Shmelta Vee and TWR readouts

[Nemrav]

Oh boys, they wanted to add it, and now its pushed 1 update back... no clue why they didnt want a surprise 1.0 in-case of these "need a lil more time" things. oh well, not that I ever ended up using KER when I had it modded in (still just ended up gues-timating)

but please, while we rant back and forth don't do this :

-snip- it's basic math... -snip-

when referring to calculus.... its not exactly... taught until university (grade 12 is pre-calculus where I live)

[Bill Phil]

when referring to calculus.... its not exactly... taught until university (grade 12 is pre-calculus where I live)

Most scientific calculators have a natural logarithm function. Beyond that, it's basic math.

Divide full mass by empty mass, then take the natural log, and then multiply that by the exhaust velocity.

[klgraham1013]

Oh boys, they wanted to add it, and now its pushed 1 update back... no clue why they didnt want a surprise 1.0 in-case of these "need a lil more time" things.

Did they want to add it? They spent update after update saying it went against their ethos. Then they want to try to add it on the 1.0 update? I'm not giving them that excuse. It should have been in the works many updates ago. Don't try to rush essential features into the 1.0 update.

[John FX]

I sometimes fail to understand SQUAD and some of the decisions they make. Readouts are one area.

It seems so basic and obvious to have these numbers constantly available during flight or to have them in some form of pre flight mission designer.

[tntristan12]

+1. Refusing to provide the player with vital information about their rocket and/or flight path does not introduce any actual challenge. Any difficulty this produces is necessarily artificial, and should thus be avoided.

Imagine an FPS where the game doesn't tell you how many bullets you have, what level you're at, or how much health you have. Yes, all of these things are things that (in "real life") you would need to calculate for yourself, but how many games actually ask you to do that? When was the last time anyone played an FPS where you had to mentally keep track of your own bullet count!?

I maintain that communicating a rocket's delta-v, TWR, orbital elements, etc. is VITAL to producing a positive player experience. There is absolutely no excuse for not including these in "1.0". Period.

[Hcube]

Imagine an FPS where the game doesn't tell you how many bullets you have, what level you're at, or how much health you have. Yes, all of these things are things that (in "real life") you would need to calculate for yourself, but how many games actually ask you to do that? When was the last time anyone played an FPS where you had to mentally keep track of your own bullet count!?

Insurgency does that, and it's the best FPS i have ever played.

This is just a bad analogy, because keeping track of the bullet count has to do with skill, adrenaline (atleast in insurgency, try counting when tou are stressed) tactics... It (paradoxically) adds something to the game.

I agree with your point tho :In KSP, not having a deltaV reading is not like this, because it doesn't add anything : it just makes you less aware of what you are doing. Theres a difference between trying a few times to go to LKO failing and guessing till you make it, and failing your 5hour-long Eeloo mission at the last moment because you miss 5m/s.

[regex]

but please, while we rant back and forth don't do this :

when referring to calculus.... its not exactly... taught until university (grade 12 is pre-calculus where I live)

Tsoilkovsky's equation is literally basic math. You can use the approximation of ln, everything else is simple division/multiplication. Even when you add in multiple engine isps it's not terribly complicated. So, please, don't inflate the difficulty of the math to make it look like newbies/young people won't/don't get it. That's an argument that Squad would have you believe in order to continue lazily starving you for information because they, what, don't want to figure out how to present it?

[Sonny_Jim]

I'm in the "Yes we need dV readouts, No I don't want KSP to turn into a spreadsheet game" middle of the fence. The simple solution is to find somewhere in tech tree/building upgrades/kerbal stats to slot in just the two basic figures (dV and TWR) and it would make everyone a lot happier.

[regex]

I'm in the "Yes we need dV readouts, No I don't want KSP to turn into a spreadsheet game" middle of the fence. The simple solution is to find somewhere in tech tree/building upgrades/kerbal stats to slot in just the two basic figures (dV and TWR) and it would make everyone a lot happier.

Considering that it's essentially basic math from 1813, way before any rockets were ever launched, and that no sane space agency would ever launch a rocket without knowing how far it could go, it should be available from the very beginning of the player's career. It's basic information. Put it in a pop-up control so that "guesstimators" don't have to be troubled with it.

[tntristan12]

Why would presenting the player with useful information turn it into a spreadsheet game? You want to talk about soreadsheets? Right now, opening up Excel is the best way I have to compute rocket delta-v without downloading a mod to do it for me.

In my case, the distinct lack of a delta-v readout has literally turned KSP into an actual spreadsheet game...

[klgraham1013]

I'm in the "Yes we need dV readouts, No I don't want KSP to turn into a spreadsheet game" middle of the fence. The simple solution is to find somewhere in tech tree/building upgrades/kerbal stats to slot in just the two basic figures (dV and TWR) and it would make everyone a lot happier.

When did this whole spreadsheet idea start? We're talking about a couple of numbers here. It's not that complicated.

[Red Iron Crown]

When did this whole spreadsheet idea start? We're talking about a couple of numbers here. It's not that complicated.

Apologies, I think I was first to mention the policy of avoiding overwhelming players with numbers as "Kerbal Spreadsheet Program". If anything, TWR and dV are more important than some of the numbers we are presented with now, like part count, fuel flow rates, even vessel mass to some degree.

[Bill Phil]

Tsoilkovsky's equation is literally basic math. You can use the approximation of ln, everything else is simple division/multiplication. Even when you add in multiple engine isps it's not terribly complicated. So, please, don't inflate the difficulty of the math to make it look like newbies/young people won't/don't get it. That's an argument that Squad would have you believe in order to continue lazily starving you for information because they, what, don't want to figure out how to present it?

The derivation is basic calculus, but the final equation is basic mathematics.

Squad should give it to us as an option. This satisfies people who don't want to use it, and people who do.

[klgraham1013]

The derivation is basic calculus, but the final equation is basic mathematics.

Squad should give it to us as an option. This satisfies people who don't want to use it, and people who do.

Like a button in the toolbar, much as KER is currently?

[tntristan12]

Why does it need to be an option? It's a number in the engineering report! Don't open the engineering report if you enjoy building by the seat of your pants. There's no shame in that. Sometimes I like to build my rockets first and then analyze the delta-v characteristics after I've made it look all pretty. There is nothing stopping players from using or disregarding the new information, but not presenting it at all is to impose a very specific game play style upon the player. Isn't that what squad DOESN'T want?

[Bill Phil]

Like a button in the toolbar, much as KER is currently?

How should I know? I don't play with mods that often, or even the game. (I know, a sin...)

[klgraham1013]

How should I know? I don't play with mods that often, or even the game. (I know, a sin...)

Essentially, Kerbal Engineer adds an icon in the toolbar along with the resources, notifications, contacts buttons. You click it to open up the display with the information. Of course, I always have it open.

[klgraham1013]

Maxmaps on Reddit:

The dV readouts were actually part of a much larger feature to expand on the skills for engineer and scientist kerbals. After many revisions and work on them, we decided to hold them for a little longer, as they were simply not up to standard.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, the things I could name in KSP that are not up to "standard."

*cough*The Pool*cough*

Edited April 27, 2015 by klgraham1013