[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[rabidninjawombat]

I will be adding almost no parts - I view that part as a framework for mods to extend (hence why it is toggleabgle).

I'm really looking foward to this!

[Vhaegrant]

I will be adding almost no parts - I view that part as a framework for mods to extend (hence why it is toggleabgle).

Thanks for the response

I don't know how I didn't make the connection between Habitation space and the Workspace/Living space section of the 'Efficiency and Load' page on the USI Wiki. I take it they will be related or are they intended to be separate?

I can throw in some additional MKV Inflatable Logistic Modules for 4 additional workspaces and consider them to be 'rest and relaxation' areas.

As to additional module assets, I suspect your stirling work on the Karibou Expedition Rover will fill many of the gaps in my base building desires

[RoverDude]

Show and tell time

The first new bit being added into USI-LS is the concept of living space.

This is expressed in two ways. First, how long a Kerbal has been away from Kerbin (a 'Home Sickness' factor). Better and roomier habs (or, habs that are not full to capacity) will increase this. This number does not go down, only up. So one very viable option is to just EVA all of your Kerbals and give them some 'alone' time (this is illustrated in the capsule above, where the 'home' value is different for the two Kerbals on board).

The second factor is all about being rested and comfortable in the short term. this one can go down, and is calculated based on the current circumstances (i.e. 44 days is for a 30-day capsule at 66% capacity). Unlike homesickness, this number resets every time the Kerbal enters a new vessel. So building R&R facilities is totally a possibility.

So an example:

You could have a large MKS base that gives your crew lots of space (and helps with homesickness), but they still need decent living space, and will also need someplace to sleep if they leave their base (in, say, an ascent ship or a Rover).

If *EITHER* of these numbers fail, your Kerbal gets sad and will take a penalty (fully configurable of course).

Lastly. The scavenging mechanic (where they poke around looking for food) is in place. I'll be using a chunk of this logic to also allow Kerbals to 'rest' in disconnected bases/modules. So a lander that lands near your R&R station can take advantage of it without having to manually disembark your Kerbals.

(Most of this is wrapped up - ETA is 'soon')

[Businfu]

Gotta say that even post show-and-tell I'm not sure I understand the mechanic. Then again, I'd rather you not waste any time explaining it and instead release it so I can try it out!!

[monstah]

This is expressed in two ways. First, how long a Kerbal has been away from Kerbin (a 'Home Sickness' factor). Better and roomier habs (or, habs that are not full to capacity) will increase this. This number does not go down, only up. So one very viable option is to just EVA all of your Kerbals and give them some 'alone' time (this is illustrated in the capsule above, where the 'home' value is different for the two Kerbals on board).

This wording is confusing. Better and roomier habs increase home sickness? Give them 'alone' time for what, if the number doesn't go down? Is it possible you mixed both factors in your explanation?

In any case, this sounds promising.

[Vhaegrant]

I came for the rocket science I stay for the Sims in Space

I wonder just how far the interaction of Kerbals can go? Additional stats to reflect introversion/extroversion (need to be alone or with others), additional types of Kerbals beyond Pilot, Engineer, Scientist, Tourist to ease Homesickness such as 'Family'. Kerbals that just don't work well together.

Probably not at the harder mechanical edge of space exploration but social interaction and the long term psychological impact of isolation stand to be the big limiters of deep space exploration.

[RoverDude]

Then we shall try a rephrasing

Assume that all parts have a rating. This is essentially how many Kerbal-months you can stuff a Kerbal into them without said Kerbal going bananas (and something bad happening).

The default is one Kerbal-Month (KM) per crew capacity. Hence, any default pod or structural element, when stuffed 100%, will have a rating of 30 days (and these are Kerbal six-hour days for clarity). Now. Odds are, you're going to want a mission longer than 30 days. So you have two choices: Add more hab space, or send less Kerbals.

To make adding hab space easier, I am adding in a partmodule that allows you to design parts specifically for habitation (and lets you plunk in, via a field, a KM rating).

