[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[Tarheel1999]

  On 10/19/2016 at 9:04 PM, charliesoap4 said:

Not running out of EC.  Is there a way for the LS GUI to list Kerbal days instead of Earth days?

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It defaults to kerbal days and I don't think it's adjustable to earth days but I could be wrong on this point. 

[Crabman]

  On 10/19/2016 at 9:04 PM, charliesoap4 said:

Not running out of EC.  Is there a way for the LS GUI to list Kerbal days instead of Earth days?

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If you are having this much trouble with habitation/home time you can just tweak it at KSC view. Increase or decrease numbers and see what is the best configuration for you.

[RoverDude]

  On 10/19/2016 at 12:45 AM, Yuri kagarin56 said:

Is there anyway to bump up habitation time? Ive started using this LS mod and Im rather unfamiliar. Is adding parts with crew slots the only way to increase hab time?

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You can change the config if you're getting too much hab time pressure.  but in general - hitchikers and cupolas, or configure one of the inline life support modules as a hab multiplier.

  On 10/19/2016 at 1:06 AM, PocketBrotector said:

Are there balancing guidelines for incorporating life support functionality into other parts under the new v0.5 system? i.e. the ratios and capacities for recyclers, converters, multipliers, etc. to assign to parts based on their mass and other considerations?

Asking because I had created configs for earlier versions of USI-LS to support other part packs (e.g. Nertea's Stockalike Station Parts). Want to make sure I am following the current balancing logic if I submit updates.

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The new ones are not ready yet - letting everything settle first.

  On 10/19/2016 at 2:58 AM, Yuri kagarin56 said:

For some reason none of these exist for me. Im doing 1.0.5 version.

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Sorry, no support for versions that old :/

  On 10/19/2016 at 11:51 AM, Bishop149 said:

I've had the persistent tourist issue too, maybe some mechanism should be introduced that upon return to KSC their status is reset regardless of what was going on with their life support in flight.

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They should return to normal after hitting 25K altitude - if not, that's a bug, send me a save file.

  On 10/19/2016 at 9:04 PM, charliesoap4 said:

Not running out of EC.  Is there a way for the LS GUI to list Kerbal days instead of Earth days?

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It does automatically based on your game settings

  On 10/19/2016 at 9:10 PM, MiniMatt said:

Another quick balance note, possibly one which might provide some relief to the Minmus mission habitation timer discussion above.

The viewing cupola versus the observation cupola.

Both mass 0.35t, both provide a hab multiplier of 0.5 affecting 1 crew, both have identical impact/heat/pressure/gee tolerances, and both have identical mounting concerns
But the viewing cupola additionally has a single crew seat, and additionally provides 1 hab-month.

The effect of this is that in order to bump up a regular 2-crew cabin (eg Mk2 plane or lander cabins) to a ~20 day habitation one can add either 7 observation cupolas for 2.45t mass, or 2 viewing cupolas for 0.7t mass.

 

Next one is more of a gut feeling rather than a directly observable inbalance:

Hitchhiker versus Mk2 Crew Cabin

Hitchhiker at 2.5t will keep 4 kerbals entertained for 165 days.
Mk2 Crew Cabin at 2.0t will keep 4 kerbals entertained for 7 days.

Now I realise that 500kg difference is significant - that's a lot of thumb drives filled with hard core Belgian trance-electro pop-jazz funk-disco fusion - but when you add other multiplier modules the disparity grows rapidly.
In order to turn a Mk2 Crew Cabin into a 4-kerbal 165 day expedition you'd need to add 42 observation cupolas (14.7t), or 21 viewing cupolas (7.35t), or 8 PPD-12 Cupolas (14.4t)

Suggestion would be to add some kerbal months to the other passenger cabins, whilst leaving an advantage with the hitchhiker to account for it's mass-per-passenger penalty and it's physical size.

 

I'm finding multi-year missions quite straightforward (especially when adding the MKS modules), but ~20-30 day missions have a tendency to railroad toward fairly narrow choices.

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The cupola needs to be fixed then.  The hitchhiker is explicitly configured for habitation, I did not make a version for the Mk2 crew cabin.

  On 10/20/2016 at 12:00 AM, Tarheel1999 said:

It defaults to kerbal days and I don't think it's adjustable to earth days but I could be wrong on this point. 

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It's based on KSP settings

  On 10/20/2016 at 1:27 AM, Crabman said:

If you are having this much trouble with habitation/home time you can just tweak it at KSC view. Increase or decrease numbers and see what is the best configuration for you.

