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From Duna to Mars - Realism Challenge

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vosechu

vosechu

Posted
Posted (edited)

Introduction

Welcome to the Mars Realism Working Group, we're glad you could join us today! In this thread we're compiling resources, building ships, and eventually all going to mars together using those same assets. It's a big job, so we're really happy to have you!

Current scores

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No completed entries yet! You could be the first!

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[td]Realism Overhaul: N/A[/td]

[td]Stock Hardmode: N/A[/td]

[td]Stock Pure: N/A[/td]

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Achievements

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[td]Challenge[/td]

[td]Realism Overhaul[/td]

[td]Stock Hardmode[/td]

[td]Stock Pure[/td]

[td]Links[/td]

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We need to find a home, but we also need to understand how much RO's version of Mars is like the real Mars. So we need to evaluate sites using things like ScanSat and compare them with important features on the real mars. Ideally, we'll be able to use these sites to go out and actually put flags down on Duna in the right places!

Your solutions will be used by almost everyone who attempts this challenge!

Requirements:

  • Broad flat area, 10-20km diameter.
  • Kerbal rover access to as many biomes and monuments as possible (within 100-200km).
  • Robot access to areas of biological concern, recent craters, mid-latitude gullies, "pasted-on" terrain, thermal anomalies, very young volcanic rocks.
  • Plentiful in-situ resources.

Standards:

  • Bronze: 1-2 lat/lng locations with some interesting features.
  • Silver: 3-4 possible locations with close proximity to anomalies, features, and biomes.
  • Gold: Something extra special; perhaps 4 locations with thought into possible missions and excursions from that location.

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One of the hardest parts of the real Mars missions is that signal delay is a real thing. NASA normally tells the astronauts exactly what to do, every minute of every day. But with a signal delay of 45m it becomes significantly harder to do that.

Regardless, if we don't have the assets in place RemoteTech will be a very difficult mod to include, but it's such an important part of the mission that we should at least attempt. The goal of this is to create a savegame with the assets in place that will facilitate people to communicate with Mars using RemoteTech.

Please try to keep to just the mods listed in the first post, but if it's critical please mention which mods you used people will know what to install.

Like the first challenge, this is the bedrock of people's mission attempts; your work here will help people for months or maybe years.

  • Link to your savegame file (github/gist?)
  • List of extra mods needed
  • Images of satellites and their orbits (imgur)
  • Geostationary satellites in place at Earth
  • Polar, heliosynchronous, or highly eccentric satellites if needed
  • Replica mars assets in roughly correct orbit
    • Mars Global Surveyor
    • Mars Odyssey
    • Mars Reconnaisance Orbiter (MRO)

    [*]Recommendations of addition assets to deliver to Mars (aerostationary or polar?)

    [*]Recommendations of on-ground communications devices for use on Mars

    [*]Recommendations of in-transit communications devices for use by MTV

Standards:

  • Bronze: A communications network around Kerbin capable of maintaining contact with a point on the duna surface 40% of the Duna day.
  • Silver: In addition, a small communications network around Duna/Mars capable of maintaining contact with a point on the duna surface 90% of the Duna day.
  • Gold: Something extra special; perhaps a replica communications network representing the actual satellites around earth and mars that would be used for a real Mars mission.

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[td]Bronze[/td]

[td]Dirty Bronze[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

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Solutions:

Realism Overhaul

Stock-hardmode

Stock

  • link to post - username

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This is a relatively small challenge, but it's extremely important. We need you to make a lifter that is capable of lofting 110t or thereabouts to a nice, low eccentricity 407km orbit.

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s49/sh/5a60a807-c783-44f5-9596-1872e4293883/8ddabea1646bb915e554e128dfa9a70c

Requirements:

  • Make the craft file available (github/gist?)
  • Lots of pretty photos!
  • List MechJeb ascent profile if possible
  • Ensure there's enough communications for RT2 to use
  • Autonomous ascent and/or rendezvous is acceptable and expected
  • 40t, 10mx30m fairing (supposed to be aerocapture capable, but maybe we need to skip this)
  • Capable of launching to 407km circular orbit

Standards:

  • Bronze: A craft capable of launching the payload with some rendezvous and deorbit capability.
  • Silver: A gorgeous craft that replicates the real Ares V as closely as possible.
  • Gold: Something extra special.

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[td]Silver[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Bronze[/td]

[td]

Solutions:

Realism Overhaul

Stock-hardmode

  • link to post - username

Stock

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Blown up diagram of the cargo MTV: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s49/sh/bcc21fa1-b081-41b7-8413-8ee24ff27eb1/c8e614c35c5fee361dbc6f23d791adc3

The cargo MTV is a pre-flight transfer vehicle that ferries all the payloads that need to be on Mars and operational before we bother sending out humans or kerbals.

Unlike the crewed MTV, we don't need to worry about radiation from the engines, nor do we need to worry about taking longer to get to Mars (a low energy transfer). What we are able to do is take advantage of the lower risk nature of our goods and do some aerobraking around mars. This MTV also will not be coming back to earth, so feel free to burn it up when you're done with it.

You don't need to build the things that go inside the aeroshell for this challenge, just make a subassemblies that other people can use.

Requirements:

  • Make the craft files available (github/gist?)
  • Pretty pictures of the vehicle all together and in three parts
  • Put the attachment node on the bottom of the subassembly (the engine, the bottom of the inline fuel tank, and the aeroshell)
  • 3x 111.2kN nuclear engines (700-900isp)
  • First tank - 9m wide, 59.4t of LH2, 3.6t of RCS (~96.6t total mass, 33.7t dry mass)
  • In-line tank - 9m wide, 34.1t of LH2, 1.7t of RCS, attaches to front of other tank (~46.6t total mass, 10.8t dry mass)
  • 2x circular orion style solar panels
  • ~143.2 total mass

Standards:

  • Bronze: The three craft files (or one linked craft file) covering the components
  • Silver: Craft files that closely resemble the actual craft
  • Gold: Something extra special

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Large diagram of the crewed CTV concept - https://www.evernote.com/shard/s49/sh/bcc21fa1-b081-41b7-8413-8ee24ff27eb1/c8e614c35c5fee361dbc6f23d791adc3

Overall mission plan showing the drop of the trussed tank - https://www.evernote.com/shard/s49/sh/9ce7559b-4f68-4d9e-bee0-4edfa18f936e/39159c623665e0ce6b1b51ece9c7d27e

The crewed MTV is responsible for ferrying the 6 astronauts to Mars as quickly as possible with the minimum of radiation. Like the cargo MTV, the propulsion module comes in multiple parts (one extra one this time) with living quarters on the very front.

