T1 Runway is a joke?

[waterlubber]

I agree with grass runways, it makes more sense. Or at least a slightly raised, flat mound of grass

[Alshain]

That would certainly be better than the current T1 bumpy monstrosity.

I think a dirt runway is a good T2, then the asphalt runway as T3, and concrete T4. I even suggested instead of bumpy, make it slick. Dirt (especially granular like sand) and grass will slip more, so you might have less grip on the wheels than concrete, this would make it harder to accelerate and stop larger planes without affecting smaller ones that SHOULD be used on those runways anyway. However, I posted that in suggestion forum, so I doubt Squad saw it, lol.

[Guest]

Upcoming Tier 0 runway from SQUAD:

http://planelopnik.kinja.com/heres-what-it-takes-to-land-on-a-mile-high-invisible-ru-1655900340

[Renegrade]

I think a dirt runway is a good T2, then the asphalt runway as T3, and concrete T4. I even suggested instead of bumpy, make it slick. Dirt (especially granular like sand) and grass will slip more, so you might have less grip on the wheels than concrete, this would make it harder to accelerate and stop larger planes without affecting smaller ones that SHOULD be used on those runways anyway.

I could get behind something like that, although I'm pretty sure the current wheel mechanics don't take surface into account at all side from solid vs liquid considerations. Still, it would be a nice system, and inline with the "you must upgrade to use larger craft" theme that exists in 0.90. Er, 0.26.

However, I posted that in suggestion forum, so I doubt Squad saw it, lol.

Unfortunately that's probably true :/

Upcoming Tier 0 runway from SQUAD:

http://planelopnik.kinja.com/heres-what-it-takes-to-land-on-a-mile-high-invisible-ru-1655900340

Haha

Actually, that's the pre-Squadcast version. The new version has landmines, dragon's teeth, and Czech hedgehogs on it. The next version will have an AA battery right dab smack in the middle of it, which will attempt to fire on landing planes. (The AA doesn't have to worry about planes taking off, as there's a landmine on the spawn point)

[Alshain]

I could get behind something like that, although I'm pretty sure the current wheel mechanics don't take surface into account at all side from solid vs liquid considerations. Still, it would be a nice system, and inline with the "you must upgrade to use larger craft" theme that exists in 0.90. Er, 0.26.

The key word there is "current"

Unfortunately that's probably true :/

After Max called me out in Squadcast, I don't think I can say stuff like that anymore.

[Renegrade]

The key word there is "current"

Are you suggesting that the current ground movement mechanics leave something to be desired and desperately need an upgrade that would not only be appreciated by pilots but also by rover drivers? Hehe

After Max called me out in Squadcast, I don't think I can say stuff like that anymore.

Uhoh, wat happen? O.o

[Alshain]

Are you suggesting that the current ground movement mechanics leave something to be desired and desperately need an upgrade that would not only be appreciated by pilots but also by rover drivers? Hehe

Something like that, yes. Traction, wheels should have varying degrees of it. We don't put NASCAR tires on our private vehicles for a good reason.

Uhoh, wat happen? O.o

Oh, nothing major. But when I asked about the Round-8 he recognized my name and described my avatar, so no more wise-cracks about them not reading the forums

[klgraham1013]

Oh, nothing major. But when I asked about the Round-8 he recognized my name and described my avatar, so no more wise-cracks about them not reading the forums

I'm sure they do occasionally look at the forums and prominent members will eventually make an impression. Doesn't mean it can't get a little vexing to see all the great ideas in the Suggestion forums go unnoticed.

[Autochton]

So 1.1 dropped, new wheel physics, the whole shebang. Aaaand the starting runway is still an unusable rally track. I saw the excuses made above, and... Seriously? No mate. There's exactly one thing a runway is designed for, and that's being flat enough that things with small wheels can go fast on them. Hell, the Wright Bros. has a flatter piece of ground to work with than this. WWI air forces took off from flatter ground.

Are we to believe that Kerbals are somehow not competent enough to level a piece of land?

 

(SRSLY, I love KSP, but sometimes Squad's choices infuriate me.)

[Renegrade]

5 hours ago, Autochton said:

So 1.1 dropped, new wheel physics, the whole shebang. Aaaand the starting runway is still an unusable rally track.

Actually, I would say it's worse now.  In the past, the massive indestructibility of plane gear would let lighter designs handle the rally track (that's a good description for it, although I think most rally tracks are still smoother in the most part than the damn runway heh) with some careful piloting.  Now I'm afraid to use it at all for fear of exploding eggshell-strength gear and I taxi onto the shoulder to launch from there...

[steuben]

T1 Runway as a joke?

What's long, brown, bumpy, and lays in the grass?

No, not that... or that... or that... What? How does that even fit? No, don't explain it... It's the T1 runway.

 

But yes it is a bit tricky to land on and take off from. The new gear mechanics do not help things much at all. I'm still splashing most of my planes across the KSC on landing, both on and off the runway.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

What I actually would not mind would be some crazy uneven bumpy terrain to the left of the runway as to make the T1 runway seem flat. Then we can use the terrain to test our rovers.

