Squad is slowly reintroducing soup o' sphere with 1.01

[klgraham1013]

Doing major aero changes in a hotfix. Wow. That's something else.

[RocketPilot573]

I did some more tests, things DO seem to get easier once the sound barrier is broken!

*Fasten seat belt sign turns on*

"This is your captain speaking, we will now begin our descent"

*engines spool up to max thrust*

Edited May 2, 2015 by RocketPilot573

[antiquark]

Soupmosphere is back in 1.0.2.

I sorta liked the accurate atmosphere. You could reach the ground in less than 15 minutes. Now... set the glide path, and wait while the vehicle takes its time at 40 m/s.

[sp1989]

I am definitely sad I really liked the new atmosphere. The soupy atmosphere really stinks. I dove straight down full throttle today after the new update and my plane started to slow down. Come on squad!!

[RocketPilot573]

I am definitely sad I really liked the new atmosphere. The soupy atmosphere really stinks. I dove straight down full throttle today after the new update and my plane started to slow down. Come on squad!!

This, right here. I would really appreciate it if Squad could review what 1.0.1 has done and revert the changes. They say they put a ton of time into tuning the 1.0.0 atmosphere just right, and they did. But massively changing it with only a couple day's testing after the full game release is not ok. I'm sorry if this just sounds like I'm whining about a nerf, but all I want is an atmosphere that is somewhat realistic. As sp1989 said, a supersonic rated aircraft in a maximum thrust dive should not "slow down," it should continue accelerating until it breaks apart, burns up, or hits the ground.

You guys got good reviews about 1.0, so why did you change it?

Edited May 2, 2015 by RocketPilot573

[Grumman]

...all I want is an atmosphere that is somewhat realistic.

I want an atmosphere that enables fun. If the 1.0.2 atmosphere was unrealistic but in a way that made it easier to launch rockets, fly spaceplanes or reenter the atmosphere without burning up that would be one thing, but it's just an unpleasant change to the game. I had something like a dozen rockets for various missions and 1.0.2 just renders them all impotent. My go-to rocket for orbital tours, with fuel to burn for rescue missions, can barely escape the atmosphere, and that's not fun.

[RocketPilot573]

I want an atmosphere that enables fun. If the 1.0.2 atmosphere was unrealistic but in a way that made it easier to launch rockets, fly spaceplanes or reenter the atmosphere without burning up that would be one thing, but it's just an unpleasant change to the game. I had something like a dozen rockets for various missions and 1.0.2 just renders them all impotent. My go-to rocket for orbital tours, with fuel to burn for rescue missions, can barely escape the atmosphere, and that's not fun.

I agree with this too. Basically, this patch killed both realism AND fun.

[Aanker]

I want an atmosphere that enables fun. If the 1.0.2 atmosphere was unrealistic but in a way that made it easier to launch rockets, fly spaceplanes or reenter the atmosphere without burning up that would be one thing, but it's just an unpleasant change to the game. I had something like a dozen rockets for various missions and 1.0.2 just renders them all impotent. My go-to rocket for orbital tours, with fuel to burn for rescue missions, can barely escape the atmosphere, and that's not fun.

QFT. Dragmatic 33% changes to the aero physics should not be delivered in a hotfix format, and the changes are not really beneficial to the game.

[StevenJ]

I agree with this too. Basically, this patch killed both realism AND fun.

They said they fixed parachutes and heatshields. Let's be specific, stock drag multiplier is too high. Needs to be set back to .6, there were good things done this patch as well.

[sp1989]

By god, its the perfect crime!

but no, 1.0 was unbalanced in a few regards, and now your unbalanced craft has been rebalanced by the patch, it is just a bit inadequate.

It's certainly a crime.

[RocketPilot573]

I was amazed when I first played 1.0.0... For the first time since FSX I was able to fly anplane and have it feel and handle like a plane. Then 1.0.1 happened and its back to flying a brick again.

[StevenJ]

I was amazed when I first played 1.0.0... For the first time since FSX I was able to fly anplane and have it feel and handle like a plane. Then 1.0.1 happened and its back to flying a brick again.

I agree, drag is too high. It was too high stock also as was lift low down, landing and take of speeds were much lower than in FAR. Squad always feels to me like they are compensating for 1. all the planetary bodies being 1/10th the size of Sol system, and the thrust of air breathing engines for turbo jets and basic jet engines being too high.

[Binho]

I don't know if this is more realistic or not, but the drag is really noticeable now. While it's not impossible to get an SSTO spaceplane in to orbit (Got my 1.0 design in to orbit without any changes), I feel having to dive to build up enough speed is a bit silly. My spaceplane was notably less stable as well - the controls were suddenly much more squirrely. I'll have to add my voice to the crowd who doesn't like the 1.0.2 aero changes. 1.0 felt more like old FAR to fly in. This feels more like 0.9 again.

[h4didact]

I'd rather have the 1.0 drag settings than 1.01 for the sake of gliding shuttles to land. Drag in 1.0 was perfect in my opinion. Drag in 1.01 sucks. IMO.