Because of the extra radiation shielding, the first section of the propulsion has significantly more weight. Also, this MTV has to come home after the trip to mars, detach its CEV, and deorbit the Orion module safely. It's a lot for one ship!

Requirements:

  • Make the craft files available (github/gist?)
  • Pretty pictures of the vehicle all together and in four parts
  • Put the attachment node on the bottom of the subassembly (the engine, the bottom of the inline fuel tank, the bottom of the two trusses, and the CEV module)
  • 3x 111.2kN nuclear engines (700-900isp)
  • First tank w/ radiation shield - 9m wide, 59.7t of LH2, 4.9t of RCS (~106.2t total mass, 41.7t dry mass)
  • In-line tank - 9m wide, 69.9t of LH2, 0t of RCS, attaches to front of other tank (~91.4t total mass, 21.5t dry mass)
  • Long saddle truss - 9m wide, 73.1t of LH2, 0t of RCS, attaches to front of in-line tank, LH2 can be dropped after TMI burn (~96t total mass, 8.9t saddle truss, 14t dry tank mass)
  • Short saddle truss - 9m wide, 0t of LH2, 3.2t of RCS, attaches to front of long saddle truss (~62.8t total mass, 4.7t short truss, 9.8t contingency food, 1.8t docking truss, 32.8t habitat, 10.6 CEV/SM + Crew)
  • 2x circular orion style solar panels
  • 4x long solar panels (50kWe total, 12.5kWe each, 125m^2 each)

Standards:

  • Bronze: The four craft files (or one linked craft file) covering the components
  • Silver: Craft files that closely resemble the actual craft
  • Gold: Something extra special

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This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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[td]Unfinished[/td]

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This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

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This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

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This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

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This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

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This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

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This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

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This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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[td]Unfinished[/td]

[td]Unfinished[/td]

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(wow, this is like 16 other challenges or possibilities...)

This mission description is not yet finished. Put a description in the thread and I'll put it in here so you can get credit!

Requirements:


Standards:

  • Bronze:
  • Silver:
  • Gold: Something extra special

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Primary Score

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Why do we choose to do this Mars thing? For Science! Boots on the ground over time - poking around. Even better wheels on the ground!

The scoring system reflects this goal, while leaving out all the fiddly details:

  • Just how fast, reliable, & ATV is your rover? hard to measure - we just used NASA lunar and planed rovers as a guide.
  • If I land at 02:00 hr do I count that as a day? don't count days, orbital mechanics means there are only 2 basic choices - short stay and long stay.
  • Which of all the different science we could do... We will just gloss over that ...

So what is left in?

  • Long Term Habitation is more than 15 days and requires double the 'rated' crew capacity.
  • Short Stay or Long Stay - nominally 30 days or 500 days.
  • Bases - pressure living and life support.
    • Fixed
    • Mobile - can bring fresh terrain into range.

    [*]Kerbals doing Suit EVA.

    [*]Rovers are multipliers of Kerbal's science gathering speed:

    • Open rover with no life support.
    • Pressure rover with 15 day life support on board.

    [*]Layers of the planet independently make science available.

    • Surface accessible by just walking / roving around.
    • Sub-surface more information is available if you can drill in. For this you need equipment - just mock something, using KAS if you'd like to get fancy. Requires a rover ( mass 1 ton ) and 2 Kerbals ( oops my bit is stuck ).

    [*]Robo / Telepresence You will need one of the large Remote Probe cores to serve as a control hub. Each robotic unit will score as 0.5 * a Kerbal, but can gather data up to the maximum.

    [*]Sample Return Cherry picking samples and returning the to Kerbin for in depth study doubles the score of units that have access to a Science Lab and the capacity to return 500 kg of samples.

To score your entry:

  • You will score the Surface and Sub-surface layer independently and then sum the scores. Kerbals associated with a Drill score on both the surface layer and the sub-surface layer.
  • Pick the Short or Long stay section.
  • Score each Kerbal / Rover from the appropriate row; Suit EVA, Open Rover, Pressure Rover and apply any modifiers:
    • divide by 2 for robotic units (oops dust obscured my camera)

    [*]Then starting at Suit EVA limit your score for that row score to the maximum available for the kind of Base the Kerbal has.

    [*]Continue down the table adding in the next score to the running total and limiting to the maximum available in that row.

    [*]Apply any Base Multipliers:

    • multiply by 2 for having a Science Lab (mass?) and the ability to sample return 0.5 ton of samples.

    [*]Sum the score for all your base.

    [*]Sum the surface and sub-surface scores.

    [*]Profit!

As we get entries that are 'incompatible' we will create separate 'divisions'. If anyone manages a 'Really Long Stay' we will extend the scoring system.

Scoring Table

Short Stay

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[tr]

[td]Kerbal Kind[/td]

[td]Score[/td]

[td]Fixed Base Max[/td]

[td]Mobile Base Max[/td]

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[td]Suit EVA[/td]

[td]1[/td]

[td]20[/td]

[td]80[/td]

[/tr]

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[td]Open Rover[/td]

[td]2[/td]

[td]40[/td]

[td]160[/td]

[/tr]

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[td]Pressure Rover[/td]

[td]4[/td]

[td]500[/td]

[td]2000[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Long Stay

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[td]Kerbal Kind[/td]

[td]Score[/td]

[td]Fixed Base Max[/td]

[td]Mobile Base Max[/td]

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[td]Suit EVA[/td]

[td]15[/td]

[td]20[/td]

[td]600[/td]

[/tr]

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[td]Open Rover[/td]

[td]30[/td]

[td]40[/td]

[td]1200[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Pressure Rover[/td]

[td]60[/td]

[td]500[/td]

[td]15000[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Min/maxing

If you think you see a hole in the scoring system, let us know.