Add up all of the KM's from crew capacity and KM's from your hab parts in this and other nearby ships (since disconnected bases are supported), as well as all of the crew in that range, and you have your hab rating.

Example: A Karibou cab has a crew capacity of 3 and a KM bonus of 1 (because of the little bunk I added to the IVA) for a total of 4. The two inflatable emergency shelters have a crew capacity of 2 each, and a KM bonus of 10 each (for a total of 2+2+10+10, or, 24 KMs). Note that the KM bonus only applies when inflatables are actually inflated

So. That Karibou above has a KM rating of 8 when the shelters are deflated (3+1+2+2), and an additional 20 (10+10) when both shelters are inflated, for a max of 28 KMs.

Assuming it has a full cab of 3 Kerbals, your final habitation rating is 9.3 months, or 280 days (we'll be using days in the rest of our examples, though in actuality we track it down to the second).

Now. let's put these new numbers into practice.

A Kerbal has TWO timers. The first, is how long they have been gone from Kerbin. So, let us assume you launched said Karibou to the Mun in preparation for building a larger ground base. We compare the time they departed Kerbin against the hab rating calculated above. So as long as they have better digs within 280 days, you're golden.

Now let's say it's day 200.. and they finish their base. This new base has a hab rating of 1000. Since it's 200 days out from Kerbin, our brave explorers will tolerate it for another 800 days. This is the 'Home' value you see in the sample screenshot. The hab rating used to calculate this never goes down, only up (and you will see why below).

So, let's assume it is now day 300 since the crew left Kerbin. If your crew were still in the Karibou, they would all have gone nuts, unless they watney'd it up, and you had only one Kerbal taking advantage of all of that open space (in which case, you could stick around for a sweet 840 days). Your base (which started with a rating of 1000) is still good for another 700 days (1000-300).

So what happens if your crew needs to take a spin in the Karibou?

Well, it turns out we track TWO numbers. The first is what we've seen so far, and based on Kerbin mission time and the HIGHEST hab rating the Kerbal has seen. So as your Kerbal moves from ship to ship, it looks and sees if said Kerbal can get an upgrade.

The second number is reset every time a Kerbal enters a vessel.

So in the example above, our first number (our Home value) is still +700 (1000-300). Since they entered the base on day 200, their 'Rest' number is +800 (1000-200). If they leave on day 300 to go take a trip in the Karibou, their rest number becomes 280 (0 + the Karibou's 280 hab rating).

At this point, Home is +700 and Rest is +280, so all is good.

Our Kerbals go running around for 250 days (cutting it close). They then re-enter the base. They have been off Kerbin for 550 days (300 + 250). So their new Home rating upon entering the base is +450 (1000-550). Their new Rest rating is 1000 (1000-0) because Rest resets every time they change ships.

This crew will of course have to find better digs or get rotated out in 450 days, since if EITHER of the numbers goes below 0, bad things happen (so in the same vein, if the rover trip above became a bit more permanent, the crew would have had bad things happen past day 280, even though at that time their Home value would have still been +420).

Now, that was a lot of stuff. But suffice it to say it can boil down to 'Have enough space to make your crew happy long term, and if you're moving around, make sure you have enough space to make them happy for the duration of their trip away from the main base'.

Hope that helps a bit

Edited September 9, 2015 by RoverDude

[Bloody_looser]

So, these timers apply to a said kerbal in a said vessel and not to the vessel itself? That's nice.

[RoverDude]

They are tied to the kerbal but based on the vessel stats

[Sharkman Briton]

Hey, Rover, I started work on a mod adding a resource inspired a bit by Karborundum, but it's a bit of a mess ATM (1.25m Xenon Tank missing colour, ISRU and Ion Engine gone.) so some help from you would be very appreciated, and any tips for mod-making is as well.

Heres the post for it.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/133849-The-Unobtanium-Mod-My-first-attempt-at-a-mod?p=2186653#post2186653

Edited September 9, 2015 by Sharkman Briton

[mhoram]

... long post ...

