%
      
    • Basically, the more samples we take, the closer we tend towards the "ideal" hardcoded proportions
      

Prospecting / Mining / Processing / Storing Resources

• Improved orbital scans would result in deposit locations/quantities/purities being written to the resources.cfg savefile (much like kethane's own kethane.cfg)
  
• Deposit quantities would limit how much resources can be extracted before the deposit runs out
  
• Deposit purities would determine the extraction rate for any extractor part
  
• Processing efficiencies would further influence the amount of purified resource actually obtained
  
• Storage is already implemented in-game
  

[CrayzeeMonkey]

I wonder, since chemical composition determines a material's color. Telescopes could analyze light reflected off a planet to determine something about it's atmosphere's chemical composition. I think that's how scientists determine the atmospheres of exoplanetary worlds. This could give a vague color to the planet on the map view.

[sumghai]

I wonder, since chemical composition determines a material's color. Telescopes could analyze light reflected off a planet to determine something about it's atmosphere's chemical composition. I think that's how scientists determine the atmospheres of exoplanetary worlds. This could give a vague color to the planet on the map view.

Yeah, I think that's how it's done IRL.

Of course, such an analysis would most likely be an estimate, and would still require actual atmospheric gas samples to confirm the observations.

[Capt Snuggler]

I wonder, since chemical composition determines a material's color. Telescopes could analyze light reflected off a planet to determine something about it's atmosphere's chemical composition. I think that's how scientists determine the atmospheres of exoplanetary worlds. This could give a vague color to the planet on the map view.

The spectrometer tech required to be able to determine a planets mass and gravity well from a distance would take a serious R&D commitment, but in KSP it seems we have that ability from day one before we even launch our first satellite.

I would love a more deep and insightful science and discovery system tied to a multi tiered R&D tech tree but as squad races towards v1.0 it seems less and less likely that we will get it.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Capt Snuggler

[tater]

This is the primary problem with the entire science/gameplay model for KSP. I'd argue that for replay you'd also want the Kerbol system randomized (at least as an option) each game. Different size/mass worlds, different atmospheres, different orbits.

Science from Kerbin would give you at least some idea of all the worlds (except perhaps very small moons). You'd have masses, and gross atmospheric data, but details would need to be unlocked via real exploration. You don't even need easter eggs, just a system for creating possibly novel topographies (within reason) so that your first view upon sending a probe might be really amazing.

Sumghai has some great ideas, above. There was as similar discussion (not as nitty gritty) in a thread about cameras as parts a while back I posted some ideas:

Cameras could in addition provide USEFUL science. Not "points," but something you can use.

Simple useful metric for cameras:

1. Add a value for the visual point of view altitude for map view. The farther from Kerbin a world is, the higher alt the map will be at full zoom, commensurate with what you could see from a telescope at Kerbin. Jool, Duna, Dres, for example will only "zoom" in map view to about what you might see out the window of your pod at the first point the planet renders at all. Utterly useless, in other words.

2. Putting cameras near any world (SoI?) improves the POV altitude based upon the flyby distance, and camera type down to some altitude above current map POV minimum alt.

3. Putting a camera in orbit drops it farther based upon the apoapsis and periapsis, and perhaps the inclination (require an inclined orbit at some level for a mapping mission, not just equatorial). With the better camera, and a high-gain antenna, the POV altitude then starts to improve upon the current situation, and at some level of mapping the map view would become as good as the "real" view (allowing later players to plan landings on the Mun down to the smallest craters, for example, never really leaving map view if they like).

Edited April 7, 2015 by tater

[klgraham1013]

I agree completely. I'd much rather have real science and exploration, or a simplification there of, than what Squad decided to go with. Back in 0.18, I envisioned we'd, one day, be able to build the Hubble telescope. Possibly one of the most recognizable pieces of science engineering. I imagined space stations doing long term science experiments and rovers that could do surface analysis on distant worlds. Instead, we got mystery goo and generic science lab.

I feel like this was a huge missed opportunity to introduce people to why science and space exploration is worth doing and what it's actually all about.

[Robotengineer]

I too agree completely. However, I seriously doubt this will be in 1.0 or 1.1, simply because it would require an extensive rework of the code behind the science system. I think it would make a good 1.2 or 1.3 update after the migration to U5 and the implementation of multiplayer are done.

I would like to add another science idea, Kerbal Medical Science, where you would have to study the effects of 0g, radiation, and other effects of space travel on Kerbals, then upgrade parts to include exercise equipment, and other things for long distance missions.

[regex]

People, remember, this is a "tycoon" game where we manage a space program, not a science simulator.

And it's really too bad that train left the station. This and other good suggestions have been brought up many times before, to better engage the player with meaningful gameplay, but it's ptobably a better idea to stick with refining the grind-based progression we have right now.

[tater]

Sadly it's not even a tycoon game, regex, as there is no real management involved, at all, and can't be, really since time doesn't matter. For "management" game I'd expect some fixed and some recurring costs, and construction and development times so I would have to balance things like sticking with a "production" rocket to pay the bills, vs spending on novel, new crafts that might or might now be cost-effective. Sigh.