Scoring Examples

Example 1:

A Fixed Base with 6 crew for a Short Stay with 2 open rovers, each with 2 seats, one with 1 drill.

Surface:

= 2 * 1 max 20 & 4 * 2 max 40

= 2 max 20 & 8 max 40

= 2 + 8 max 40

= 10

Sub-surface:

= 4 * 2 max 40

= 8 max 40

= 8

Total Score: 18

Example 2:

Same as Example 1 but Long Stay.

Surface:

= 2 * 15 max 20 & 4 * 30 max 40

= 30 max 20 & 120 max 40

= 20 + 120 max 40

= 40

Sub-surface:

= 4 * 30 max 40

= 120 max 40

= 40

Total Score: 80

Example 3:

Fixed Base Long Stay, 2 Open Rover seats with a Drill, 4 Pressure Rover seats ( 2 rovers) with 2 Drills.

Surface:

= 2 * 30 max 40 & 4 * 60 max 500

= 60 max 40 &240 max 500

= 40 + 240 max 500

= 280

Sub-surface:

= 2 * 30 max 40 & 4 * 60 max 500

= 60 max 40 & 240 max 500

= 40 + 240 max 500

= 280

Total Score: 560

Rules

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  • There are no rules about which engines or fuels you may use, RealFuel and EngineIgniter will tactfully inform you when your cryogenic fuels have evaporated.
  • There are no rules about how many types of ships you build, but due to the immense amount of testing and design needed to make lifters, you may wish to make only one type of lifter that can be used to lift all of your payloads to LEO (160-2000km).
  • There are no rules about how much fuel you have left when you get to LEO, or even where you orbit. Having left-over fuel may be worth the extra cost... then again, it may not be.
  • There are no rules about aerodynamic shells or heat shields, DRE and FAR will punish you for your transgressions.
  • There are no rules about life support, TACLS will inform you when your crews have expired.

Mods

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Required mods

Install CKAN and grab these things. Accept all the recommended mods and accept any suggested mods that you desire (None are required).

Option 1: Realism Overhaul version

Option 2: Stock-hardmode

Option 3: Stock

Recommended mods

Banned mods

  • NearFuture*
  • Karbonite+
  • Extraplanetary Launchpads

Useful resources

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Special Thanks

  • DBowman - for encouraging me to start this thread and his numerous encouraging collaborative posts
  • Sturmstiger - for the original inspiration and the challenge that kept giving
  • NathanKell, magico13, Norcalplanner, DuoDex - for helping out in the early days of this challenge

Problems:

  1. KSP units for things: it's all a bit mysterious. 1 unit of oxidizer looks like it weighs 4 liters of LOX. There are arguments over what liquid fuel is.
  2. Figuring out reaction rates and energy required: I just plugged in very high numbers to make it easy to see it working, but I haven't figured out any real numbers for input/output. DRA5 says 300 days @ 23 kW, I didn't see a number for how much Oxidizer they thought to produce.
  3. Power: if the US guys are right and 1 EC = 33 watts then running CO2 Decomp required about 700 EC 956 RTGs - 76 tons. Oh I see RO has 1 EC = 1kW, I've not seen what RTGs make in RO though.
  4. Energy: I'm no chemist so I've no idea how much energy in and out the various reactions take - so we'd have to source info from somewhere. Seems like lots of mods make Sabatier require input energy (for 'game balance'?) when it's exothermic and generates heat.
  5. We need to get a signature badge or patch for this work. Where do we find a graphic designer?

Edited by vosechu
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magico13

magico13

Posted
Posted

If you do decide to require KCT, there is a LOT of customization you can do if you so desire (to make things realistic or to restrict the wide range of options available to try to even the playing field for everyone). I'll link to the page on the github that talks about modifying the KCT_Formula.cfg file, here. If you need any help with that or have any questions, just let me know (PM or on the KCT page is better as I'm more likely to see it). RP-0 has a custom config for KCT that you may want to check out, but it will likely change things in a way that isn't quite conducive to a "challenge" style gameplay (not to be confused with challenging, because it will definitely do that).

There are ways now to totally eliminate the use of upgrade points from KCT, alternatively you can rework the formula to make upgrades have a bigger/lesser effect quite easily. And build times can now be mass based or cost based or a combination (default is fueled cost based).

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vosechu

vosechu

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I'm realizing that in a perfect world, I think the rules would be something like "Get 6 kerbals to Mars. These mods will punish you if you do it wrong."

So at that point it just comes down to making sure people use the same settings for mods and we're golden.

Some mods I'm looking into:

  • Fitness / health
  • Multi-location payload building
  • Survivability / escape
  • Stage recovery / refitting for KCT
  • Food growing?

- - - Updated - - -

If you do decide to require KCT, there is a LOT of customization you can do if you so desire (to make things realistic or to restrict the wide range of options available to try to even the playing field for everyone). I'll link to the page on the github that talks about modifying the KCT_Formula.cfg file, here. If you need any help with that or have any questions, just let me know (PM or on the KCT page is better as I'm more likely to see it). RP-0 has a custom config for KCT that you may want to check out, but it will likely change things in a way that isn't quite conducive to a "challenge" style gameplay (not to be confused with challenging, because it will definitely do that).

There are ways now to totally eliminate the use of upgrade points from KCT, alternatively you can rework the formula to make upgrades have a bigger/lesser effect quite easily. And build times can now be mass based or cost based or a combination (default is fueled cost based).

Outstanding! Thank you, I'll certainly ask you about KCT. I'll admit that I've not used it up until now, but I definitely see the value and would really appreciate not having to write rules and instead letting the mods inform people.

I'll also look at the RP0 config for KCT.

That brings up an interesting point of those mods that aren't costed. I don't know if that's a general RO thing or an RP0 thing. Should mods that don't have a cost be a concern? Should there even be a funds limit?

