[With Less Fi] Telepathic Communication via Radio Transmission

[Starwhip]

I'm just chock full of these random things lately, aren't I?

Any of you radio folks out there might be able to shed some light on this for me.

Imagine a creature with some sort of ferrous appendage or body part (Say, it's spinal cord or some other lateral formation). Given the right circumstances and biological functions, could it act as a radio antenna for transmitting or receiving?

Not that these signals would be travelling very far, or have much power.

Speaking of power, how much would be needed for this kind of communication? (Say, one kilometer?)

There exist organisms on Earth that can biologically generate high-voltage currents (Electric eels, for one), so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

A radio transmitter requires a modulator circuit, for which I believe the animal's brain could work.

I don't know about organic amplifiers or impedance matchers, as I don't understand exactly how they work.

Forget whatever evolutionary limitations you know of for a moment, all I want to find out is if this is possible.

If we deem it possible, I'd like to go into more detail with this theory. But that's for a later date, first things first.

Is it possible?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Starwhip

[vger]

I can't think of any reason this couldn't work. Radio is just a wavelength of light, and we have creatures that use light to communicate.

It just doesn't seem likely, because there's much more to gain from light detection in the visible range. Not many things reflect radio waves. It's fine for detecting a metal object coming towards you, but I wouldn't want to try hunting a Gazelle with it.

I don't even know why you referred to this as telekinesis though, because this wouldn't be that at all based on the supernatural definition. The idea of telekinesis is a form of communication that we are either unable to detect, or don't recognize as relevant for communication (like "brain waves").

Edited April 7, 2015 by vger

[Leszek]

Telekinesis is the ability to move things with your mind. I think the word being looked for here is telepathic.

There is nothing inherently supernatural about telepathy, it is just that we aren't and any claim to the contrary has to run from science and hide in the we can't detect world. (Or quantum world or anything else that the pseudo-scientists think they can hide the notion in.) But if ET's could detect radio waves and use them to communicate they would be telepathic in the spirit of the term.

If the goal is to come up with something plausible for telepathy in particular instead of communication by radio waves, then I would go with EM fields. Animals can already detect other animal EM fields, that is how some sharks (IE Hammerhead) hunt. All an animal would have to do is moderate their own EM field for the purpose of communicating.

[Starwhip]

I don't even know why you referred to this as telekinesis though, because this wouldn't be that at all based on the supernatural definition. The idea of telekinesis is a form of communication that we are either unable to detect, or don't recognize as relevant for communication (like "brain waves").

Oh, whoops. Fixed it. Meant "Telepathic".

I like the electromagnetic field manipulation idea, it sounds plausible.

And as for it being "likely", that's besides the point. As stated above, I only want to determine if it's possible.

And possibly use it in a novel. You saw nothing.

[BlueCosmology]

Forget whatever evolutionary limitations you know of for a moment, all I want to find out is if this is possible.

If you forget evolutionary limitations of course it's possible. We already do communicate using radio. The question you're asking is whether or not it's possible for that to evolve in nature, ignoring evolutionary limitations is just ignoring your question.

[Kibble]

It would pretty much bee a form of complex bioluminescence modulation with specially tuned eyes to see the very low wavelength rays.

[Rakaydos]

A creature that can read the electric fields of it's prey's nervus system, knowing which way it will jump before it does so. this same electric telepathy also applies to packmates near enough to "synch" with, allowing them to coordinate even in total darkness.

The only implausable bit is a dedicated "transmitter" for signalling other electrically-sensitive creatures

[Superfluous J]

A creature that can read the electric fields of it's prey's nervus system, knowing which way it will jump before it does so. this same electric telepathy also applies to packmates near enough to "synch" with, allowing them to coordinate even in total darkness.

The only implausable bit is a dedicated "transmitter" for signalling other electrically-sensitive creatures

It's not THAT implausible. Once you have an evolutionary reason to have the detector, you have a reason to evolve the transmitter. Especially if said transmitter could be used to woo a potential mate.

[Rakaydos]

It's not THAT implausible. Once you have an evolutionary reason to have the detector, you have a reason to evolve the transmitter. Especially if said transmitter could be used to woo a potential mate.

Which could lead to an interesting gender dimorphisim, where only the (fe)males are telepathic speakers.

[rtxoff]

If biological body parts could imitate electronic components such as semiconductors, resistors, coils and antenas then yes, a radio emitter made out of biological body parts could be possible then.

However it seems very unlikely to me. Producing an electric charge or having an electric field around a body is very different then actually emitting a modulated radio wave.

[Moesly_Armlis]

Generally in RF the transmitter does all the work and the receiver can use just the power of the transmitter to decode the information. A variable capacitor/inductor(for channel tuning), diode detector circuit (demodulates the signal) and a crystal earpiece (no need for amplifier) is all that is required to receive an AM broadcast.

