[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[Agustin]

1 hour ago, Agustin said:

You said in github that for the following version, the NullReferenceException infinite message was going to be fixed. Well it is not.

https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/issues/203

 

24 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Now it is

Yay! It is now fixed. Thank you!

[Sophistry]

Erm, are Orange Suits supposed to not need supplies to avoid going on strike still?

Edited January 16, 2017 by Sophistry

[DStaal]

31 minutes ago, Sophistry said:

Erm, are Orange Suits supposed to not need supplies to avoid going on strike still?

Nope: Orange Suits are not special in any way under the defaults at the moment.  (This can be changed, but the default is that they aren't.)

[WuphonsReach]

A few ruminations:

The RT-5000 2.5m Recycler uses 18.5 EC/s for 3 kerbals (but gives 79%).  The smaller unit does 1 kerbal at 60% but only uses 0.5 EC/s.  One of the 'Duna' parts has a recycler for four kerbals (also at 50 or 60%) and has a very low EC value of 1.0 EC/s.

So, either the smaller recyclers need to use more power and/or the big 2.5m recycler needs to service more kerbals (six? eight? my part count would love you long time), or cut its power draw by a factor of 3x-4x.

On the concept of some kerbals (scouts? pilots?) being immune to hab-timers, I'm against outright immunity.  But I think it might be interesting if those kerbal types had increased resistance (akin to G-force resistance) where they can deal with cramped quarters for longer, possibly increasing with XP?  So maybe a 1-star special-type kerbal would have 3x longer hab-timers, while a 5-star might have 10x-40x longer hab-timers.

[Merkov]

8 minutes ago, WuphonsReach said:

A few ruminations:

The RT-5000 2.5m Recycler uses 18.5 EC/s for 3 kerbals (but gives 79%).  The smaller unit does 1 kerbal at 60% but only uses 0.5 EC/s.  One of the 'Duna' parts has a recycler for four kerbals (also at 50 or 60%) and has a very low EC value of 1.0 EC/s.

So, either the smaller recyclers need to use more power and/or the big 2.5m recycler needs to service more kerbals (six? eight? my part count would love you long time), or cut its power draw by a factor of 3x-4x.

I think part of the reason that the RT-5000 uses so much EC is because any part that reduces supply consumption by such high amounts (in this case, 79%) is extremely powerful. The part with the highest recycling percentage sets the cap for all other parts if they are stacked. So, if you have one RT-5000, you can provide 79% recycling for as many kerbals as you want to have on a vessel as long as you spam cheaper, less efficient recyclers. Once you have one RT-5000, for every 2 kerbals above the 3 supported by the recycler itself, you only need 3 RT-500s to get them to the same 79%. So the EC investment for the first 3 kerbals is high (18.5 EC/s) but every 2 kerbals after that only require 1.5 EC/s.

On a slightly related topic, the 79% recycler rate is pretty high. It's the highest in base USI-LS, and if I am remembering correctly, the only parts in MKS with higher recycler values are the Tundra Kerbitats which use way more EC for slightly higher values (81% and 83%, I believe) or way more EC AND Water to get even higher values (~93% I think?) All in all, I think the RT-5000 has its uses, you just need to figure out if it is worth the investment in EC production for the extra recycling efficiency. The more kerbals you have, the more attractive it starts to look.

[jd284]

The RT-5000 is also the most massive per kerbal supported of any USI recycling part including the kerbitats. (The only exception being the Orca all-in-one command module.)

Still, it has its place due to the high recycling percentage, but generally only when I plan ships with 2 or 3 crew. For 4+ crew the Kerbitat is better and for much larger crews the Orca.

[Merkov]

2 minutes ago, jd284 said:

The RT-5000 is also the most massive per kerbal supported of any USI recycling part including the kerbitats. (The only exception being the Orca all-in-one command module.)

Still, it has its place due to the high recycling percentage, but generally only when I plan ships with 2 or 3 crew. For 4+ crew the Kerbitat is better and for much larger crews the Orca.

I think the RT-5000 has uses with larger crews. Its EC usage is way lower than the kerbitats, and its available earlier in the tech tree than the kerbitats. I find my first space stations around Kerbin and her moons usually have an RT-5000 on board.

I agree, though, that once I have access to larger MKS reactors and Tundra parts, my stations start getting retrofitted pretty quickly with kerbitats.

[TinoR]

Last week I posted about a bug with recyclers:

Quote

On 10/1/2017 at 5:37 AM, TinoR said:

First of all I'd like to thank you, RoverDude, for this and other amazing mods.

Not sure if I found a bug or I'm doing something wrong: It seems that during catch up recyclers aren't taken into account.

Basically I put 3 kerbals, 500 supplies and 3 recyclers into orbit, when I start the recyclers the supplies countdown increases to 53 days, as expected.

Then I time warp in the tracking station for 5 days: 48 days of supplies left.