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DBowman

DBowman

Posted
Posted (edited)

I thought to take step back and think about challenge setting in general.

Think of constructing a challenge like building your own game. From looking at WoW and others it seems like you want to try to arrange:

  • Player population: the game live or dies by building/maintaining population. Most of the following are mechanisms to build and maintain player population.
  • Population breeds population: a vibrant active challenge will be more likely to be noticed by and to convert potential to actual contenders. Views breed views, views breed contenders.
  • Easy entry point: Someone who just installed stock KSP and sees the challenge should be able to say 'yes I'm going to go for it'. Maximise the number of KSP players who are potential challenge contenders. Maximise the interest for lurkers/viewers. You focus is on RO, but in the big picture every RO contender would have started out with stock-ish challenges (even if self imposed).
  • Progression: at any time a player needs to be able to look back in progression to feel they have made progress, and forward to aspire. I don't mean just I'm in 9th place and want to climb, but also taking on a bigger / harder challenge - like the WoW Heroics.
  • Re-playability: progression keeps contenders contending; I did stock, now I'll take on... keeps the population/posts/views up.
  • Different strokes: e.g. WoW - PvE, PvP, Collecting, Professions... There are all sorts of people and you need some thing for every one to get a community critical mass; each of these sub communities has it's own entry point and progression. Nothing to stop people working an all the areas, or switching from one to the other. More chances for people to be a winner in their particular pond. Lots of open ecological niches crying out for completions.
  • Keep it as simple as possible: like the 'mods will punish you' idea. A potential contender should be able to grok pretty quickly the main thrust of some progression / entry point - but may take (satisfying) a while to come to grips with all the details once they start taking it on.
  • Patches: everyone likes patches ;), they are good for sigs and will point back to the challenge.

I think you'd want to make a matrix of challenges, or a series of challenge pipelines.

Edited by DBowman
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Norcalplanner

Norcalplanner

Posted
Posted (edited)

What DBowman said. The more required mods there are, the further it winnows the field of contenders. I'd recommend at least three divisions - stockish KSP, RO without any additional realism mods, and then RO with the full masochist suite of mods. Think Jool-5 with all its subvariants. You could even further break it down by some other metric - size of colony, cost of space program, length of time to establish the colony, etc. And if someone goes through the pain of completing a difficult challenge like this, they're definitely going to want a badge/patch to show it off.

Speaking solely for myself, I can handle RO with a few other mods, but do not use Remote Tech or TACLS, so I wouldn't do the challenge in its current format.

Edited by Norcalplanner
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monstah

monstah

Posted
Posted

I like where this is going. Some questions:

- What's KCT?

- Regolith acceptable as Kethane substitute?

I really like the thought that mods take care of the restrictions, which is one of the reasons I won't play without DRE or RT2. Given the planets realistic size, DRE's default settings are deadly enough (don't know about Mars' thinner atmosphere, but I played around with it on Earth once and KABOOM).

This could be a scoreless challenge, like Eve Rocks - make it, and a winner is you. Given food, reentry heat, communications, and greater than stock DV requirements, the sheer fact that you landed people there and had them stay long enough is a prize in itself.

I've never played seriously with RO before. Willing to take a shot here!

- - - Updated - - -

Given previous points about player entry level and such, and given the challenge's objective, my "good enough" mods are:

-DRE

-TAC

-RT2*

-FAR*

Any mission with these is already a very different challenge from stock; even using Duna instead of real Mars!

* I always play with RemoteTech myself, tho for this particular challenge it might not be needed (to alleviate entry requirements). It's about the Kerbals' survivability! FAR is also a must have for my playing tastes, but in this case it actually makes the challenge easier, so it might be optional too. So, maybe, different "challenge levels" including RT/FAR? That makes it only 3 (or 2) required mods, DRE, TAC (and RO).

- - - Updated - - -

Another thought: a leaderboard based on least funds spent? Just brainstorming here. Something like (Kerbal-days spent on Mars)/(funds spent to keep them there), for a possibly variable ammount of Kerbals per mission.

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magico13

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KCT is a mod that adds construction times for rockets (plus a bunch of other things, check my signature for the link). I'd like to point out that FAR is a requirement of RO and it'd be nuts not to use it :P I don't see why RT should be required if you do everything kerballed, but at the same time if you do everything kerballed anyway it won't really matter so it doesn't really hurt to have it.

If you distribute a save file you can have prebuilt craft in KCT (if that's what you meant). If you meant building launchers and payload separately, then yes KCT supports that through the "scrap + edit" method. Scrap the cheaper part, edit the more expensive one, and add the cheaper one to the more expensive one. You might pay a bit of cost in time, but it's faster if you have multiple build rates.

As for part failure, I recommend Test Flight since it's designed with RO in mind and I'm going to be adding support for it in KCT at some point. Plus, parts get more reliable as you test them, which is cool.

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vosechu

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I thought to take step back and think about challenge setting in general.

Think of constructing a challenge like building your own game. From looking at WoW and others it seems like you want to try to arrange:

...

I think you'd want to make a matrix of challenges, or a series of challenge pipelines.

I think this is a great idea.

What DBowman said. The more required mods there are, the further it winnows the field of contenders. I'd recommend at least three divisions - stockish KSP, RO without any additional realism mods, and then RO with the full masochist suite of mods. Think Jool-5 with all its subvariants.

Perfect. And I'm going to look at what RP0 offers out of the box just to see. It looks like doing a basic RP0 install, but then using sandbox mode, would get all the mods installed in one fell swoop as well as doing a bunch of costing work. This would allow the funds based primary score as well.

- Regolith acceptable as Kethane substitute?

Absolutely, I always forget about Regolith but that's what I intended all along.

I really like the thought that mods take care of the restrictions, which is one of the reasons I won't play without DRE or RT2. Given the planets realistic size, DRE's default settings are deadly enough (don't know about Mars' thinner atmosphere, but I played around with it on Earth once and KABOOM).

Great to know that it's deadly enough. Thank you for confirming that!