My view is that the AM receiver is not that complicated and could be replicated in nature. The transmitter with extra power and more complicated circuits, however, would have to be a specialized subset of the species much like Ant Queen.

[Starwhip]

Generally in RF the transmitter does all the work and the receiver can use just the power of the transmitter to decode the information. A variable capacitor/inductor(for channel tuning), diode detector circuit (demodulates the signal) and a crystal earpiece (no need for amplifier) is all that is required to receive an AM broadcast.

My view is that the AM receiver is not that complicated and could be replicated in nature. The transmitter with extra power and more complicated circuits, however, would have to be a specialized subset of the species much like Ant Queen.

If it was greatly beneficial to the species as a whole, I think it is plausible that each member might have a transmitter.

[/desperate_attempt_to_save_plot]

[Rakaydos]

If it was greatly beneficial to the species as a whole, I think it is plausible that each member might have a transmitter.

[/desperate_attempt_to_save_plot]

Or have the colonies become individuals, and have each queen interact with each other queen like people would with other people.

[Starwhip]

Or have the colonies become individuals, and have each queen interact with each other queen like people would with other people.

I don't follow...

[Moesly_Armlis]

Or have the colonies become individuals, and have each queen interact with each other queen like people would with other people.

@Starwhip -> I think its queen to queen communication with members of the colony equating to a hive mind/body. The movie Starship Troopers now comes to my recollection but that was telepathic.

The point I was making is that the AM receiver is dead simple and probably be created biologically. Amplitude modulation is the simplest design for receivers.

It is the transmitter which becomes increasingly complex which has to amplify the modulated RF transmission without causing frequency drift.

Tube technology does not even require semiconductors, just vacuum and thermionic emission. Some hot metal to ionize (cathode) and a surrounding metal layer to receive electrons (anode) enclosed within a vacuum; diode.

The triode is similar to the diode but has a screen surrounding the cathode and by varying the voltage of the screen to control electron flow from cathode to anode and can be used to amplify a signal.

The other bits such as resistors, capacitors and inductors could also be produced biologically.

Impedance matching can be done with stripline circuits or waveguides, however, the wavelength of the transmission would determine the physical size of the creature. Low frequency transmission would need a lot of animal. 1 MHz signal has a wave that is 300 meters, at 1 GHz = 0.3 meters. Usually a portion of the quarter wavelength is used for impedance matching.

This idea is intriguing and from my perspective very possible.

[Starwhip]

The animal in question has a body length of ~5 meters.

[tomf]

The first paragraph of the electric eel article says that they use electric fields to communicate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_eel. I don't think it is inconceivable that given the right pressures they could evolve to expand the range.

[Starwhip]

Indeed, the voltage required for the target 1km range using EM fields would be stupidly high and dangerous. The AM radio transmitter would work better.

And we've determined it to be plausible, if unlikely. Time for phase two:

Evolutionary Factors

How would this come about? Genetic engineering is the easy way out; on top of that it doesn't fit the plot.

What minerals/metals are needed to produce the simplest receiver, and transmitter?

Note that this species is the dominant one on the planet, (though humans are present, they are not natives) and lives in colonies of between 20 and 60 members, each individual supporting the group. Human-level intelligence. So it had plenty of time to evolve without too much environmental pressure.

[impyre]

This could work... quite easily. Realistically speaking, in terms of how they carry information, sound and electromagnetic waves function identically. I've drawn up some ideas to assist in the evolution of synthetic lifeforms, and one of the ideas I included was giving them the ability to communicate with each other over broadband frequencies. The simplest receiver is simply an antenna and a diode... this can pick up and filter amplitude modulation, the simplest transmitter is really just an antenna with an AC signal applied. EM, AM, and FM are all the same thing. AM and FM are specific types of modulation of EM carrier waves. Also, the voltage required for a 1km range isn't much at all (it can be done on 12 volts, possibly less)... the real requirement is power (which can come from higher voltage or higher current... usually a bit of both) many handheld radios have a range much further... and CB radios even further still. For example, the Motorola MR350R has a nominal range of 35miles in a handheld package. In terms of modulation, AM can achieve much greater range, while FM can be filtered for clarity. Considering that voice is basically an AM sound wave, and AM is the simplest to construct/filter, it is the most likely candidate... though I wouldn't rule out FM entirely. As for how this might come about, the biggest odds lie in a situation where the lifeforms in question generate RF signatures as a byproduct of their normal functions... predators would evolve a sense to pick up on this (much like heat sensing vipers, exceptional vision or hearing, echolocation, etc), and then prey would like develop sensitivity to this as well (so as to better self-regulate and/or sense predators, thus negating their advantage). In time, some of them may begin to use these frequencies for communication. If this happened, audible speech might never develop though.