But when I get back to the vessel, there are only 41 days of supplies left and 162 supplies were consumed, the exact amount for 3 kerbals during 5 days and no recyclers working.

 

Can anyone confirm if it's really a bug? If so, should I open an issue on github?

[RoverDude]

The best bet is to include the documentation above along with a save file (that uses only stock and USI parts) and put it on GitHub and I can chase it down

[JediRangerkendor]

This desperately needs a guide for the settings menu.

[TheRagingIrishman]

Just now, JediRangerkendor said:

This desperately needs a guide for the settings menu.

What parts of it are you confused about? While there are a lot of things in the menu, it makes sense (to me at least).

[JediRangerkendor]

Just now, TheRagingIrishman said:

What parts of it are you confused about? While there are a lot of things in the menu, it makes sense (to me at least).

Well i am assuming that Supply Effect, EC Effect, and EVA Effect are what happens when those particular things run out.

I had wanted to test it out so I chucked a kerbal into space and fast forwarded an entire day. Little dude is still out there and I was wondering if i did something wrong. 

[dboi88]

3 minutes ago, JediRangerkendor said:

This desperately needs a guide for the settings menu.

 

2 minutes ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

What parts of it are you confused about? While there are a lot of things in the menu, it makes sense (to me at least).

If some can put one together i'll make a KSPedia entry with some of the life support specific info for USI-LS

[TheRagingIrishman]

2 minutes ago, JediRangerkendor said:

Well i am assuming that Supply Effect, EC Effect, and EVA Effect are what happens when those particular things run out.

I had wanted to test it out so I chucked a kerbal into space and fast forwarded an entire day. Little dude is still out there and I was wondering if i did something wrong. 

No you were right about those assumptions. Are you focused on the kerbal or in the sph? What does the USI-LS window say (not the settings one but the one that shows how much time they have left)?

[goldenpsp]

5 minutes ago, JediRangerkendor said:

This desperately needs a guide for the settings menu.

If only there was a wiki...

 

Granted I don't think it shows the settings menu, but all the settings are explained.

[JediRangerkendor]

I think i might know what is going on. That 15 day grace period, does it apply to EVA Kerbals too? 

[SilentWindOfDoom]

I have an odd issue with the hab and home time of a particular ship resetting when i focus on it. When it is unloaded the timers count down as expected, but when focused, it resets to maximum.

My only other ship, a three man space station counts down properly and does not reset. My apologies if this is a RTFM/T situation, but i don't know what is causing this.

I have no USI/MKS modules on this ship other than 3 boxes of supplies.

A separate issue is that while the Life Support Status for the previously mentioned station read 8 days remaining, moments after taking the screenshot now reads "expired". Is there anything I can do to track this issue down?

 

Suddenly expired!:

Edited January 19, 2017 by SilentWindOfDoom

[Jebs_SY]

1 hour ago, SilentWindOfDoom said:

A separate issue is that while the Life Support Status for the previously mentioned station read 8 days remaining, moments after taking the screenshot now reads "expired". Is there anything I can do to track this issue down?

This is a thing I have seen multiple times. The "virtual" 15 days grace period supplies disappear and supplies just goes "expired", however, the crew continues to work.

[Jebs_SY]

I still get some constantly repeating argument exceptions when opening the USI-LS window. However, later in the mission, this doesn't happen. The installation is highly modded. Does anyone has similar problems? The window is working, however flickering in the error situation.

 [EXC 04:04:05.652] ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Argument is out of range.
Parameter name: index
	System.Collections.Generic.List`1[ProtoCrewMember].get_Item (Int32 index)
	LifeSupport.LifeSupportMonitor.CheckEVAKerbals ()
	LifeSupport.LifeSupportMonitor.GenerateWindow ()
	LifeSupport.LifeSupportMonitor.OnWindow (Int32 windowId)
	UnityEngine.GUILayout+LayoutedWindow.DoWindow (Int32 windowID)
	UnityEngine.GUI.CallWindowDelegate (UnityEngine.WindowFunction func, Int32 id, UnityEngine.GUISkin _skin, Int32 forceRect, Single width, Single height, UnityEngine.GUIStyle style)
[EXC 04:04:05.656] ArgumentException: Getting control 0's position in a group with only 0 controls when doing Repaint
Aborting
	UnityEngine.GUILayoutGroup.GetNext ()
	UnityEngine.GUILayoutUtility.BeginLayoutGroup (UnityEngine.GUIStyle style, UnityEngine.GUILayoutOption[] options, System.Type layoutType)
	UnityEngine.GUILayout.BeginVertical (UnityEngine.GUIContent content, UnityEngine.GUIStyle style, UnityEngine.GUILayoutOption[] options)
	UnityEngine.GUILayout.BeginVertical (UnityEngine.GUILayoutOption[] options)
	LifeSupport.LifeSupportMonitor.GenerateWindow ()
	LifeSupport.LifeSupportMonitor.OnWindow (Int32 windowId)
	UnityEngine.GUILayout+LayoutedWindow.DoWindow (Int32 windowID)
	UnityEngine.GUI.CallWindowDelegate (UnityEngine.WindowFunction func, Int32 id, UnityEngine.GUISkin _skin, Int32 forceRect, Single width, Single height, UnityEngine.GUIStyle style)

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Jebs_SY

[SilentWindOfDoom]

9 hours ago, Jebs_SY said:

This is a thing I have seen multiple times. The "virtual" 15 days grace period supplies disappear and supplies just goes "expired", however, the crew continues to work.

