[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[vossiewulf]

1 hour ago, Spagoose said:

Have you activated all the habitation modules manually? It should tell you how much actualy hab time your ship can give at the top of the life support window, but you can only see how it is calculated in the VAB.

I've gone through every module several times to be sure I have hab on everywhere, at least where it can be turned on, the Wild Blue habss don't have it but they were in the VAB design too sso that should have been accounted for. 

1 hour ago, Friznit said:

Also grab MKS explorer if you want to see the underlying calcs

I'm not seeing something called MKS explorer, can you point me to where that is?

[Friznit]

1 hour ago, vossiewulf said:

I've gone through every module several times to be sure I have hab on everywhere, at least where it can be turned on, the Wild Blue habss don't have it but they were in the VAB design too sso that should have been accounted for. 

I'm not seeing something called MKS explorer, can you point me to where that is?

Sorry, I meant Explainer...

 

[Wyzard]

8 hours ago, Spagoose said:

It has been like this for ages. Infact it was reported here: https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/USI-LS/issues/199 but was never actually fixed.

To be fair, what I suggested there would be a significant mechanics change, not just a small bugfix.  Realistically, I don't really expect that to happen in a mature mod like USI-LS.  (Maybe some other, younger mod could use the idea, though.)

[Spagoose]

1 hour ago, Wyzard said:

To be fair, what I suggested there would be a significant mechanics change, not just a small bugfix.  Realistically, I don't really expect that to happen in a mature mod like USI-LS.  (Maybe some other, younger mod could use the idea, though.)

That's true but there are some other significant issues that stem from this beyond what I posted as well which I'm surprised are not mentioned more.

 

For instance as home time decreases, you can effectively dump excess habitation modules so that hab time stays in line with remaining home time. Likewise you can just put a load of hab time on the ship and dump it on the launch pad, you effectively have that home time for the whole trip as long as you EVA.

 

I have been thinking about how the system could be fixed and one idea was to have each kerbal have a habitation percentage that drops from 100% to 0%. Hab modules would decrease the rate of decline rather than just adding n days. That way hab time isn't a static amount that can be reset via EVA and if you dropped hab modules or tried stocking up home time, it would have no effect as your actual hab time would depend on how much you actually have on your ship.

You also wouldn't need to differentiate hab and home time any more which would reduce confusion. And finally the only way to increase hab percentage would be to use habitats like it currently is.

This method would probably require the least amount of rework compared to other fixes, you just need to swap the timer attached to kerbals with a percentage (which in reality would still be a timer) and change it so that hab parts just act as a multiplier to the kerbals percentage/timer rather than adding time themselves. 

The only potential issue would be after a very long voyage, if a kerbal has very low hab time moves into a reentry capsule, the might end up with just a few minutes of time before striking. But this could be dealt with like supplies and electric charge with a few days grace period after its empty.

Unfortunately I doubt RoverDude has much time to do this himself and I am not in a position to take the time out of my day to sift through the code myself to do it.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Spagoose

[RoverDude]

Just to circle back, the design is as intended.  The canonical example would be a manned landing to Duna.  The main vessel would probably have a lot of hab (resulting in a large home hab value, being your upper limit).  But when you go into a lander or EVA, you have a much smaller timer, so while your overall timer may be measured in years, you can't kick someone to sleep in the rover for months at a time.  So while the EVA will reset your short term timer (this is to encourage more interaction), it will do nothing for your long term timer.  Happy to tinker with any weird edge cases, but conceptually I am pretty happy with where it is.

[Spagoose]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Just to circle back, the design is as intended.  The canonical example would be a manned landing to Duna.  The main vessel would probably have a lot of hab (resulting in a large home hab value, being your upper limit).  But when you go into a lander or EVA, you have a much smaller timer, so while your overall timer may be measured in years, you can't kick someone to sleep in the rover for months at a time.  So while the EVA will reset your short term timer (this is to encourage more interaction), it will do nothing for your long term timer.  Happy to tinker with any weird edge cases, but conceptually I am pretty happy with where it is.

