M700 Survey Scanner is quite overpowered

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

The mere existence of time warp flat out disproves this.

No it does not disprove it.

Please read my whole post above. It isnt that long...

Try to do a real time Mission to the Mun and spend 8 hours of fun filled with nothing

Scansat does the whole mechanic perfectly.

[gmiddlemass]

Waiting 30 seconds for the scan to timewarp doesn't add anything to gameplay, it just makes you stare at the screen for a long time.

But it could add something to the gameplay... the need to ensure that your sat/probe has uninterrupted power over the period it is scanning be it through solar panels, batteries RTG's or whatever. If the scanner loses power for a short period then it should fail or at least not give you a complete scan of the target surely?

That could add another, admittedly small, element to the design of the craft and to the gameplay. If your scan fails or is incomplete you may need to launch another probe/sat to complete the mission.

[Tankman101]

But it could add something to the gameplay... the need to ensure that your sat/probe has uninterrupted power over the period it is scanning be it through solar panels, batteries RTG's or whatever. If the scanner loses power for a short period then it should fail or at least not give you a complete scan of the target surely?

That could add another, admittedly small, element to the design of the craft and to the gameplay. If your scan fails or is incomplete you may need to launch another probe/sat to complete the mission.

So I just slap on tons of panels and some inline batteries.

Congrats, you added literally 5 seconds of gameplay.

[Wheffle]

The mere existence of time warp flat out disproves this.

Nah, time warp doesn't cheapen time. Lack of life support or maintenance costs do.

But time is still important in KSP the way I see it, with transfer windows and such being a thing. If you play with many simultaneous missions time becomes even more important (I luv me some kerbal alarm clock...)

So I just slap on tons of panels and some inline batteries.

Congrats, you added literally 5 seconds of gameplay.

With that same logic I suppose they should just do away with electric charge altogether.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Wheffle

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

So I just slap on tons of panels and some inline batteries.

Congrats, you added literally 5 seconds of gameplay.

Wrong, you spend another 10 minutes figuring out if your Orbit will be occlude the probe by the planet while the planet Orbits around the sun.

You will also have to see if your scanner range is broad enough, depending on your altitude and inclination to cover the Poles, otherwise you wont get all surface covered.

You would know all this stuff, if you had ever tried it. No Offense

But time is still important in KSP the way I see it, with transfer windows and such being a thing. If you play with many simultaneous missions time becomes even more important (I luv me some kerbal alarm clock...)

THIS!

Edited May 28, 2015 by MalfunctionM1Ke

[Tankman101]

Wrong, you spend another 10 minutes figuring out if your Orbit will be occlude the probe by the planet while the planet Orbits around the sun.

You will also have to see if your scanner range is broad enough, depending on your altitude and inclination to cover the Poles, otherwise you wont get all surface covered.

You would know all this stuff, if you had ever tried it. No Offense

As a person that has used SCANSat in .90 extensively, I do know.

Adding batteries and solars takes 5 seconds.

Making sure your polar orbit has sun access at all times takes as much time as making an orbit, with the question "Is the planet occluding it" literally taking a second.

The rest is waiting, and waiting that can be time-warped through for 30 seconds.

If you take 10 minutes to see if the sun will shine on your probe I have to ask if you are blind.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

As a person that has used SCANSat in .90 extensively, I do know.

Adding batteries and solars takes 5 seconds.

Making sure your polar orbit has sun access at all times takes as much time as making an orbit, with the question "Is the planet occluding it" literally taking a second.

The rest is waiting, and waiting that can be time-warped through for 30 seconds.

If you take 10 minutes to see if the sun will shine on your probe I have to ask if you are blind.

Of course I am blind, thank you for offending me

So you learned all the stuff and now that you know it, you dont want it anymore...?

That makes little sense to me.

Edit:

My Point is that i would like to see all this Facts taught by the game to new Players.

-if you Launch polar at noon you will end up in the dark.

-if your Orbit is not high enough, you will cover less ground on one orbit

-scanning takes time while the planet rotates below you and tidally locked Planets and Moons take longer to do so.

You miss out on all that if you make it instant-scanning.

Edited May 28, 2015 by MalfunctionM1Ke

[Tankman101]

So you learned all the stuff and now that you know it, you dont want it anymore...?