[rtxoff]

On second thought impyre is right, modulation is irrelevant, this creatures could directly transmit their brainwaves with this method. And when receiving them process the information with their brains.

However the power amplifier is still an issue. You can't hope to have any relevant transmitting range without some sort of power amplifier with at least 5W or so. The plausability of such an constant power generation and transformation into an EM wave is questionable.

[Moesly_Armlis]

Here is an idea for a biological antenna, it is called the Minkoski Island patch antenna. This is based on fractal patterns for multi-band frequency response. This antenna type can morph and alter its response for impedance matching for multiple frequencies.

Silver is a great conductor and would reduce the power required. Humans red blood has iron and vulcans with green blood have copper.

(Spock's must have been brown).

Quartz crystals are used to produce the carrier wave and show a great deal of frequency stability over time.

Power is important for long range. Pass on the signal like in a WBAN to reduce power for long range. If you borrow an idea from the movie, Dances with Smurfs (Avatar for those who don't watch S.P.), than have interconnection with all native fauna/flora working as repeaters for extreme long range.

Looking forward to phase three.

[Starwhip]

On second thought impyre is right, modulation is irrelevant, this creatures could directly transmit their brainwaves with this method. And when receiving them process the information with their brains.

However the power amplifier is still an issue. You can't hope to have any relevant transmitting range without some sort of power amplifier with at least 5W or so. The plausability of such an constant power generation and transformation into an EM wave is questionable.

"Constant power generation" would most likely not be a thing. In fact, that would fit both plot and plausibility. If the creature could store high-calorie molecules (Fat or something of the like) for quick use in such a "circuit", then it could use the reserve at a quick pace to generate a lot of power for a relatively short time. (Say, ten minutes of constant power)

Here is an idea for a biological antenna, it is called the Minkoski Island patch antenna. This is based on fractal patterns for multi-band frequency response. This antenna type can morph and alter its response for impedance matching for multiple frequencies.

Silver is a great conductor and would reduce the power required. Humans red blood has iron and vulcans with green blood have copper.

(Spock's must have been brown).

Quartz crystals are used to produce the carrier wave and show a great deal of frequency stability over time.

Power is important for long range. Pass on the signal like in a WBAN to reduce power for long range. If you borrow an idea from the movie, Dances with Smurfs (Avatar for those who don't watch S.P.), than have interconnection with all native fauna/flora working as repeaters for extreme long range.

Looking forward to phase three.

Phase three is where we start to pull everything together and actually have a working biological radio or wi-fi transmitter or whatever it ends up being.

The planet is rich in minerals, so silver conductors wouldn't be so far fetched. Perhaps the plants store small bits of silver that they uptake in their leaves, which work their way up the food chain, becoming more concentrated over time (Nothing else has a use, biologically, for silver... yet) to this creature?

Eh, that doesn't really work unless the method of communication develops over time, which would be possible.

[Moesly_Armlis]

Single chip transmitter Power equal VI. The input voltage is 1.8 V to 3.6 V and min current is 12 mA to 22 mA. Transmitter power min equals 3V x 12mA = 36mW, power max 66mW. That is low power and therefore low range (inverse square law) so an amplifier/repeater might be required.

One joule per second equals one watt.

from wiki :

- The small calorie or gram calorie (symbol: cal) is the approximate amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere

-One small calorie is approximately 4.2 joules

Silver oxide is white, so are these going to be white blooded creatures (sans racism)?

[impyre]

Constant power wouldn't be required any more than a constant stream of air is required for oral communication. You simply take breaths when it's convenient. Also, I imagine something like this would probably use very low frequencies (compared to what we use for RF communication) and simple amplitude modulation. Higher frequency means higher power. Lower frequencies can travel further on the same power. Although to be honest, our voices use a combination of amplitude and frequency modulation, mostly frequency though. (FM is easier to accomplish with sound)

Edited April 12, 2015 by impyre

[Starwhip]

Single chip transmitter Power equal VI. The input voltage is 1.8 V to 3.6 V and min current is 12 mA to 22 mA. Transmitter power min equals 3V x 12mA = 36mW, power max 66mW. That is low power and therefore low range (inverse square law) so an amplifier/repeater might be required.

One joule per second equals one watt.

from wiki :

- The small calorie or gram calorie (symbol: cal) is the approximate amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere

-One small calorie is approximately 4.2 joules

Silver oxide is white, so are these going to be white blooded creatures (sans racism)?

Is that megawatt or milliwatt? There's a big difference.

I'm assuming milliwatt, and indeed, that isn't much power. Amplifier is probably going to be a must.

The white blood would certainly be interesting.