What do you think of the new tech tree ?

[Hcube]

It's all in the title. I like it better than the previous one, but some things are still...err...derpy. Why do we get a probe before we can even get a fairing to launch it ? U_U

+Fairings are mixed with the aviation parts in the tree, wich makes no sense... Not gonna use a fairing on a jet, and maybe the player wont want to purchase plane parts at first, but will need fairings !

+Tier 2 node "General construction gives you a rockomax decoupler and a 2.5m decoupler even though you have no 2.5m parts to attach them to yet ! WHY?

+and many more, feel free to discuss i hope that the devs will sort this out in 1.0.hotfix

Edited April 29, 2015 by Hcube

[Valiant Corvus]

It makes very little sense. Progression wise it's all over the place in terms of actually giving you a gradual progression in terms of parts as you reach benchmarks (From ground to space, from space to orbit, from orbit to moon, from moon to beyond). I don't understand why unmanned tech is so far down the tree when that's usually the starting point of space exploration.

[klgraham1013]

The updates helped...a little. Maybe. At least it will be easier to mod now.

[justidutch]

Why do we get a probe before we can even get a fairing to launch it ? U_U

Werner: "Hey, I gots an idea, why don't we develop this robot thingy to do all the work, then we can just sit back and eat donuts all day!"

Jeb: "Dang, that's a grand idea!"

Werner: "Ok, here it is, strap it on a booster point it at Minmus"

Jeb: "ok, done"

Werner: *presses big red button*

Kablooie!

Werner: "hmmmm…. I guess we need to protect it somehow..."

[kookoo_gr]

I would go for the option, meh not impressed but not disappointed either

[justidutch]

... I don't understand why unmanned tech is so far down the tree when that's usually the starting point of space exploration.

Perhaps because the Kerbals are Kerbals, and not humans? I realize there's the big argument for realism, but whenever it comes up it always boils down to the fact that this is a game. With aliens who obviously do things differently than us.

As far as we know, there has only ever been one civilization to begin space exploration, and who's to say that this one civilization got it right?

[bakanando]

I'd vote for the second option, but I don't like the sentiment. It does need some more work into it, but most fixes are minor and nothing that breaks the game or progression too badly.

[MaxxPower]

You forgot the option for "It's worse than before".

Not saying it is, it didn't play 0.90.

But the current version is very poor.

Why can't i unlock reasonable sized fuel tanks earlier? Why do i have to build 6-high stacks of the smallest fuel tank?

The science progression and building upgrades are just a painful grind with a much too small selection of sub-par parts.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MaxxPower

[klgraham1013]

I'd vote for the second option, but I don't like the sentiment. It does need some more work into it, but most fixes are minor and nothing that breaks the game or progression too badly.

That's what frustrates me the most. As the tech tree stands, it would only take minor changes to make it good. Those changes weren't made. Small pieces in the wrong place can distort the overall effect of a tech tree so much. You can't just throw pieces around randomly or it can have a huge impact on the overall flow.

Disclaimer: I would actually prefer a different style of tree all together, but I accept that this is the one we have, so this is the one we work with.

[Hcube]

Perhaps because the Kerbals are Kerbals, and not humans? I realize there's the big argument for realism, but whenever it comes up it always boils down to the fact that this is a game. With aliens who obviously do things differently than us.

There's a difference between trial and error and having a part that you cannot use because you need another one too. In this case the "OMG so kerbal" is not even okay since you just cannot use the stayputnik without a fairing... wich is VERY far down the tech tree. Whats the point of even having it ? there is no way you can "do it differently" and thats what bugs me

As far as we know, there has only ever been one civilization to begin space exploration, and who's to say that this one civilization got it right?

at least our civilization figured out that fragile probes do not withstand airflow very well when going at roughly 1000m/s

EDIT : plus, you have to unlock "aviation" to research fairings, wich makes no sense : if i want to make rockets and probes early on, i still have to purchase those jet engines ! This is very annoying. Why are fairings in the same node as wings . its not like im gonna use any on my spaceplanes

Edited April 29, 2015 by Hcube

[tater]

I think that the entire tech tree/science/contract/career paradigm is not well thought out, and needs a fundamental change.

[Renegrade]

It seems like it's the same tree as before to me, only dressed up a bit with some nodes added. :/

Also, prices remain kinda insane in some areas. Why does a set of tailfins cost more than a rocket engine (tailfins x4 is 2000-2400, vs 1200 for a T-45)? They're basically bits of cardboard found lying by the side of the road.