So is it possible to do a total makeover (as a mod) of the career using the tools we have? For example, could you make the map view disallow zooming past the camera at some point in space that is determined by how close you have visited before? I'm not even wanting a "science" simulator, I just want to have to do USEFUL "science" from a gameplay standpoint. No good map view unless you photograph the planet, and even that depends on what resolution camera. Radar mappers for planets with an atmosphere (course we'd need clouds)…

Maybe KSP 2.0?

[Capt Snuggler]

I too agree completely. However, I seriously doubt this will be in 1.0 or 1.1, simply because it would require an extensive rework of the code behind the science system. I think it would make a good 1.2 or 1.3 update after the migration to U5 and the implementation of multiplayer are done.

doubt it. I wish and hope you are right but I doubt it. at this point I'm skeptical that multiplayer will happen and even if it does it will likely be a half baked tacked on affair.

real science, Life support, multi-tier tech tree, telescopes and orbital mapping, robotic rovers, automated flight controllers, in situ resource utilization, useful space stations, useful satellites, CLOUDS!

so many missed opportunities

Maybe KSP 2.0?

Edited April 7, 2015 by Capt Snuggler

[klgraham1013]

Real science, Life support, multi-tier tech tree, telescopes and orbital mapping, robotic rovers, automated flight controllers, in situ resource utilization, useful space stations, useful satellites, CLOUDS!

All of this, but I'll try not to stray to far from the original topic.

[ilo]

time ago we talked about this..http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/112533-Mod-that-makes-planets-and-moons-%28except-for-close-side-of-moon%29-whited-out-until-you-explore-it

the problems I foresee is the amount of work integrating other mods.. RSS, weather, telescopes, scans at, and all the resource-stuff coming too..

[tater]

time ago we talked about this..http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/112533-Mod-that-makes-planets-and-moons-%28except-for-close-side-of-moon%29-whited-out-until-you-explore-it

the problems I foresee is the amount of work integrating other mods.. RSS, weather, telescopes, scans at, and all the resource-stuff coming too..

Good thread. Fixing this makes me want to dig in and learn to start modding KSP myself, frankly.

[Robotengineer]

Good thread. Fixing this makes me want to dig in and learn to start modding KSP myself, frankly.

It's too bad this part of the game isn't moddable.

[tater]

It's too bad this part of the game isn't moddable.

Yeah, and it is the most broken part… the actual "game" aspect, vs the "simulation" aspect (any attempt to model something real at any level is "simulation," I'm not saying KSP is even "orbiter" under the hood by any possible stretch of the imagination, it's a simulation, just a very low-order simulation ).

[Hcube]

The spectrometer tech required to be able to determine a planets mass and gravity well from a distance would take a serious R&D commitment, but in KSP it seems we have that ability from day one before we even launch our first satellite

Hey, IRL you need no spectrometer to determine a planet's mass and gravity well : As long as the planet has a moon that you can see, Kepler 3rd law is your friend...

So the fact that Kerbals know the gravitational characteristics and the mass of Eve, Jool and Duna is pretty normal

Still, i support the idea of having telescopes and discoveries : it would feel like i'm discovering the game ovevr and over again everytime i start a new save.

[Mr. Scruffy]

As i said on other occassions - i am fine if all these things cant be done by 1.0 and everything 1.x will be optimization/big fixing, and everything else will need extra funding to go for KSP2. But i really wish it would happen someday. There is a certain vision that many share, at least partially, and i have no doubt it´s in the devs hearts too somewhere. If it takes commitment on our side, to back again, i´d in for it even with the current 1.0 plan, which is, frankly, a bit dissappointing from a hopes-POV, but indubitely fair from a price/value POV.

EDIT: If they dont share that vision (or are simply a bit fed up with the project after all these years), i´d humbly ask them to NOT sell the franchise, but pass it on, to some indie-devs, like they once were, to carry on with it, the way they started it. Maybe rent it out, so once they see what fresh minds do to it, they can take it back for 3, or something (renting franchises is totally underrated, imho - we´d have a true somethingsomething X, by now, for sure, if that had been done more).

Edited April 7, 2015 by Mr. Scruffy

[tater]

Squad said they really wanted to revamp science as it was in early, and not what they wanted (perhaps past 1.0?).

Sumghai has some good ideas above, as does the thread linked by ilo, and also the Cameras and Telescopes thread.

From a gameplay standpoint, "doing actual science" is most important if doing so gives the player some sort of useful data. Squad tends to not like to give the player much information ("kerbals, explosions, yay!" (not at all my style of play)). That said, perhaps doing actual science could UNLOCK information they don't give out in addition to other ideas (improving result ion of map mode (easily done via limiting zoom)).

Examples:

Orbital mapping (insert vehicle into a polar orbit and make XX orbits to map the surface---includes radar mapping). The game is presumably adding more functionality in the game for the late tech tree via resource scanning. Use it FOR SCIENCE! (and gameplay) by having scans free up map zoom down to seeing small hazards with enough data).