Thanks for the reply. I noticed they could still be commanded, so that's cool. I just wonder if the grace period is counting down in the background somewhere or if they're now able to stay without supplies forever. I am worried this might happen on a far away colony or interplanetary cruise, which would sort of ruin everything.

[rottielover]

So I've been reading up on Hab and Home and I guess I'm still missing something in the concepts.  Back on page 92 or 93 RoverDude said this:

Quote

Consider the case of a Duna base with 10 years of hab, a transit vessel with 2 years of hab, and a rover on the surface of Duna with 15 days of hab.

The crew embarks from Kerbin in the transit vessel.  Their Hab timer is 2 years, and their Home timer is 2 years.

Two years in, they land at the base and move into the base.  Their Hab timer is now 10 years, and their Home timer is now 8 years (10 - 2).

They take a jaunt in the Rover.  Their hab timer drops to 15 days, their home timer stays at 8 years.  i.e. they can't live inside that rover...

They go back to the base and stay for five years.  Their hab timer is now 5 (10 - 5), and their home timer is 3 (8 - 5).

They have now been away from Kerbin for seven years.  The transit vessel returns, and they board it for the return trip home.

Once they board the transit vessel, their hab timer resets to 2, and their home timer remains at 3.  Provided they can get to Kerbin in the 2 year window, they are good to go.

 

So the timers make sense to me, but what I don't still understand in reading 100 pages is HOW do I build bases / ships that alter those numbers??  IE, How would I build said transit vessel above and know that I'm going to get 2 years of Hab and Home out of it?

[DStaal]

5 minutes ago, rottielover said:

So I've been reading up on Hab and Home and I guess I'm still missing something in the concepts.  Back on page 92 or 93 RoverDude said this:

 

So the timers make sense to me, but what I don't still understand in reading 100 pages is HOW do I build bases / ships that alter those numbers??  IE, How would I build said transit vessel above and know that I'm going to get 2 years of Hab and Home out of it?

Basically: Give them room.

There's lots of good info on this in the KSPedia entry (I believe), but I'll point you to the wiki page for the various habitation-specific parts in MKS:

https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/Functions%3A-Habitation

[dboi88]

15 hours ago, rottielover said:

So I've been reading up on Hab and Home and I guess I'm still missing something in the concepts.  Back on page 92 or 93 RoverDude said this:

 

So the timers make sense to me, but what I don't still understand in reading 100 pages is HOW do I build bases / ships that alter those numbers??  IE, How would I build said transit vessel above and know that I'm going to get 2 years of Hab and Home out of it?

I assume you are suing the life support window in the VAB?

Using this button 

[Jebs_SY]

I am using USI-LS 0.5.19 and have the problem that it does not calculates the recyclers correct, when the ship is in the background.

Everything works well, when the ship is in the foreground. I made a quick video to show. to much supplies get used, when the ship is in the background (with enabled recyclers).

One more thing I've noticed AFTER the video, the strange habitation calculation. All 3 Kerbals are in the Command pod, the ship has a hitchhiker storage container and three 1 person recyclers and 1500 supplies.

So things to notice in this video:
-the supply usage  of ~48/day instead of the announced ~20/day when the ship is in background
-the different habitation for all 3 kerbals (vals hab and hs is frozen in the first fast forward run)
-the EC time left "jump" while the ship was in background

*help* Anyone has an idea whats wrong? Exception monitoring is on, but there were no exceptions here, no red lines top right.

EDIT: Just recognized, that my mic got muted as I was calculating, unfortunately. I was pointing out, that the ship in the background used ~48 supplies / day, which is the same was when the recyclers are shut off. However, they were online and had power. Just the ship was in the background.

@RoverDude   @all

 

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Jebs_SY

[rottielover]

22 hours ago, DStaal said:

Basically: Give them room.

There's lots of good info on this in the KSPedia entry (I believe), but I'll point you to the wiki page for the various habitation-specific parts in MKS:

https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/Functions%3A-Habitation

Thank you the wiki is what I needed.   Here I was thinking that there was going to be no way to establish perm. resident colonists, but sounds like I just need the right parts....

Leads me into a suggestion though,  maybe the colonist kerbals (those you can hire with that rating), as I understand it right now they simply raise all the colony stats.  Maybe they could be "buffed" a bit on the hab home times ?   IE if I'm a kerbal colonist recruited, I'm probably not looking to make a return to kerbin??   Not sure, it's a thought.