[Temeter]

The new tree is good. Ofc it isn't realistic, that's the point. Mixing jet and faring parts works to give you some way to go for aircraft even though they have little actual use at this point. Frankly, it's kinda pointless until you get the turbo-ram jet. There needs some just spaceplane-capable interim engine. As for probes, you can lanuch them without fairing. It's just a little more inefficient.

Genjerally, the tech tree this time seems to be much more centered around improvements than logical and connected progression, at least in the early game. Lots of techs made it possible for me to continually improve my rockets, adding something from almost every tech node. E.g. the winglets allowed me to actually use the RT30 as an early stage engine without risking my craft. Works fine.

[Gfurst]

It makes very little sense. Progression wise it's all over the place in terms of actually giving you a gradual progression in terms of parts as you reach benchmarks (From ground to space, from space to orbit, from orbit to moon, from moon to beyond). I don't understand why unmanned tech is so far down the tree when that's usually the starting point of space exploration.

Idem!! That was the lure of the "unmanned program something" mod. Lighter rockets and probes that get further earlier on would seem ideal.

Right now I'm kinda stuck in career mode, finding it really hard to progress, between science being limited and short on money for building upgrades. Keep in mind I'm playing o moderate difficulty, and made a terrible mistake of choosing a policy for science which cost me 110k bucks and gave null science so far, as its not accumulative. Well I skipped the 0.9 version.

How do I cheat to get my money back?

[Lorunification]

I really don't know what all the fuzz is about. I have unlocked almost all of the tech tree and didn't even land on the moon. So stop complaining about parts are hard to unlock.

In my opinion the progression is just fine - the tech tree could be a little deeper though since you don't have to go interplanetary to unlock everything.

I think the last few nodes should be a reward for making it at least to duna.

Maybe it is possible (by mods e.g.) to make a node require a soil sample from a certain planet or moon to unlock or something.

[youkofoxy]

I have not read.

but here's my opinion:

they should separate the Tech tree like a Tree.

the root you would science.

on a branch structure and robotics.

in the other rockets.

and one especially for aircraft.

and you should start with a rocket that can be launched, explode and do not kill anyone.

before you are free to use one of the branches.

so everybody could be happy ...

or all world would be angry.

but happy or angry, is an excellent compromise anyway .

[X-SR71]

It's amazing allright, but not in a good way! It's amazing someone actually saw some logic in it!

I don't have it right now, but I remember seeing the 2.5m decoupler before any 2.5m part. Ladders too deep in the tree. 2.5m tanks and 2.5 engines on different 90 science-points nodes. I believe the first solar panel should be earlier too - the LV909 doesnt generate electricity and slapping moar batteries count against the parts limit.

I feel its a complete mess and needs to be redone to give a better sense of progression to career.

[Hcube]

I remember seeing the 2.5m decoupler before any 2.5m part. Ladders too deep in the tree. 2.5m tanks and 2.5 engines on different 90 science-points nodes.

Exactly ! Why is there a 2.5m decoupler before you get 2.5m parts ? Why can you get 2.5m tanks without 2.5m engines ? (clusters, maybe but you still cant have a cubic octagonal strut to do them either) This makes no sense at all. it is the first thing i saw when looking at the tech tree. How does this kind of stuff pass through experimentals ? I wonder.

[Lord Aurelius]

I agree with what tater said, the current paradigm is not ideal. Right now career mode gameplay is mostly a grind to unlock the tree with a few moments of brilliance thrown in where you're able to cobble together a mission with limited parts. Once you've unlocked the tree, you're basically back to sandbox as by that point you'll be making so much money it becomes meaningless. The only really expensive items are the building upgrades, rockets are dirt cheap by comparison (even interplanetary missions). The difficulty settings don't actually affect the difficulty of the game, they simply make it more grindy and tedious since you have to do more to unlock things, no additional skill is really required.

As far as the tech tree is concerned, there's a couple of bizarre decisions even very early in the tree. First off, the Flea is useless due to its pitiful ISP compared to everything else. The only reason to ever use it is for your first mission, and even then you could just walk your kerbal around the pad and get enough science to unlock the superior in every way RT-10. Next, why do you start with the biggest 1.25m engine and the smallest tank for it? Were they trying to prevent you from building large rockets early on by invoking the stupidly low part count limit? Further, you don't even get a decent upper stage engine until a 45-science node. Those are my biggest peeves with the current tree.