 

The main issue is that at the moment, it is definitely 100% possible to kick a kerbal into a rover for months at a time providing there are 2 or more kerbals in it.

 

You can easily go to any planet in a ship with just a 2 seater command pod and no other hab modules if you wanted to, all you would need to do is get a high home timer from a station in kerbin orbit before you started the voyage. After that every so often one kerbal quickly does a 1 second EVA out and back into the exact same ship to reset the other kerbals hab timer. That kerbal then has a refreshed hab timer without ever leaving the ship. So effectively you can last for years by just EVAing each kerbal once every few days.

 

Effectively as it stands the hab timer is irrelevant on any ship/rover/etc with 2 or more kerbals on board.

 

I made the last post about a mechanic change but thinking about it now, the only fix really needed is that the hab timer isn't reset on a kerbal who hasn't moved into a new vessel.

 

I think this whole issue stems from the fact that the hab time on a vessel increases when a kerbal EVAs, any kerbals still inside the ship have their remaining hab time updated and reset along with the ship when in reality JUST the ship hab time should change.

 

The ditching habitation modules as the home timer runs out is also something that wouldn't happen in normal missions either, if anything it would liquid kerbals off and reduce their habitation even more, while it is beneficial currently to shed the mass and EC usage.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Spagoose

[RoverDude]

That is literally how it is designed to work :). You are rewarded for changing up the Kerbal situation, and as noted, you always have to start with something that gives you a decent home timer since that remains your upper limit.  And better make sure your transit vehicle has a decent have timer of it's own.

[Spagoose]

12 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

That is literally how it is designed to work :). You are rewarded for changing up the Kerbal situation, and as noted, you always have to start with something that gives you a decent home timer since that remains your upper limit.  And better make sure your transit vehicle has a decent have timer of it's own.

Fair enough, I always assumed that the idea was that you needed to take all your habitation requirements with you on your actual mission rather then just having a stay in a luxury space hotel beforehand. What is the actual benefit of taking habitation with you? All I can think of is that it reduces how often you need to EVA but otherwise kerbals are happy to be cooped up providing they get some fresh air every once in a while?

Thanks for answering btw, it's making a lot more sense now.

[RoverDude]

The reality is that most folks do not want to babysit and interact with their Kerbals that often.  And in the long haul, hab is a lot less critical than supplies.

[Spagoose]

1 minute ago, RoverDude said:

The reality is that most folks do not want to babysit and interact with their Kerbals that often.  And in the long haul, hab is a lot less critical than supplies.

Okay that makes sense, thanks for the help, that fixes my headcanon issues. I also didn't consider that it makes for a great reason to build habitat stations.

Cheers.

[Friznit]

They way I've always reconciled it is that your kerbs need a home base at either end of the journey but are reasonably content to be cooped up during transit.  This encourages building orbital transit stations, gateways and planetary bases at the destination if you intend to stay long term.  Also on very long trips, supplies are prohibitive enough that cryogenic freezing is often a requirement anyway.

[Wyzard]

8 hours ago, Spagoose said:

Unfortunately I doubt RoverDude has much time to do this himself and I am not in a position to take the time out of my day to sift through the code myself to do it.

I've thought about implementing my suggested mechanics change on a branch, as an experiment.  I might do that at some point.  Don't have time for it now, though.

[pirx8]

Just started career with this mod and i think its quite good.

Just a little thought.. Shoudlnt most capsules have at least 1 day of supplies by default? It would sound most logical to me.

And about electric charge.. i think lack of power should kill/make-into-tourist kerbal in few hours at most (no fans, co2 scrubbers) instead of two weeks.

Edited August 6, 2019 by pirx8

[Spagoose]

3 hours ago, pirx8 said:

Just started career with this mod and i think its quite good.