This could be a scoreless challenge, like Eve Rocks - make it, and a winner is you. Given food, reentry heat, communications, and greater than stock DV requirements, the sheer fact that you landed people there and had them stay long enough is a prize in itself.

Another thought: a leaderboard based on least funds spent? Just brainstorming here. Something like (Kerbal-days spent on Mars)/(funds spent to keep them there), for a possibly variable ammount of Kerbals per mission.

That's what I was thinking. I personally don't like leaderboards, but I also know that some people are really, really motivated by it. It's also possible that we could assign a group score, thanks to these people we've managed to reduce the cost per kerbal to X which I think gets all the parties excited? What do you think?

Given previous points about player entry level and such, and given the challenge's objective, my "good enough" mods are:

-DRE

-TAC

-RT2*

-FAR*

Any mission with these is already a very different challenge from stock; even using Duna instead of real Mars!

Super good point. This sticks to the original aim of letting mods punish you instead of rules so I think it's a great idea.

Maybe we have RP0 edition with one group score, and a Stock-hardmode with one score? Do we need a straight up stock mode edition? I know some people really like that, but it's in conflict with the "mod enforced, not rule enforced" value of this challenge.

KCT is a mod that adds construction times for rockets (plus a bunch of other things, check my signature for the link). I'd like to point out that FAR is a requirement of RO and it'd be nuts not to use it :P I don't see why RT should be required if you do everything kerballed, but at the same time if you do everything kerballed anyway it won't really matter so it doesn't really hurt to have it.

It's an interesting point. In the DRA5 they talk about how some science things can be done with rovers, but they're worried that the bacterial colonies that live on humans would introduce life onto mars and possibly kill off any martian life they find (see: colonists bringing smallpox to the americas). So there's some sections that have to be done with an unmanned rover, and some that can be done with a pressurized, manned rover.

In order to accommodate that in RT, we would have to have 6 crew and one of the big command modules. But if we strip the RT2 requirement then maybe that makes that issue go away.

I'm convinced. Since it's kerballed anyways lets skip RT.

If you distribute a save file you can have prebuilt craft in KCT (if that's what you meant). If you meant building launchers and payload separately, then yes KCT supports that through the "scrap + edit" method. Scrap the cheaper part, edit the more expensive one, and add the cheaper one to the more expensive one. You might pay a bit of cost in time, but it's faster if you have multiple build rates.

Will reply in a moment, just about to go to a meeting.

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vosechu

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If you distribute a save file you can have prebuilt craft in KCT (if that's what you meant). If you meant building launchers and payload separately, then yes KCT supports that through the "scrap + edit" method. Scrap the cheaper part, edit the more expensive one, and add the cheaper one to the more expensive one. You might pay a bit of cost in time, but it's faster if you have multiple build rates.

I think I asked the question wrong. What I'm trying to figure out is how to replicate the building mechanic from the original thread. Something like, it takes 2x days to build a lifter (plus payload), where x is the max payload mass (this was called NIMLKO in the original thread, or IMLEO in NASA speak).

I'm envisioning something where I can have 13 of the same lander just sitting in my inventory, while my payloads are being built in a separate line. Or maybe payloads are free or something. Or maybe this is all part of the challenge, I'm not sure! :)

On an unrelated note, my install got borked so I just did a reinstall of ckan and my mods. Here's what I had to do so far:

Things I selected in ckan:

Mandatory mods

  • Ambient Light Adjustment [i'm so tired of black screenshots!]
  • EngineIgniter (repack)
  • Realistic Progression Zero
  • (uncheck in install screen) RemoteTech
  • (uncheck in install screen) RemoteTech RSS Configuration

Surprisingly small actually!

So my question is whether this is a sufficiently small install, or should I put together a meta-pack and ship it to netkan? If we go the netkan route we can inform ckan that the "Highly recommended" and the "Optional" mods are dependencies (or maybe not dependencies, but suggestions).

It's also making me wonder why EngineIgnitor is not included in RP-0; is it just on the wrong side of the fun/challenging graph?

I also think it might be acceptable to just add in a note that RT2 isn't required, but that people are welcome to use it. I already have a big comms network setup, so it doesn't matter to me, but I know others don't have this set up and that's okay.

Highly recommended

  • Enhanced NavBall
  • FASA Launch Clamps and Towers [Almost mandatory for Hydrolox engines]
  • Mechjeb and Engineer for all!
  • TweakableEverything
  • RCS Build Aid

Things I'm testing out

  • keepfit [For testing purposes, not sure if it'll make the cut]
  • Kerbal Weather Systems! [For testing purposes, not sure if it'll make the cut]
  • KerbalMass [For testing purposes, not sure if it'll make the cut]

Optional

  • Karbonite
  • Kerbal Inventory System
  • Regolith
  • ActiveTextureManagement - X86 - Basic
  • Real Solar System Textures DDS - 4096 x 2048

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magico13

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Something like, it takes 2x days to build a lifter (plus payload), where x is the max payload mass (this was called NIMLKO in the original thread, or IMLEO in NASA speak).

I'm envisioning something where I can have 13 of the same lander just sitting in my inventory, while my payloads are being built in a separate line. Or maybe payloads are free or something. Or maybe this is all part of the challenge, I'm not sure! :)

Hmm, not directly doable with KCT (it can't anticipate what a ship's max payload will be) BUT you can tweak the formula really easily to have it take a certain amount of time per ton of vessel (and remove the use of upgrade points, which I advise for simplicity). That way a ship that weighs more takes longer to build in a predictable manner. If you want to encourage reusability, you can still use the part inventory. You can fix there to be two build rates maybe, to allow payload and launcher to built at the same time or to have two rockets be built at once.

So, not exactly payload mass defined, just total mass, but those are usually related. It encourages trying to get the maximum payload fraction possible, which you may or may not like. If KCT needs a few simple tweaks for this challenge, let me know and I can probably put them in (but give me minimum a few days notice before you need it).