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This ^^

[Yuri kagarin56]

Also what happens when kerala run out now hab time? Do they die or become unusable or do their stats go down?

[DStaal]

  On 10/20/2016 at 4:21 PM, Yuri kagarin56 said:

Also what happens when kerala run out now hab time? Do they die or become unusable or do their stats go down?

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It's configurable - I believe by default they become tourists.  They can also start wrecking their ship, or go home (not sure how...) or just die.

[DoToH]

Simple question:

I can see all parts from USI-LS in the LifeSupport category in the VAB, but many of them (all, but the Nom-O-Matics) are also in the Utilities category.  Is that intended? I can provide screenshots, if needed.

[AVaughan]

Hi Roverdude.

I'm currently playing 1.2 with the latest USI core and USI LS from ckan, but without USI colonisation.

After having some kerbals prematurally turn into tourists on the way back from a a Minmus mission due to running out of Hab time, I reloaded that ship back in VAB and rechecked the Hab time listed in the life support pop-up.  117 days.  Hit launch and opened the life support pop-up.  Hab time 12 days 3 hrs.  Home time 12 days 3 hrs.

 

Relevant parts :  Mk 1 Command Pod, Mk1 Crew Cabin, Mk 1-2 Command pod, Hitch-hiker Storage Container, 6x Nom-o-matic  5000 all configured as recyclers.  6 kerbal crew.

 

Thanks for your work on KSP.

[Merkov]

  On 10/21/2016 at 1:41 AM, AVaughan said:

Hi Roverdude.

I'm currently playing 1.2 with the latest USI core and USI LS from ckan, but without USI colonisation.

After having some kerbals prematurally turn into tourists on the way back from a a Minmus mission due to running out of Hab time, I reloaded that ship back in VAB and rechecked the Hab time listed in the life support pop-up.  117 days.  Hit launch and opened the life support pop-up.  Hab time 12 days 3 hrs.  Home time 12 days 3 hrs.

 

Relevant parts :  Mk 1 Command Pod, Mk1 Crew Cabin, Mk 1-2 Command pod, Hitch-hiker Storage Container, 6x Nom-o-matic  5000 all configured as recyclers.  6 kerbal crew.

 

Thanks for your work on KSP.

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Question: did you activate Habitation on the Hitchhiker? USI-LS 0.5.X now requires some hab parts (I believe the Hitchhiker is one of them) to have their habitation ability "activated" via the right-click menu. Using these parts as hab parts consumes EC, so you have the option of using them when you need hab time, or saving EC when you don't.

[AVaughan]

Ah.  No.  I didn't realise the hitchhiker model needed to be activated.  Doing that gets me back to 117 days.  So I guess everything works as intended.

Thanks for that Merkov.

[Merkov]

  On 10/21/2016 at 2:54 AM, AVaughan said:

Ah.  No.  I didn't realise the hitchhiker model needed to be activated.  Doing that gets me back to 117 days.  So I guess everything works as intended.

Thanks for that Merkov.

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It's a new thing. Requiring EC for extra hab time makes sense (my interpretation is that Kerbals requiring EC is supposed to reflect EC needed for vital things, like climate control, while EC required for hab parts is for creature comforts, like computers/tvs, or grow lights for plants, etc.) but giving the option to save EC by shutting down extra hab stuff is also nice.

Also, be aware that this activation also applies to the Nom O Matics when configured as hab bonus modules, too. (I mean, technically Nom O Matics have to be activated no matter what configuration they are in, but we're talking about habitation here.)

[Boots]

I had a problem with a month-long mission to Minmus. The ship had three kerbals and an MPL operating as life support. The countdown time showed 23 days. When I skipped ahead 15 days I came back to expired kerbals. After a bit of experimenting with F9 and F5 I found despite the 23-day counter, my kerbals really only had 16 days left, including the 15 day grace period.

I think what was happening was that the calculation included the 50% reduction from the MPL recyler on the 15-day grace period, but once supplies ran out and the 50% reduction no longer made sense (becauuse 50% of 0 is 0), it recalculated it.

Is this a known problem? Do you need logs/gamedata/Github etc?

[Tarheel1999]

@Boots how many supplies did you have when the timer showed 23 days?  This may have changed but it used to be that the timer only counted supplies remaining and you could count on an extra 15 days once supplies ran out.