That makes little sense to me.

I only used SCANSat because it was the only system I could find for seeing resource deposits on a planet. Now that the stock system is in place, I don't want anything to do with SCANSat anymore.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I only used SCANSat because it was the only system I could find for seeing resource deposits on a planet. Now that the stock system is in place, I don't want anything to do with SCANSat anymore.

This is a fair point which I understand and respect.

Lets agree, that Squad should make that an Option in the Difficulty-Menu if they decide to enhance the orbital scanning-mechanic.

[Tankman101]

More options never hurt anything.

[katateochi]

I just don't get the arguments about time. It takes time to drill and convert, so why shouldn't it take time to scan? And watching a scan in progress is more interesting than watching drilling and converting.

Ok you don't have to watch mining take place, you can go off and do other stuff while it happens in the background....so why can't we scan in the background? That just seems inconsistent.

But you may not have anything else going on, or you need the fuel for the next thing you have planned, so you will end up focused on the drilling craft, timewarping until it's done. So why is timewarping until a scan is done any different? When you've watched one mining rig at work, there's nothing new and different about watching any other one. At least with scanning you get to see the whole planet and spot possibly interesting places to land, when drilling you're stuck watching the same, not particularly interesting bit of terrain.

With Kethane and SCANsat there was a sense of accomplishment for getting the planets mapped and both made you stop and think about what was an effective orbit to scan from. It's not just about plonking something in a polar orbit, different altitudes effect how efficient the scan is depending on the rotation of the planet. Or if you just wanted to scan the equatorial region then you could do that and you could see (and therefore learn) about how different inclinations translate to different patterns on a 2D map.

I'm disappointed with the way scanning has been implemented. KSP is about discovery, exploration, figuring things out for yourself and being challenged. This lacks all of that, you don't have to think about what might be a good orbit to put your scanner on, you just get it handed to you. It also means everyone's approach to scanning is exactly the same, there is no scope for doing things differently (ie having a network of scanners on different orbits), there is no scope for doing it wrong and then learning why your first approach was wrong.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

-snip-

I think they will add the scanning over time later on.

Maybe they just ddidnt want to implement another placeholder because they were rushing to a release, just as they did with the thermal overlays.

I heard/read it somewhere but it was said, that it will be followed by a better Feature/Readout.

[davidpsummers]

I suspect people use time differently. When I send a probe to Jool, I don't just time warp until it gets there. After all, I don't want my space program to be going on for 100 years. I do other things until it gets there.

I'm sure some don't care about this and just warp ahead.

[Tankman101]

I think they will add the scanning over time later on.

Maybe they just ddidnt want to implement another placeholder because they were rushing to a release, just as they did with the thermal overlays.

I heard/read it somewhere but it was said, that it will be followed by a better Feature/Readout.

Pretty sure I recall RoverDude said he intentionally made it instant.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Pretty sure I recall RoverDude said he intentionally made it instant.

Right. I think we have to see how this plays out.

I quess Squad got their hands full with Unity5 right now.

[gogozerg]

I really would prefer progressive background scanning. Because it's nice to feel like you're doing a real resource scanning, and see how your orbit is projected onto the rotating planet.

It feels like they implemented the system this way because it's simple and cheap.

I wish I could ditch it and use a ScanSat extension instead. Maybe one day, for now both systems are too different.

Scanning takes time and resources (fuel cell/solar energy availabilty at a given time and position) just as other operations in this game.

Edited May 28, 2015 by gogozerg

[Geschosskopf]

I think having to wait around for 10 minutes for your satellite to complete a planetary scan as utterly retarded.

A better system would be to have the scanner scan the planet in the background while you're off at the launch site doing other productive things like launching other rockets rather than sitting around like a dunce.

SCANsat does exactly this. In the SCANsat settings menu, there's the option to disable instant scanning. So then the ore scanner works like the other SCANsat instruments, painting a more complete picture each orbit, and it runs in the background while you do something else while you wait on it, even at high warp.