As far as fixing the whole paradigm, I think that first of all the career mode needs some kind of overarching goal for players to strive for, not just unlocking the tech tree, the tech tree needs to be a means to an end and not an end in itself. I think the game needs to be divided between contracts and missions, where contracts are optional side tasks to earn more funds/rep, and missions are part of the main overarching goal.

Parts should be unlocked/upgraded using funds, and science should be a special currency used as part of the main missions, or better yet do away with science points entirely and have each science experiment be a unique data point that gives different benefits, i.e. you do experiments with probes on another planet to unlock manned missions to that planet. Anomalies should also be integrated, I really liked Nightingale's anomaly explorer contracts and feel that something like that would be a great overarching goal (I'm pretty sure this idea was proposed by NovaSilisko awhile back and I'm surprised it never really went anywhere despite the anomalies present in the stock game).

[Gfurst]

I really don't know what all the fuzz is about. I have unlocked almost all of the tech tree and didn't even land on the moon. So stop complaining about parts are hard to unlock.

Seriously, how is that even possible?

It's amazing allright, but not in a good way! It's amazing someone actually saw some logic in it!

I don't have it right now, but I remember seeing the 2.5m decoupler before any 2.5m part. Ladders too deep in the tree. 2.5m tanks and 2.5 engines on different 90 science-points nodes. I believe the first solar panel should be earlier too - the LV909 doesnt generate electricity and slapping moar batteries count against the parts limit.

I feel its a complete mess and needs to be redone to give a better sense of progression to career.

Yep, some parts make no sense at all, the rockomax brand adapter comes before and actual 2.5 parts. the three people pod is waaaayyyy down the list.

Contracts asking me to test a Skipper engine in Flight when It would be heavier than anything I have combined...

Swept back wings placed on plane without any plane structural parts... Pretty weird stuff...

How much high tech are ladders by the way?

[FlowerChild]

Errr.why is there no option in the poll for "the tech tree is worse than before"?

Cause seriously, I found the one in 0.9 to be more fun. The addition of further nodes made for more meaningless decisions, as there were already too many nodes previously, and way too many meaningless decisions.

[Gfurst]

Parts should be unlocked/upgraded using funds, and science should be a special currency used as part of the main missions, or better yet do away with science points entirely and have each science experiment be a unique data point that gives different benefits, i.e. you do experiments with probes on another planet to unlock manned missions to that planet. Anomalies should also be integrated, I really liked Nightingale's anomaly explorer contracts and feel that something like that would be a great overarching goal (I'm pretty sure this idea was proposed by NovaSilisko awhile back and I'm surprised it never really went anywhere despite the anomalies present in the stock game).

Really liked this idea, that science is unlocked not by science points but achievements and goals you complete. it would surely give a much better progression to the game.

AS the tech tree, needs to be streamlined, like someone else said, one bench for engines, oother for structures and whatnots. Meaning, one you get bigger engine, you get all parts related to 2.5, then get engines more efficient later, and so one.

[oriramikad]

It's better than before. I was actually able to get to the Mun this time. Although now all my 200+ Mun science is marooned because of way too little fuel on the return stage.

[Wiseman]

Some of the groupings are nonsense and make the early- to mid-game transition a lot harder than it needs to be, especially when taken together with the type of contracts that are doled out. On the other hand, I like a lot of the groupings better overall, and the way that they've opened up the structure to be easier to fiddle with is great. I also like how many nodes there are and that it takes a bit more science-ing to get the whole thing done, since my biggest issue with the .90 and previous tech trees was just that progression was over too soon.

It feels almost like they spent all their time rebuilding the back-end of the tech tree, then had to throw parts into nodes rapidly and at the last minute. I'm hoping for a more significant pass at career balance in 1.1.

[Superfluous J]

There's a definite canyon right around the 90-cost tier, where if you're good at the game and want to go to Mun and Minmus with more than one person you simply don't have the tools, even though you have the talent. I guess I'll do the same one-person, no-science mission I always do.

And yeah with the growing emphasis on planes the need for a ladder is even higher. Though at least now you can (probably, haven't tried it) make a clamberable plane.

Frankly I'm a bit surprised that 2 whole days from release nobody's put out a tech tree modman config that moves stuff around a bit.