Just a little thought.. Shoudlnt most capsules have at least 1 day of supplies by default? It would sound most logical to me.

And about electric charge.. i think lack of power should kill/make-into-tourist kerbal in few hours at most (no fans, co2 scrubbers) instead of two weeks.

A modulemanager patch could easily add a day of resources to each command module. But considering there is a 15 day period you can go without supplies, you can get to the Mun without any supplies on board, and by the time you do actually need them, a days worth offers no benefit.

 

You can change the time before power outage affects kerbals in the life spport settings under EC Time in seconds. personally I have it at 7200, which is 2 hours, the same as TAC life support. As for food, 15 days is reasonable.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Spagoose

[Glyphe]

Hello there and thank you for this great mod !

Sorry if this was asked before but is there a way to change the scale of the UI for the LS information window? I play on a 4K TV with 4K resolution and cannot really make out the information displayed in the LS window since it is too small.

Cheers!

PS : Same question as above but for the Kolonization dashboard as well

[RoverDude]

9 hours ago, Glyphe said:

Hello there and thank you for this great mod !

Sorry if this was asked before but is there a way to change the scale of the UI for the LS information window? I play on a 4K TV with 4K resolution and cannot really make out the information displayed in the LS window since it is too small.

Cheers!

PS : Same question as above but for the Kolonization dashboard as well

hmmm not at this time, would likely be a code change (at which point I'd just tie to the scale slider used for the main GUI).

 

[AVaughan]

On 8/6/2019 at 3:57 AM, RoverDude said:

Happy to tinker with any weird edge cases, but conceptually I am pretty happy with where it is.

It's been a few years while since I played with USI life support, so my recollection of it's exact behaviour is slightly fuzzy, but I used to regularly make one "mistake", that turned my kerbals into unintended tourists.  (The first time it happened was a real what the heck moment). 

I tend to start building a new vessel with my Kerbin return capsule, then I turn that into a lander for for whatever body I am heading for, then add extra hab etc to the transfer stage.  So I would get to my destination, decouple the lander, start the deorbit burn, and suddenly all my kerbals would become tourists.  Easily worked around provided I remembered to make sure that the root part is on the transfer stage, and/or use a separately launched lander.  (I also started to always add a probe core to every lander as well, which means that I probably still have control even if they all become tourists).

[Glyphe]

6 hours ago, RoverDude said:

hmmm not at this time, would likely be a code change (at which point I'd just tie to the scale slider used for the main GUI).

 

Is that something you think could be implemented in the near future? Is there a process for requesting the implementation of a feature (other than asking for it on here) ?

Thanks

[vossiewulf]

Ok I am confused about home time. I understood it to be the highest hab time the Kerbal had ever seen. But I set up a rover with considerable hab time, put some guys in it, they say their home time is what I expect it to be (~2 years). I recover them, launch them on a different vessel with 20 days hab time per crew and now their home time says 20 days. Is home time the highest hab they've seen on their current flight, not all time?

I've decided to treat home time like a contract duration, and I want to be able to set their home time easily so Kerbals in Kerbin orbit will have one or two year contracts, and it goes up from there depending on how far you're going, with the goal being I should have to launch a crew rotation mission every couple months to pick up a crew someplace.

[RoverDude]

Yes, it gets reset each launch (or more accurately, it gets cleaned up if it sees the Kerbals are no longer in flight).  So as long as you do a layover in orbit, etc. at a very roomy vessel you will get a good home timer.  

[vossiewulf]

On 8/18/2019 at 3:49 AM, RoverDude said:

Yes, it gets reset each launch (or more accurately, it gets cleaned up if it sees the Kerbals are no longer in flight).  So as long as you do a layover in orbit, etc. at a very roomy vessel you will get a good home timer.  

Thanks. Sorry for delayed response, I missed your reply.