The thing is, though, SCANsat gives you fully detailed knowledge of ore per biome from orbit, so there's no need for the ground scanner or NBS. So pick your poison:

• Stock: Use the "instant" orbital scanner to point you to locations where you're probably going to find examples of the biomes with the highest ore values for that planet. Then go to those areas with the ground scanner and/or NBS to find out which biomes have what ore values. Then, knowing that ore level is constant throughout each biome, pick a convenient place in that biome to set up your mine. The mine doesn't have to be where you've been before, just as long it's in the correct biome.
  
• SCANsat: Use the "incremental" orbital scan to get fully knowledge of ore distribution over the entire planetary surface, all in the background at high warp, while simultaneously mapping the terrain and biomes. Then pick a spot for the mine off the resulting map without needing any other surveying.
  

[Caelib]

The game is what you make it. If you WANT it take longer, then stare at your screen in real-time for one complete rotation as it goes around the planet and pretend that is what it was doing the whole time

Consider the possibility that there are certain mechanics that aren't game-play elements because they aren't "fun".

[Geschosskopf]

Consider the possibility that there are certain mechanics that aren't game-play elements because they aren't "fun".

Amen to that. This was my one of my main gripes with Kethane. That presented you with a harsh choice depending on whether you were more concerned with the amount of your real time life invested in the scan, or how much game time passed during the scan. These choices were in direct opposition to each other---going 1 way greatly impacted the other. This was because it couldn't scan in the background so during the scan, you couldn't do anything at all but stay focused on the scanning probe.

If you were concerned about your own real time, then you had to make a huge probe with scads of scanners and lots of power, put it in a high orbit, and run it at huge warp. This would reduce the real time to a few minutes, but years, even decades of game time would pass in the process, so this wasn't an option if you had any other ships in transit at the time, used life support mods, or had any other time-sensitive thing going on. OTOH, minimizing game time meant flying as low as possible and still be able to do 50x warp (the maximum warp for a probe with less than 8-10 scanners), which would consume "only" about 1-2 weeks of game time but the real time required was like 6-8 hours. Best to get it started and leave it running overnight while you slept.

I am SO glad Squad chose NOT to do anything at all resembling Kethane scanning with the ore system .

Anyway, the bottom line is, the value each player places on time in KSP depends on a host of factors. The amount of free time the player has due to real life, the player's relative level of concern between real time and game time, what all he's got going in your game, whether or not he uses life support, etc. But no matter how you those factors apply to you, it is NEVER fun for ANYBODY to be forced just to sit there staring at the screen, doing nothing and unable to do anything, waiting on the totally arbitrary timer on some game mechanic to expire.

[gogozerg]

Consider the possibility that there are certain mechanics that aren't game-play elements because they aren't "fun".

Consider the possibility that stock instant resource scanning is not fun.

[Geschosskopf]

Consider the possibility that stock instant resource scanning is not fun.

You obviously have not been paying attention.

Stock does NOT give you instant resource scanning. All you get "instantly" is a clue that a region roughly the size of Texas contains more biomes with higher ore values than biomes lower ore values for that planet. It doesn't tell you which biomes those are, it doesn't tell you how much ore those biomes have, it doesn't tell you where in that Texas-sized region any particular biome is located, and it doesn't tell you whether or not this region of relatively good biome density even contains the highest-value biomes on the planet. In short, it tells you NOTHING of any practical value that you can use immediately. It is, in effect, exactly what you should already know about the planet from ground-based observations prior to actually going there.

If you base your mining solely on the results of the "instant" orbital scan, then you are destined for much frustration because the facts on the ground will NOT come close to matching what you see from the orbital overlay. All the orbital scanner does is point out good places to send the ground scanner and/or NBS to find out what's really going on. Only by doing that can you determine the real values of ore in specific biomes, and that is the info you need to pick a location for your mine. And poking around large areas of the planet's surface with the ground scanner is far from "instant", and in many cases isn't a trivial task from a design and piloting standpoint, either.

Now granted, some planets and moons don't have very many biomes. In those cases, if you're already familiar with that world's biome map, you can get a much better understanding of ore distribution from orbit than you can at places like Minmus which is covered by many small specks of many different biomes all swirled together like Damascus steel. But even on worlds with few biomes, you still will never know the actual ore concentration per biome without follow-up work.