Thanks for the details.

Do I understand the system correct:

I have a station in LKO with a crew-capacity of 100 Kerbal Years.

I dock a small ship (crew capacity of 1 Kerbal month) with a single Kerbal and his Home-number should be set to 100 Kerbal Years.

I undock and send the Kerbal in his small ship on a 100 year trip and once a month just before the Rest number goes down to 0, I go to Eva for 5 seconds so that the rest timer resets.

In this setup I can let the Kerbal travel 100 years in a small ship.

The scavenging mechanic (where they poke around looking for food) is in place.

Good news. Looking forward to that - had some problems with the pilot of the USI-Logistics-rover quitting because he ran out of supplies, which ment that supplies were no longer distributed, because the logistics rover stopped working.

[RoverDude]

Thanks for the details.

Do I understand the system correct:

I have a station in LKO with a crew-capacity of 100 Kerbal Years.

I dock a small ship (crew capacity of 1 Kerbal month) with a single Kerbal and his Home-number should be set to 100 Kerbal Years.

I undock and send the Kerbal in his small ship on a 100 year trip and once a month just before the Rest number goes down to 0, I go to Eva for 5 seconds so that the rest timer resets.

In this setup I can let the Kerbal travel 100 years in a small ship.

Yep And I am ok with that setup, because it means your Kerbal is at least getting outside and being able to do some interesting things.

[Vhaegrant]

Would you even need to place the larger habitation in orbit?

Building a large tent city by the side of the runway and walking your Kerbals to it and then back to a spaceplane for getting them into orbit should work the same.

[RoverDude]

Would you even need to place the larger habitation in orbit?

Building a large tent city by the side of the runway and walking your Kerbals to it and then back to a spaceplane for getting them into orbit should work the same.

Sure, for your long term timer. Though you're still stuck with constantly moving Kerbals around to keep things interesting... which sounds fine in theory but would be an absolute bear in practice. Eventually, you're going to want a larger hab where you plan on having said Kerbals hang out. i.e. imagine having to place alarm clocks every 30 days on a two year transfer... and missing even one of them hoses your mission. Not fun. Far better to just include appropriate space.

[Vhaegrant]

I appreciate the micro-management would be a bit of a nightmare

Looking forward to the release so I can see how it works in game.

When setting the Habitation rating on the Karibou in the example if you got the other passengers to take a long walk, or just dropped them off and went for a quick spin, would it then reset the Hab rating to the 9.3 month mark? Of course you'd need to do that for each Kerbal in the rover.

Any thoughts about the effects of being planetside as opposed to being in orbit or in transfer? Or are Kerbals just inherently homesick?

[IggyHitokage]

I'm not entirely sure if this is the correct place to ask, but since some of us play with planet packs, we're generally looking at multi-year interplanetary travel just from Kerbin alone, not even accounting for an ideal window back plus travel time. Would Deep Freeze be able to counter or even halt the effects of habitation, at least until they're unfrozen? I know it currently supports USI-LS for Supply-freeze, but it would be reassuring that they can also tack on habitation alongside that.

[RoverDude]

Same as life support, being on Kerbin below a certain altitude kicks in the reset. Once you're in orbit, you are following the homesick hab rules.

And yes, if folks take the long walk space is freed up and the numbers go up for remaining crew. They can later return, and the folks 'left alone' retain their higher home value though their rest value will go back down (this is shown in the screenshot above).

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I'm not entirely sure if this is the correct place to ask, but since some of us play with planet packs, we're generally looking at multi-year interplanetary travel just from Kerbin alone, not even accounting for an ideal window back plus travel time. Would Deep Freeze be able to counter or even halt the effects of habitation, at least until they're unfrozen? I know it currently supports USI-LS for Supply-freeze, but it would be reassuring that they can also tack on habitation alongside that.

Totally depends on how DeepFreeze works it, but I'd expect you would just need appropriate habs that can handle multi-year voyages (MKS/OKS would have these).