[m4ti140]

I think I found a little oversight: The viewing cupola has no exit hatch, but it can still be used by the contract generator in "rescue kerbal" missions. As a result my first crew recovery mission in 1.2 was impossible to finish, as the crew to be rescued was stuck inside their ship.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I thought of a wacky idea, probably best as a side addon though- a big unit, 1.5-2X the hab length, that serves as an R&R module with great Hab values, the only caveat being it must have a signal to KSP for streamed entertainment and communications with loved ones, and it is a real power guzzler. The hab value could be dynamic based based on signal strength/connectivity.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Waxing_Kibbous

[Korfio]

Hi guys, I need your help figuring out a problem. I have a station with 6 kerbals and a nom-o-matic 25000-I and the supplies are dwindling, even though it claims to be at 100% production capacity.

In https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/wiki/Quick-Start:-Supplies it says that Nom-O-Matic 25000/-I produce 110.16 supplies per day. It also claims kerbals use 16.2 supplies per Kerbal-day. So, it should theoretically support ~7 kerbals. I noticed that 110.6/Kday = 18,43/Khour but in my game it says "supplies: 4,75/hr" for the NOM25K. I looked in the part file for it and it says:

name = USILS_Greenhouse_250
OUTPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = Supplies
            Ratio = 0.00132000
            DumpExcess = False
        }

So that's 0,00132/sec = 4,752/hr. Is this part definition correct?

 

[Morashtak]

Noticed that the Community Tech Tree config file (CTT.cfg) was not working for the two parts listed in it so roughed one up. Wanted to check to see if these would be the intended nodes and/or the Nom-O-Matics should all move up one node.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

@PART[USILS_Greenhouse_Sm]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = basicScience
}
@PART[Fert_Tank_125]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = basicScience
}
@PART[USILS_Recycler]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = recycling
}
@PART[USILS_Greenhouse_250]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = recycling
}
@PART[Fert_Tank_250]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = recycling
}
@PART[LS_Tank_250]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = recycling
}
@PART[USILS_Greenhouse_Lg]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = hydroponics
}
@PART[Fert_Tank_375]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = hydroponics
}
@PART[LS_Tank_375]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = hydroponics
}
@PART[USILS_SmCupola]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = spaceExploration
}
@PART[USILS_ViewingCupola]:NEEDS[CommunityTechTree]
{
    @TechRequired = spaceExploration
}

 

 

[Korfio]

  On 10/22/2016 at 1:41 AM, Morashtak said:

Noticed that the Community Tech Tree config file (CTT.cfg) was not working for the two parts listed in it so roughed one up. Wanted to check to see if these would be the intended nodes and/or the Nom-O-Matics should all move up one node.

 

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Check out github, there's a more recent CTT.cfg in a pull request.

[ExplorerKlatt]

  On 10/22/2016 at 12:55 AM, Korfio said:

Hi guys, I need your help figuring out a problem. I have a station with 6 kerbals and a nom-o-matic 25000-I and the supplies are dwindling, even though it claims to be at 100% production capacity.

In https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/wiki/Quick-Start:-Supplies it says that Nom-O-Matic 25000/-I produce 110.16 supplies per day. It also claims kerbals use 16.2 supplies per Kerbal-day. So, it should theoretically support ~7 kerbals. I noticed that 110.6/Kday = 18,43/Khour but in my game it says "supplies: 4,75/hr" for the NOM25K. I looked in the part file for it and it says:

name = USILS_Greenhouse_250
OUTPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = Supplies
            Ratio = 0.00132000
            DumpExcess = False
        }

So that's 0,00132/sec = 4,752/hr. Is this part definition correct?

 

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Yes it is correct. The wiki is out of date since the newest version. All of Roverdude's mods underwent a rebalance for KSP 1.2

[stub]

  On 10/21/2016 at 7:24 PM, m4ti140 said:

I think I found a little oversight: The viewing cupola has no exit hatch, but it can still be used by the contract generator in "rescue kerbal" missions. As a result my first crew recovery mission in 1.2 was impossible to finish, as the crew to be rescued was stuck inside their ship.

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You need this plugin. The problem isn't specific to the USI. Alas, it isn't in CKAN last I saw. It really should be in core, as I think the problem can occur even with just stock parts (some of the aircraft crew compartments). 

 

[Korfio]

  On 10/22/2016 at 2:26 AM, ExplorerKlatt said:

Yes it is correct. The wiki is out of date since the newest version. All of Roverdude's mods underwent a rebalance for KSP 1.2

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Hmm OK but a 2.5m agroponics module being able to support only one kerbal seems a little off. My station has 6 kerbals and a science lab and still the nom25K isn't enough. In addition, the smaller nom-o-matic is now effectively useless (0.48 supplies/hr = 2,88supplies/day!) and I see no larger version. So agroponics seems to me to be not worth the EC/s at all.