Flyby mapping (generates less science broadly, but the amount varies based upon approach distance). With scansat-like stuff in stock, this can merely be a subset of the mapping.

Impact probes combined with other instruments. (place seismometer, then impact the surface at some velocity, or impact at some high velocity and observe with an instrument in orbit (or at Kerbin, but with LOS)). This data can provide "biome" info (really something other than biome for all but kerbin) as a map marker.

Sample return. This could mark geological markers on the map from the location taken ("biomes").

Atmospheric data (currently a thing, but nothing useful comes of it). Have this unlock suggestions about aerobraking? Or it might unlock trajectory paths through the atmosphere for accurate reentries (what that one mod does).

Science from orbit (manned). This would be related to life support if that was a thing, ever (do this kind of science enough and all habitable parts have improvements in LS by some amount).

Parts testing. Certain (better designed from, well, ANY in the current game) parts testing missions might unlock dv information?

Are there any other game aids that "science" could reasonably unlock? I'm trying to stick within the current format as much as possible in terms of career, because sadly it's not going to change.

[nholzric]

Are there any other game aids that "science" could reasonably unlock? I'm trying to stick within the current format as much as possible in terms of career, because sadly it's not going to change.

One "game aid" that science could conceivably unlock is late game life-support. There's a related thread linked below; it's so stunningly brilliant that no one could think of anything to add.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/114336-Mission-Pacing-Life-Support-and-Tech-Tree-Fixed%21

The way I see it, you can unlock most of the current tech tree by doing mission in and around Kerbin/Mun/Minmus and these missions rarely last more than a week. This means some sort of simple life-support system can be included in each capsule that lasts about a week but if you want to send Kerbals beyond Minmus you'll need regenerative snacks. By placing life support at the end of the tech tree this not only synchronizes nicely with the mission pace - just when you need longer-than-week mission you begin unlocking those capabilities, but it makes the science from the rest of the solar system useful in unlocking the life support stuff, AND life-support is a reasonable thing to unlock by space research (crew reports, EVA reports, materials bay, goo bay, pressure sensor, atmospheric sensor).

I hear what you're saying about "game aids" and understand life-support isn't exactly what you meant - it's an "artificial" limitation not an extra readout to help you fly rockets better. But not only does this idea hit on a number of other points but I think it may be as close as solution as we could reasonably get.

[klgraham1013]

If life support gets added, it need to be one of the first things you unlock. Just because you can unlock the entire tree by biome jumping, doesn't mean everyone wants to. Personally, I'd much rather head to Duna than hop around the Mun for science.

[tater]

One "game aid" that science could conceivably unlock is late game life-support. There's a related thread linked below; it's so stunningly brilliant that no one could think of anything to add.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/114336-Mission-Pacing-Life-Support-and-Tech-Tree-Fixed%21

The way I see it, you can unlock most of the current tech tree by doing mission in and around Kerbin/Mun/Minmus and these missions rarely last more than a week. This means some sort of simple life-support system can be included in each capsule that lasts about a week but if you want to send Kerbals beyond Minmus you'll need regenerative snacks. By placing life support at the end of the tech tree this not only synchronizes nicely with the mission pace - just when you need longer-than-week mission you begin unlocking those capabilities, but it makes the science from the rest of the solar system useful in unlocking the life support stuff, AND life-support is a reasonable thing to unlock by space research (crew reports, EVA reports, materials bay, goo bay, pressure sensor, atmospheric sensor).

I hear what you're saying about "game aids" and understand life-support isn't exactly what you meant - it's an "artificial" limitation not an extra readout to help you fly rockets better. But not only does this idea hit on a number of other points but I think it may be as close as solution as we could reasonably get.

Excellent points. (I'd have commented had I seen it, actually ).

Making time matter in general helps the game immeasurably.

Your ideas around stock LS mimic elements of Roverdude's new LS mod in development, actually. He has a 15 day (kerbal day, I assume) grace period for LS for all pods, then consumables are required (plus charge).

Having advanced LS appear at some point in the tree, and not all at once, is a way to scale difficulty better, as well, since a fundamental issue with KSP from a game standpoint is that it is hardest at the beginning of the game.

[Twreed87]

If life support gets added, it need to be one of the first things you unlock. Just because you can unlock the entire tree by biome jumping, doesn't mean everyone wants to. Personally, I'd much rather head to Duna than hop around the Mun for science.

Life support tech should progress like any other. Each capsule has a certain amount of the resource (snacks). That's enough for that crew to go a few days in orbit. Then you unlock extra containers you can add to the ship to extend that. Make it so that it's not unreasonable to be able to pack enough for a Duna mission and return. Then near the end of the tree you unlock the ability to regenerate snacks (I'm imagining something the size of a hitchhiker container that has like a little farm inside), that would allow you to set up a permanent base.

This game has a fairly natural progression, and just because some people wanna jump the gun doesn't mean the tech tree should cater to that. I could say I wanna send a probe to Eeloo out of the gate, doesn't mean they need to give us RTGs right away.