[IggyHitokage]

Totally depends on how DeepFreeze works it, but I'd expect you would just need appropriate habs that can handle multi-year voyages (MKS/OKS would have these).

Guess we'll see, I'm genuinely scared though. Fiddled with Transfer Window Planner and it's showing a 22-year minimum voyage for one of the outer planets.

[Vhaegrant]

Same as life support, being on Kerbin below a certain altitude kicks in the reset. Once you're in orbit, you are following the homesick hab rules.

I was really thinking about other planets and/or moons other than Kerbin, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Are all planetary destinations eventually going to need a shift swap system ferrying the initial band of settlers back to Kerbin or brace for mutiny?

Should the difference in planetary parameters (gravity/ temperature/ atmosphere) affect the homesickness? The more unlike Kerbin the quicker they get homesick.

[rabidninjawombat]

Guess we'll see, I'm genuinely scared though. Fiddled with Transfer Window Planner and it's showing a 22-year minimum voyage for one of the outer planets.

I use Deep freeze currently with USI-LS and it works fine, the kerbals are pulled out of active and treated as Frozen(basically dead) so they do not use resources. I'd imagine the DF Dev may need to update the mod for the new release of USI-LS, but i dont see why he wouldnt

[RoverDude]

Guess we'll see, I'm genuinely scared though. Fiddled with Transfer Window Planner and it's showing a 22-year minimum voyage for one of the outer planets.

Then you better plan on building ark ships.

I was really thinking about other planets and/or moons other than Kerbin, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Are all planetary destinations eventually going to need a shift swap system ferrying the initial band of settlers back to Kerbin or brace for mutiny?

Should the difference in planetary parameters (gravity/ temperature/ atmosphere) affect the homesickness? The more unlike Kerbin the quicker they get homesick.

Nope, Kerbin is Kerbin. Homesick is kinda a misnomer, it's really an abstraction over wear and tear, personal space, comfort, etc.

That being said, I'm not opposed to having a multiplier that helps out based on the situation.

I use Deep freeze currently with USI-LS and it works fine, the kerbals are pulled out of active and treated as Frozen(basically dead) so they do not use resources. I'd imagine the DF Dev may need to update the mod for the new release of USI-LS, but i dont see why he wouldnt

Correct, because being dead won't help with this as it's not a resource consumption issue

[tater]

If someone is playing with deadly USILS, is the habitation aspect separate? Ie: If I run out of actual LS, my guys die, but if 3 are sent to Eeloo in nothing but a mk1-2 pod, they'll go crazy and on strike long before they run out of the massive stack of LS I included?

[DigitalProeliator]

I think having the option for something to reset the Homesick value would be a must for some mods like Civilian Population if people want to keep using USI-LS. Not having that option would totally hose my plan on colonizing the other planets or systems with some planet mods.

[monstah]

Great explanation, RoverDude. I'm completely okay with your setup and it's implications, and of the use of the word "Watney'd". Looking forward to it!

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That being said, I'm not opposed to having a multiplier that helps out based on the situation.

Say, the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere, for example.

Edited September 10, 2015 by monstah

[RoverDude]

If someone is playing with deadly USILS, is the habitation aspect separate? Ie: If I run out of actual LS, my guys die, but if 3 are sent to Eeloo in nothing but a mk1-2 pod, they'll go crazy and on strike long before they run out of the massive stack of LS I included?

It's a separate flag so you can mix and match.

I think having the option for something to reset the Homesick value would be a must for some mods like Civilian Population if people want to keep using USI-LS. Not having that option would totally hose my plan on colonizing the other planets or systems with some planet mods.

Resetting is the wrong answer. Having habitats that can have extraordinarily long habitation values is the right answer, and the design intent.

Great explanation, RoverDude. I'm completely okay with your setup and it's implications, and of the use of the word "Whatney'd". Looking forward to it!

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Say, the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere, for example.

Correct