If you absolutely want to convert to payload mass, just assume a "standard" or average payload fraction and balance rates around that. (ie, a rocket has a 10% payload fraction and can lift 10 tons to orbit, so it's total mass is on average 100 tons. If you want 2 days per payload ton, then you want 20 days. So, roughly, BP = 2*86400*0.10*Mass and the Build Rate would be 1. I can pretty easily come up with a config for that if you want to test it out. Just tell me what payload fraction you want to go with and how many build rates, also what other KCT features you want on/off (I can pseudo disable some of them in just the formula config file). Is this a sandbox challenge or a career challenge?

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vosechu

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I can't think of a good way to score the achievements section. I want it to feel like a group effort, but I also want to put a number on it. What do you all think?

I've updated the description at top to include the mod recommendations from this thread. Seems like it should be pretty minimal which is awesome!

I'm going to check out KCT, keepfit, weather, and kerbalmass today.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm, not directly doable with KCT (it can't anticipate what a ship's max payload will be) BUT you can tweak the formula really easily to have it take a certain amount of time per ton of vessel (and remove the use of upgrade points, which I advise for simplicity). That way a ship that weighs more takes longer to build in a predictable manner. If you want to encourage reusability, you can still use the part inventory. You can fix there to be two build rates maybe, to allow payload and launcher to built at the same time or to have two rockets be built at once.

So, not exactly payload mass defined, just total mass, but those are usually related. It encourages trying to get the maximum payload fraction possible, which you may or may not like. If KCT needs a few simple tweaks for this challenge, let me know and I can probably put them in (but give me minimum a few days notice before you need it).

If you absolutely want to convert to payload mass, just assume a "standard" or average payload fraction and balance rates around that. (ie, a rocket has a 10% payload fraction and can lift 10 tons to orbit, so it's total mass is on average 100 tons. If you want 2 days per payload ton, then you want 20 days. So, roughly, BP = 2*86400*0.10*Mass and the Build Rate would be 1. I can pretty easily come up with a config for that if you want to test it out. Just tell me what payload fraction you want to go with and how many build rates, also what other KCT features you want on/off (I can pseudo disable some of them in just the formula config file).

That's amazing, let me play with KCT from RP0 and see if it looks like it would do what we need just by default.

Is this a sandbox challenge or a career challenge?

I was thinking sandbox, despite using RP-0. I like RP-0 because there's a bunch of work on cost balancing and also some configs for things like KCT. :)

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I'm liking the KCT idea, so far. Seems configurable enough, and the inventory seems to set it on the "difficult but fair" terrain. I'm gonna fiddle around with it when I get home.

Awesome! Thank you monstah. I'm trying to fiddle as well but I'm having trouble getting RP-0 installed right now. Something funny with MM that I'm working through.

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DBowman

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Achievements maybe run them as bronze, silver, gold level: e.g. Silver Crew Safety, Gold Mission Robustness? Add the corresponding symbols to a completion Mission Patch. A bit like the kerbaltech ribbon generator. Then you can also post the highest level achieved by any completion for a particular challenge; Stock has Gold Mission Robustness, RO has Bronze Mission Robustness.

ISRU using or not using ISRU makes such a big difference that it's not really the same challenge, see DPOMAC getting free (small time cost) fuel at Minmus & Duna vs hauling everything from Kerbal surface. I think ISRU or not should certainly be separate 'classes' of a challenge.

I want to use ISRU but I'm not clear on Regolith. It seems to be a substrate for building ISRU mods, and Karbonite is built on top of it. Karbonite has a Real Fuels tweak so it can produce fuel RO can use, but it comes from a magic imaginary resource - which doesn't seem very realism overhaul faithful. Is there a mod in the pipeline that is like RealISRU? I've used DunaDirect to do Sabatier to F&O on Duna, but saw a comment that it may hardcode things and not be able to be tweaked for RealFuel, Universal Storage also has Sabatier, but it cannot source atmospheric CO2.

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Wow, I had no idea what we were getting into!

I made a replica apollo mission today; really the first time I've tried to do something this ambitious in RP-0. It's intense, but the satisfaction is so incredibly immense! Almost as immense as the craft itself.

I'm slightly horrified to think that I'm going to essentially have to lift 12 of these beasts in order to make a single trip to Mars. At least, that's according to the DRA5. It's seriously mind-numbing...

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Achievements maybe run them as bronze, silver, gold level: e.g. Silver Crew Safety, Gold Mission Robustness? Add the corresponding symbols to a completion Mission Patch. A bit like the kerbaltech ribbon generator. Then you can also post the highest level achieved by any completion for a particular challenge; Stock has Gold Mission Robustness, RO has Bronze Mission Robustness.

I love this! How many categories should we try to have? I have like 6 listed, but I don't know how compelling they each are.

I think it could also be cool to have a list of missions that have collected together the most gold medals or something. It's one thing to make an amazing lander, but if it's so heavy that you can't get it there...

It also makes me think that the list of medals is going to be really, really long; but maybe that's fun! The rover alone is making me think that we need a medal for things like: Pressurized rover under x mass, pressurized rover seating x people, pressurized rover with x science experiments, etc. What do you think? How do we even represent that? I was thinking about making a giant graph but I don't know where to fit in the descriptions. Need mouseovers tooltips! :)

Actually, maybe we do need a whole website...

ISRU using or not using ISRU makes such a big difference that it's not really the same challenge, see DPOMAC getting free (small time cost) fuel at Minmus & Duna vs hauling everything from Kerbal surface. I think ISRU or not should certainly be separate 'classes' of a challenge.

I want to use ISRU but I'm not clear on Regolith. It seems to be a substrate for building ISRU mods, and Karbonite is built on top of it. Karbonite has a Real Fuels tweak so it can produce fuel RO can use, but it comes from a magic imaginary resource - which doesn't seem very realism overhaul faithful. Is there a mod in the pipeline that is like RealISRU? I've used DunaDirect to do Sabatier to F&O on Duna, but saw a comment that it may hardcode things and not be able to be tweaked for RealFuel, Universal Storage also has Sabatier, but it cannot source atmospheric CO2.

I think it makes sense to have ISRU and non-ISRU sub-category for RO vs Stock.