So anyway, get off this "the scanning is instant" horse. It's simply not true. Learn how the system actually works.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Geschosskopf

[theend3r]

SCANsat is fine as a mod and I will continue to use it over stock as it's better it suits me more.

[gogozerg]

@Geschosskopf

I never said M700 gives you all details about planet resources and you're not teaching me anything. I won't argue for days, just one point:

It is, in effect, exactly what you should already know about the planet from ground-based observations prior to actually going there.

Right, that's why I thought that such scanning would be fine from KSC, or given for free. And why polar orbit? Such a vague scanning could work from other orbits, as long as you're not stationary.

I really like to put probes on orbits, but for good reasons, when I can see how it works, live the game. We are not in a text adventure game.

Edited May 28, 2015 by gogozerg

[Prepper-Jack]

It amuses me when people go off on rants where they claim nobody likes playing with "more realism" for added difficulty, and that the game should be entirely tailored to only their simplistic whims. To quote JFK: "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."

I, and others, enjoy a more involved method of scanning for resources (among other things). Take into account factors such as orbits not picking up every sector (and many orbits never will), and it turns out you need more fuel for the same task of mapping, and/or be very shrewd about the orbits you take. Also, factor in that you'll need to be within sight of the sun for the duration, or have a tremendous battery capacity, as resource scanning should be fairly power intensive. Throw in waste heat as a mechanism, and that too becomes problematic, solved by adding mass (radiators), or navigationally. Add in decaying orbits as a result of the two most influential bodies - and it gets even more involved. Success then results in a feeling of accomplishment, and a good spike in the readings on the surface adds to the drama.

In my opinion, the actual challenges of space flight should be more reflected as the game progresses in difficulty. "Easy" mode might do the baseline scan of a planet/moon instantly, where "Hard" might do it on a sector by sector basis in a narrow band. Surface scanning in easy might apply to the entire planet in Easy, where you would have to go sector by sector in Hard to get a precision spot to drill. As it stands, "Hard" mode doesn't really increase the difficulty of the game, just increases risk while reducing reward - which makes it more grindy. Relying entirely on the mod community to make your game more challenging, involved, and fun for a rather large segment of the community seems to be a poor way to go about it.

[DMagic]

The thing is, though, SCANsat gives you fully detailed knowledge of ore per biome from orbit, so there's no need for the ground scanner or NBS. So pick your poison:

• Stock: Use the "instant" orbital scanner to point you to locations where you're probably going to find examples of the biomes with the highest ore values for that planet. Then go to those areas with the ground scanner and/or NBS to find out which biomes have what ore values. Then, knowing that ore level is constant throughout each biome, pick a convenient place in that biome to set up your mine. The mine doesn't have to be where you've been before, just as long it's in the correct biome.
  
• SCANsat: Use the "incremental" orbital scan to get fully knowledge of ore distribution over the entire planetary surface, all in the background at high warp, while simultaneously mapping the terrain and biomes. Then pick a spot for the mine off the resulting map without needing any other surveying.
  

There are several options in between, if you leave the biome lock turned on then SCANsat doesn't give you any more specific detail about resource abundance than stock scanners do. When you haven't scanned any biomes you'll get the minimum resource amount for that biome (I think), so it just tells you that there is at least something there. When you have scanned at least one biome you'll get the average resource value for every other biome, it's only when you've scanned each biome that you get exact details about resource abundance. You can disable this option, but that's up to the user.

I've never been all that excited about setting up satellites in ideal orbits and time warping a few seconds to get a complete map of the planet, that's easy and a little boring. What I really like is the way you can set up satellites in very elliptical orbits, or just a fly-by and scan just a little slice of the surface, like you get with mapping from Cassini, or Galileo:

So if people just want a system where they can be forced to setup a proper orbit and wait a bit until they can see a complete map that's fine, but I like the other options that SCANsat, or a similar system, can provide: mapping isolated strips of a planet, a low-inclination orbit, a map built up over dozens of close encounters while zipping around the Jool system, etc...

And in case anyone is wondering, it's fairly simple to implement these types of scans into the stock overlay system. Because the resource scans use a lot of interpolation the maps generate almost instantly, just like stock overlays, and have none of that slow SCANsat map-building. Biome scans also work as map overlay.

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