[Tarheel1999]

Kerbals consume 10.8 units of supplies per day. If the numbers you provide are correct that unit provides 26 supplies per day. If you are also using a 50% recycler that should be enough for 4-5 kerbals. 

[Korfio]

  On 10/22/2016 at 10:42 AM, Tarheel1999 said:

Kerbals consume 10.8 units of supplies per day. If the numbers you provide are correct that unit provides 26 supplies per day. If you are also using a 50% recycler that should be enough for 4-5 kerbals. 

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For 4, yes. For 5, no since the sci lab only recycles for 4 kerbals.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2016 by Korfio
nothing to see here

[Norcalplanner]

  On 10/22/2016 at 11:26 AM, Korfio said:

For 4, yes. For 5, no since the sci lab only recycles for 4 kerbals.

 

 

 

 

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I found that adding two of the NoM 25000s radially works really well.  Have one run in agroponics mode, and the other run in recycler mode.  Although the recycler mode uses a lot of power (34 EC/s iirc) it recycles at 77%, meaning that your Kerbals go through less than half the food compared to using the MPL recycler (which admittedly is much cheaper in EC use).  If you're looking to do more than four Kerbals, however, you'll probably need a total of 4 of the radially attached NoM 25000s, with two set at each function. Going to use a heck of a lot of power when transiting the dark side of a planet, though.

[RoverDude]

  On 10/20/2016 at 7:34 PM, DoToH said:

Simple question:

I can see all parts from USI-LS in the LifeSupport category in the VAB, but many of them (all, but the Nom-O-Matics) are also in the Utilities category.  Is that intended? I can provide screenshots, if needed.

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Nope, will take a peek.

  On 10/21/2016 at 6:47 AM, Boots said:

I had a problem with a month-long mission to Minmus. The ship had three kerbals and an MPL operating as life support. The countdown time showed 23 days. When I skipped ahead 15 days I came back to expired kerbals. After a bit of experimenting with F9 and F5 I found despite the 23-day counter, my kerbals really only had 16 days left, including the 15 day grace period.

I think what was happening was that the calculation included the 50% reduction from the MPL recyler on the 15-day grace period, but once supplies ran out and the 50% reduction no longer made sense (becauuse 50% of 0 is 0), it recalculated it.

Is this a known problem? Do you need logs/gamedata/Github etc?

Expand  

You turned on the MPL recycle function correct?

  On 10/21/2016 at 7:24 PM, m4ti140 said:

I think I found a little oversight: The viewing cupola has no exit hatch, but it can still be used by the contract generator in "rescue kerbal" missions. As a result my first crew recovery mission in 1.2 was impossible to finish, as the crew to be rescued was stuck inside their ship.

Expand  

No hatch, grab it with a claw, etc. - as noted there are mods to help black-list these.

  On 10/22/2016 at 12:55 AM, Korfio said:

Hi guys, I need your help figuring out a problem. I have a station with 6 kerbals and a nom-o-matic 25000-I and the supplies are dwindling, even though it claims to be at 100% production capacity.

In https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/wiki/Quick-Start:-Supplies it says that Nom-O-Matic 25000/-I produce 110.16 supplies per day. It also claims kerbals use 16.2 supplies per Kerbal-day. So, it should theoretically support ~7 kerbals. I noticed that 110.6/Kday = 18,43/Khour but in my game it says "supplies: 4,75/hr" for the NOM25K. I looked in the part file for it and it says:

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As noted, Wiki is out of date.  

  On 10/22/2016 at 9:21 AM, Korfio said:

Hmm OK but a 2.5m agroponics module being able to support only one kerbal seems a little off. My station has 6 kerbals and a science lab and still the nom25K isn't enough. In addition, the smaller nom-o-matic is now effectively useless (0.48 supplies/hr = 2,88supplies/day!) and I see no larger version. So agroponics seems to me to be not worth the EC/s at all.

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I would suggest grabbing a better recycler for a crew that large.  The sci lab recycler loses a lot of efficacy because most of it's space is devoted to science, not recycling.  Note that all of the LS modules can have their roles changed.

[RoverDude]

Side note.  There's a pretty hefty mass disparity between a recycler and a greenhouse for comparable volume (i.e. greenhouses weigh a lot less since they are mostly empty space, vs. equipment).  As a result, I'll be moving the current modules to legacy (to avoid breaking saves), and update with dedicated greenhouse vs hab parts to address this.  I also have a smaller model that I had not released yet to stand in as a recycler.