[NathanKell]

So for everyone thinking 1.0.2 is too soupy, while down low things are draggier than FAR, over 14km (aka when density <= 0.1kg/m^3) I get _higher_ top speeds in 1.0.2 stock than I do in 0.90 FAR (same craft, rocket engine, checked to make sure thrust at that altitude was identical between .90 and 1.0).

[Shadowlord]

My most effective rocket doesn't even make it into space anymore - once in the second stage it behaves like it has a TWR below 1.0 and only makes it to 17 km before falling back down, burning 90-95% of its fuel before it stops falling. Nothing in the game gives any clues as to why it's happening. Masses and thrust on the parts all appear unchanged.

In 1.0, it could easily fly straight up to 100 km and still have delta v left over in the second stage.

[passinglurker]

So for everyone thinking 1.0.2 is too soupy, while down low things are draggier than FAR, over 14km (aka when density <= 0.1kg/m^3) I get _higher_ top speeds in 1.0.2 stock than I do in 0.90 FAR (same craft, rocket engine, checked to make sure thrust at that altitude was identical between .90 and 1.0).

so is this good, bad, or back to straight up to 10k then turn to 45degrees? I haven't had a chance to properly play it myself today

Edited May 2, 2015 by passinglurker

[HoneyFox]

As far as i've observed, two things i feel need changes:

1. the drag due to lift seems to be applied twice, first time when applying normal force as lift force for wings, second time when applying drag force using the Physics.cfg's liftDragModifier. An easy example is by pulling your a/c to nearly 90 deg of AoA, you can see by activating the debug option that both the "lift" force (blue line, actually it's normal force instead of lift force i think) and the drag force (red line) contribute to slow down the a/c. That's not quite right.

2. Control surfaces' actuator's angular rates are a bit too low, they might be just ok for some large aircrafts, but definitely not responding fast enough for fighter-class aircrafts.

[Darnok]

So old:

dragMultiplier = 6.0

dragCubeMultiplier = 0.06

angularDragMultiplier = 2

liftMultiplier = 0.038

liftDragMultiplier = 0.03

bodyLiftMultiplier = 8

New:

dragMultiplier = 8.0

dragCubeMultiplier = 0.1

angularDragMultiplier = 2

liftMultiplier = 0.055

liftDragMultiplier = 0.025

bodyLiftMultiplier = 10.7

33% more drag, 44% more lift

Really not insignificant.

Ok this is bad as hotfix :/

[adinfinitum]

1. the drag due to lift seems to be applied twice, first time when applying normal force as lift force for wings, second time when applying drag force using the Physics.cfg's liftDragModifier. An easy example is by pulling your a/c to nearly 90 deg of AoA, you can see by activating the debug option that both the "lift" force (blue line, actually it's normal force instead of lift force i think) and the drag force (red line) contribute to slow down the a/c. That's not quite right.

That would be more related to how they calculate lift based on angle of attack, since I don't think they have actual stalls, where your lift would drop pretty much to zero at high AoA.

[problemecium]

Hmmm, maybe I should have ranted here instead of in the Grand Discussion Thread.

I don't usually chime in on complaint threads, but for once I too am here to whine about the souposphere. All of the rockets I had built for 1.0.0 are now not only weaker but entirely unable to get to orbit (unless maybe there's no payload).

And on another note, everything seems even MORE keen on flipping. I'm not only having to put crazy amounts of wings on my rockets, despite thinking I knew how to make rockets work, but I'm starting to wonder if it's even possible to control a rocket without putting wings all over the bottom. :C

[AlphaAsh]

Busy restoring some actual fun to the game (for me, okay) and wanted to pick the brains of anyone else who doesn't want to deal with 95% of rockets being flip happy.

I'm trying out two different fixes. A multiplier on all torques of all reaction wheels and a change to the mass of the two main fuels. Here's what I'm trying with MM.

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel]]
{
        @MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel]
        {
	@PitchTorque *= 3
	@YawTorque *= 3
	@RollTorque *= 3
         }
}

Still haven't settled on a mass change to the fuels. Thoughts anyone?

Edited May 2, 2015 by AlphaAsh
Cos I forgot how to code

[Jouni]

Aerodynamics are definitely better in in 1.01/1.02 than in 1.0. In 1.0, there was barely any time to deploy the parachutes between going subsonic and hitting ground, but now the descent feels quite similar to 0.90 with FAR. If you think that planes no longer behave as they should, maybe it's the plane parts that have been broken all the time, and the aerodynamics fixes in 1.01 just revealed it.

[joespeed52]

That's why I'm not directly updating. 😉

[georgTF]

I want an atmosphere that enables fun. If the 1.0.2 atmosphere was unrealistic but in a way that made it easier to launch rockets, fly spaceplanes or reenter the atmosphere without burning up that would be one thing, but it's just an unpleasant change to the game...

I too feel this way. Most of the debate revolves around SSTOs, but i've only played career and never got that far. 1.0.2 is not a fun/good/sensible KSP to play for me. I'm very dissapointed and don't really have much of a choice.

Play 1.0.0 with the indestructible parachutes, 1.0 bugs but aero i enjoyed and stay away from 1.0.2 that the rest of the world is now playing and getting used to OR...

play 1.0.2 with the inconsistent aero i strongly dislike? I really feel stupid starting 1.0.0 but, but...