I don't know what the chemistry is, but I think it's not that outlandish to make the a hydrazine-like fuel out of what's available on Mars in the soil or atmosphere. The challenge I think is getting the oxygen half of the equation, but maybe that's possible too if there really is water moisture in the top 5 inches of soil. At the very least, that means you only have to pack in an oxidizer.

It would be interesting to find out what the Regolith/Karbonite mods look like in RO. Would you be willing to look into that?

So, side-note, I'm wondering about the permanent aspect of this mission. It's possible that it's big enough that it's not possible to do three of them. That would be something like 36, very risky 100t launches with 36 rendezvous (at least). Thoughts?

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I installed RO and Engine Igniter (plus some utility and eye candy ones - you should add 6s Tubes to the recommended!) last night; may try it out today.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, I think Regolith came installed with RO (or was suggested by it). I'll look into that.

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DBowman

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Quick note re 'useful reactions' : http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68797-In-Situ-Resource-Utilization-Useful-Reactions #9 Carbon Dioxide Decomposition: 2 CO2 + Energy --> 2 CO + O2 - I think it's mentioned in the Mars Design Reference Architecture 5, I think I recall they were going to ISRU the 02 for life support/oxidizer (?). I was thinking to poke at Universal Storage (which has a 'mod me' guide) and/or Karbonite to see how one might clone parts and tweak the reactions inside.

Also from DRA5 they were looking at pressurized rovers with 15 day life support 'range', it might be good to 'relax' the "> 10 days is long term => 1/2 crew capacity" to "> 15 days is long term" - just so we could have rovers that fit the DRA mission profiles without them mass bloating. DRA5 pressure rover could could be a medal? Also I was amazed how slow the rovers they plan are 0.5 km/hour was the slowest lowest power proposal. One key thing with rovers would have to be the extent to which they were 'all terrain'. There are probably some sightseeing/science locations that you'd be crazy to land on/near but roving to 'proves' a quality of the rover, maybe also A-B traverses that challenge the 'all terrain-ness' of a rover. Does RO attempt any 'realism' of Mars surface?

Re permanent, it does seem like a 'big ask' just getting there and back RO is a huge achievement on it's own. I'd say make it like the bronze (there and back), silver (multiple windows/landings), gold (permanent / continuous occupation after first landing). It can sit out there, probably unattainable, like Moby .... for the Ahab contenders.

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I've been playing with Kerbal weather systems, KerbalMass, and keepfit over the last couple days and I think they're not quite ready for prime-time yet, though they are promising for sure.

Rebuilding my apollo tonight to make sure that I can indeed lift 100t as a test. It's not going well so far :P

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Tonight I've been looking into some achievements, and like many before me, I'm struggling to come up with a system that seems satisfying and coherent. I can come up with some categories and some medal names within those categories but it ends up feeling pretty flat.

So I think that probably means that I'm starting too low level. We should try to flesh out what the guiding principles of the mission are going to be first. Then I think the categories are going to fall out of it.

When I think about this challenge, I think the interesting thing for me is the learning objectives.

  • Learn about and engage with the real Mars.
  • Viscerally feel the excitement of being an astronaut.
  • Educate and excite those around me about going to space.

Some more specific sub-goals.

  • Understand the communications needs between planetary travel
  • Research the crew health concerns
  • Discover more about real-life launchers and engines
  • Learn about the challenges present in launching from an inclined launch site
  • Finally understand what launch windows are
  • Learn what it's like to try to pilot inside a rocket

So, DBowman and others, what is it about this challenge that initially excited you? Are the goals above motivating to you? Do you have other specific sub-goals that are interesting to you?

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Challenge #1 - Find candidates for landing sites

We need to find a home, but we also need to understand how much RO's version of Mars is like the real Mars. So we need to evaluate sites using things like ScanSat and compare them with important features on the real mars. Ideally, we'll be able to use these sites to go out and actually put flags down on Duna in the right places!

Your solutions will be used by almost everyone who attempts this challenge!

Solutions:

Stock-hardmode

  • xxx.xxN by xxx.xxW - username

Realism Overhaul

  • xxx.xxN by xxx.xxW - username

Requirements:

  • Broad flat area, 10-20km diameter
  • Kerbal rover access to as many biomes and monuments as possible (within 100-200km)
  • Robot access to areas of biological concern, recent craters, mid-latitude gullies, "pasted-on" terrain, thermal anomalies, very young volcanic rocks.
  • Plentiful in-situ resources

Challenge #2 - Build a savegame w/ existing assets in place

One of the hardest parts of the real Mars missions is that signal delay is a real thing. NASA normally tells the astronauts exactly what to do, every minute of every day. But with a signal delay of 45m it becomes significantly harder to do that.

Regardless, if we don't have the assets in place RemoteTech will be a very difficult mod to include, but it's such an important part of the mission that we should at least attempt. The goal of this is to create a savegame with the assets in place that will facilitate people to communicate with Mars using RemoteTech.

Please try to keep to just the mods listed in the first post, but if it's critical please mention which mods you used people will know what to install.

Like the first challenge, this is the bedrock of people's mission attempts; your work here will help people for months or maybe years.

Solutions:

Stock-hardmode

  • link to post - username

Realism Overhaul

  • link to post - username

Requirements:

  • Link to your savegame file (github/gist?)
  • List of extra mods needed
  • Images of satellites and their orbits (imgur)
  • Geostationary satellites in place at Earth
  • Polar, heliosynchronous, or highly eccentric satellites if needed
  • Replica mars assets in roughly correct orbit
    • Mars Global Surveyor
    • Mars Odyssey
    • Mars Reconnaisance Orbiter (MRO)

    [*]Recommendations of addition assets to deliver to Mars (aerostationary or polar?)

    [*]Recommendations of on-ground communications devices for use on Mars

    [*]Recommendations of in-transit communications devices for use by MTV

Challenge #3 - Create a capable model of the Ares V Heavy Lift Vehicle

This is a relatively small challenge, but it's extremely important. We need you to make a lifter that looks and acts like the Ares V heavy lifter capable of lofting 110t or thereabouts to a nice, low eccentricity 407km orbit.