[zarakon]

On 4/10/2015 at 11:47 AM, Renkov said:

I agree that the runway shouldn't be worse that the grass lands around it. I can see the different tiers being different lengths and widths. Lights up at night. Or has other attributes. Especially since the roadways around the Space Center are flat, they seem to have that technology available.

100% agree

The level 1 runway could be just like the island runway, short and dirt-looking, but still flat.

[Jarin]

Landing on the grass needs to be made significantly worse, add trees, rocks, etc. Maybe de-bumpify the T1 runway a bit, but not too much. Then make the landing gear something better than eggshell-strength, and it should be good.

[Jart]

The answer is UAV in the early career game, for kerbaled aircraft have to put wings on that heavy cockpit and get off the ground quickly..

[Jarin]

Planes designed for STOL can take off and land normally. Used this model for two survey contracts before heading back to the runway to land. Uses nothing but the first aircraft tech node:

 

Just had to kick the rear wheels far enough forward that the elevators at the back could push the tail down early on. Lifts off easily at around 35m/s (fuselage structural tanks were half empty; have not tested at full load)

 

Of course, prior to relocating the rear landing gear, it would shatter the front gear at 50m/s or so on some random bump.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Jarin

[ghpstage]

Its not actually too difficult to get aircraft off the T1 runway provided you build for a low take off velocity, having the craft lean backwards, angling the wings for a larger AoA, more wings etc.

The bigger problem is having landing gear made of glass. I've managed to get aircraft of 10 tons in the air off the T1 runway using only the first aircraft parts you get, but landing is another kettle of fish entirely. Even on perfectly flat ground the heaviest thing i've successfully landed without damage is 7-7.5 tons.

 

This doesn't excuse the T1 runway however, to have as huge area of grassland lying nearby that is far flatter than the runway is completely absurd.

Edited April 21, 2016 by ghpstage

[TMS]

I genuinely look forwards to a future version in which landing a spaceplane on non-runwayed ground will result in your undercarriage collapsing.

At that point, I'd regard the runway upgrades (length and width) as being meaningful.

Maybe even an option of building runways on other planets.

A bit of challenge and delayed gratification would really help the game.

[ArgenTum]

I would like a concrete runway already as T1, but it should be much thinner (less broad) and much shorter. Then the wheels wouldn't break, but it would still be harder to start from and land on. And T2 would be in the middle of length and broadness and T3 like it is now. This would IMHO be much more "realistic" AND "fun".

[DrMarlboro]

I have no problems with the T1 runway. Embrace the high ground clearance taildragger within you! Here is one of mine just after landing.

 

There's a reason tailwheel aircraft exist, and it is specifically because they perform better on rough landing strips (or, if you are a bush pilot, no strip at all but any suitable piece of relatively flat land). nose wheel aircraft are prone to snap the front wheel in similar landing conditions.

 

I really don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but i think the T1 runway works just fine, and should stay the way it is. It only takes a little understanding of how landing gear works.

Edit: you also want as much distance as your craft allows between the main gear and the tailwheel to account for elevation changes.

Edited April 22, 2016 by DrMarlboro

[jpinard]

On 4/10/2015 at 7:56 AM, katateochi said:

It's all the soil they removed when constructing the other buildings, they didn't know what to do with it so they just dumped it in a long line and then thought "hey we could make a runway" but they're waiting for funds to hire a steamroller.

I also quite like the dirt track runway! Took off from it without wheels

Please post more pictures of this (or better yet the plane file).  I want to play with that too!

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I think the T1-Runway is Squad trolling their community

[Renegrade]

On 2016-04-22 at 7:33 PM, DrMarlboro said:

That doesn't work so well with the LY-01s as forward gear, I've found.  I notice you have the LY-10s up there.  I built a similar plane earlier (on the T2 runway though), entirely by coincidence (it was very front-loaded, so the wings were too far ahead for a tricycle arrangement), it worked very well. 

However, I tried to build a test plane for the T1 runway in a testing save, and it was able to take off and land just fine from the dirt-mountain-ridge which pretends to be a runway with tricycle gear, but with the LY-01s up front, it would start to yaw left or right after reaching about 20m/s.  A longer, heavier version (3.6t/8.1m -> 4.2t/8.9m) was capable of taking off, but it too would spin out upon landing, losing about half of it's parts.  With tricycle gear, the longer version handled even better. 

Anyhow, the whole point is not that it's completely unusable, it's that the runway is inferior to both it's own grassy shoulder AND the terrain around it.  Also, consider comparing it to the T1 launchpad, which is every bit as usable (within it's mass/size limits) as the T3 variant.  Can you say that about the T1 runway?

(I'd say it's almost unusable, both the taildragger and tricycle gear designs easily wrecked gear if the ground speed was anything over 35)

BTW, have you tried landing that thing with the reaction wheels in the cockpit disabled?  I have a feeling it would fall over without #lolreactionwheels on any sort of rough terrain.  The main gear are rather close together.