I'm still confused, however. I assumed the above was the case, and just went through a process of creating a rover with significant hab time to set the home timer of crew to a reasonably long value, a rover which could dock with a rocket on the pad to transfer crew so they are still on the same flight. However, when I switch to the rocket, all of them have a home time that matches the hab time of the rocket. The docs say home time should always be the longest hab time they've ever (and by ever I think you mean on one flight) experienced.

[RoverDude]

Yep because life support is reset when they are still on Kerbin - otherwise folks would just game the system.  Do the same with a vessel in orbit and you will be fine.

[vossiewulf]

15 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Yep because life support is reset when they are still on Kerbin - otherwise folks would just game the system.  Do the same with a vessel in orbit and you will be fine.

Thanks for quick reply, but sigh  Not the answer I wanted to hear. If I was gaming the system, it should dang well be a whole lot easier! I thought I'd found a way to change the system with a commensurately enormous effort.

 

That said, as admitted the conception I'm using does not match that actually behind this mod, so at that point I'm more or less trying to make a mod be a different one that I like better. If that doesn't work it's not the mod's fault.

I guess I will have to use a station, but I'm not really sure how to be able to set specific hab times for a large group of kerbals, I assume kerbals entering a station one by one will each get a different max time unless they're added and removed one at a time. And that doesn't address that I want to be able to set this group to two years and that group to four years and this one to 8. I'll have to build a station with docked hab segments and undock segments as necessary. Going to be a bunch more big launches.

[RoverDude]

Or just make sure your transit vessels aren't tin cans?

 

[vossiewulf]

11 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Or just make sure your transit vessels aren't tin cans?

 

I don't know how to build transit vehicles that set groups of 20 or 30 kerbals to a 5 year or greater home time. Best I have been able to do and still have something small enough to reasonably get where they're going is a science station that sets all 9 scientists needed to operate it to a home time of a little over two years. I need three to five times that long for anything outside Kerbin's SOI unless I want 90% of my launches to be nothing but endless crew rotations or resort to using med bays to "fix" kerbals.

That, to me, is gaming the system. It doesn't make any real sense that a space program would be driven by something as vague as home sickness or that this is somehow fixable in a medical facility. This is just my opinion, but if you need an override to your feature that is essentially a hack, it should suggest that the feature needs to be reconsidered.

No one will be sending anyone into space long term or going into space long term without a hard contractual agreement as to the duration of the mission. Only exception will be colonists, for whom the space journey will just be a transit to a new long-term home; they will have completely wrapped up affairs and packed and will be mentally prepared for not returning. Everyone else will have an expectation of returning and will be extremely unlikely to get on a rocket without knowing when that is and be sure the agreement has legal standing. And they won't accept a duration beyond what believe they can do, and whatever duration they agree to, they will mentally prepare themselves for it. 

Homesickness and anti-homesickness features would still be present, but they would change to things which either improve or degrade work output, engineers build and fix slower, scientists research slower, etc., so the homesickness value would still be critical and have large effects on the work output. And this aligns with reality, I'm sure we'll see nice facilities built which people really like and so they keep working at peak efficiency, and on the other end is like the (fantasy) MIR station of Armageddon. You shouldn't expect quality or a large quantity of work from people in a crap station/base.

But they wouldn't quit working, they have contracts. The only time they'd quit working (barring some major medical event) is at the end of their contract and again that aligns with what we can expect from reality.

So I'd like to see contract time be a parameter you set at recruitment time and have it affect the cost just like the existing params do. I really do think it would make the entire system more sensible and easier to work with for the players while being more realistic.

BTW I just mostly wanted to write this down and make sure I'd thought it through, I'm not starting a crusade to change the fundamental design of MKS. First, you and the people who have used it seem to like it, and I'm sure you know better than me that KSP 2 plays into decisions on major work even if you saw something you thought was great. 

So I'm just saying this once and will move on, maybe if the subject ever comes up for you again you'll remember it.