Solutions:

Stock-hardmode

  • link to post - username

Realism Overhaul

  • link to post - username

Requirements:

  • Make the craft file available (github/gist?)
  • Lots of pretty photos!
  • List MechJeb ascent profile if possible
  • Ensure there's enough communications for RT2 to use
  • Autonomous ascent and/or rendezvous is acceptable and expected
  • 2 reusable SRBs strapped on to the side (specs?)
  • 5 RS-68B engines on base stage (specs?)
  • 1 J2-X engine in upper stage (specs?)
  • 3323t launch mass, 110.3m height
  • 40t, 10mx30m fairing (supposed to be aerocapture capable, but maybe we need to skip this)
  • Capable of launching to 407km circular orbit

- - - Updated - - -

This morning I sat down and thought through a lot of the challenge ideas and had some great breakthroughs from reading the DRA docs.

As I read more each week I'll continue to update and post more challenges, but I think this is a great starting point. I would appreciate any feedback that you all have.

Also, if these look okay, should I move this to a different thread or try to get the title of this thread changed?

Thank you all for the continued encouragement!!

Edited by vosechu
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DBowman

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re 'why the DPOMAC': I'd just done Jool 5 low mass which I'd found very satisfying because of the engineering challenge to figure out how to 'do more with less' and because I'd had to learn a lot to complete it (reliable rendezvous, periaptic kicks, more intricate mission plans). So I was looking for something with the same kind of scope for learning something new (chute & almost crash landings, reasonable aerocapture, ...).

Though I'd only taken on one 'aspect' of the Jool 5 I liked that it had a number of 'streams' you could take on, like a bundle of challenges. If I'd been less prepared I might have taken on one of the higher mass challenges.

Things I liked about DPOMAC:

  • It was 'natural challenge' and didn't seem arbitrary - maximize kerbals (quantity?) or achievements (quality?) for a mass budget (the most arbitrary part of the challenge). It didn't have a grindy 'collect all', or 'max arbitrary game science' etc feel to it.
  • Heading toward more realism, but with a 'fall back' if you were not into the mods - again natural limits, the physics limits.
  • It wasn't 'replica' challenge; for me "Apollo Style" sounds fun, but "Recreate Apollo" less fun .
  • I liked that it was doable 'stock-ish' - you didn't need mid future or magic resources.
  • I liked imagining it as our 80s that never happened.
  • It was almost but not quite too big - depending how 'optimized' and 'quantity' you were going for the logistics of the missions can get too complex for my fun.

On the downside:

  • It wasn't clear to me how approachable TAC & DRE were, and using them helps a lot: TAC is lighter than mono, DRE is less arbitrary than "buggy" fairings and 're-entry effects'
  • Maximizing primary score forces a particular approach - so it'd be better to have more scoring "paths"; "fastest flag and return" vs "max Kerbols on an opposition(?) style mission" will be very different beasts.

Getting into KSP for me was mainly about getting a some kind of feel for what the real thing was like and a nostalgia for lost opportunities since NASA took a 'wrong turn at Albuquerque" - where are my orbital solar power stations microwaving the energy down the well?

Edited by DBowman
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Yesterday I took a stab at making Module Manager compatible .cfg files to create new parts that are modifications of existing ones - same model different behavior. I followed the instructions in US "mod me" guide, and thrashed around with some other parts. It seemed to work ok 'in the end'. I made:

  1. A clone of the US FuelCell that only runs if there is EC missing, the stock one just consumes reactants at a constant rate regardless. I think there is something funny with craft (with some parts?) at high warp though where they consume EC and run the batteries down by 500 - 700 - so 'my' Fuel Cell would just use all it's reactants under those circumstances. Anyway it's a test.
  2. A modified Stock radial air intake that sucks in CO2. I've no idea if it checks that the atmosphere actually has CO2, but probably one could tweak a Karbonite atmosphere filter that probably does check.
  3. A modified US Sabatier reactor that now does CO2 Decomposition (2 CO2 + Energy --> 2 CO + O2) which sounds like what DRA5 wants to use to make oxidizer (#9 from http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68797-In-Situ-Resource-Utilization-Useful-Reactions). It will only work if you have a CO2 Intake.

So it seems like we could assemble a collection of DRA 'work-alike' parts by cobbling together and tweaking other mods with permissive licences. I imagine it would be easy to match RealFuel production; methane, propane, and even kerosene should be possible from Mars.

Problems:

  1. KSP units for things: it's all a bit mysterious. 1 unit of oxidizer looks like it weighs 4 liters of LOX. There are arguments over what liquid fuel is.
  2. Figuring out reaction rates and energy required: I just plugged in very high numbers to make it easy to see it working, but I haven't figured out any real numbers for input/output. DRA5 says 300 days @ 23 kW, I didn't see a number for how much Oxidizer they thought to produce.
  3. Power: if the US guys are right and 1 EC = 33 watts then running CO2 Decomp required about 700 EC 956 RTGs - 76 tons. Oh I see RO has 1 EC = 1kW, I've not seen what RTGs make in RO though.
  4. Energy: I'm no chemist so I've no idea how much energy in and out the various reactions take - so we'd have to source info from somewhere. Seems like lots of mods make Sabatier require input energy (for 'game balance'?) when it's exothermic and generates heat.

None of this sounds insurmountable given some time and effort.

Edited by DBowman
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vosechu

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I'm on the bus so I can't respond in full, but I wanted to say that the mm work you're doing sounds awesome! I had done a little mm work on some of the ro stuff so it makes sense that we might provide this. I wonder if tweaking the tacls things might be easier though? I think they have a sabatier and some sort of water condenser.

My big question is whether my proposed challenges seem at all interesting to you? My thought was to release a new challenge each week that was bite sized enough to get done, but also too hard to do right all by myself. Finding a compatible home for instance, that's a lot of work to find 3-5 possibilities. Let alone to do it in ro, stock, and stock hardmode. Same thing with the save file.

My hope is that this will lead to the end goal of assembling the whole mission using your own, or someone else's craft files, and being able to do a simply overwhelming challenge. But I'll admit, there's no points so maybe that sucks? Also, no badge yet, so we need to find a graphic designer.

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