1.0.2 - Any hope left for SSTOs?

[panzer1b]

Well as the title says, it appears that SSTOs are now completely dead. Im not saying it is impossible to actually SSTO, heck i have a working craft right now, but it feels that 1.0 has truly killed any viability in SSTOs, with the new drag increases. I know that its most likely more realistic, but common, i think even FAR is easier to work with now.

Now im not questioning whether its realistic or not, thats a discussion for another thread, but is it actually more fun this way? SSTOs were already exponentially harder to make once 1.0 hit, and now it just doesnt feel enjoyable anymore to try to engineer something that just lags, flies liek a pig, and barely manages to bring any useful payload when i can make a basic rocket in 3 minutes and have whatever payload i wanted to get in jool orbit much faster then before. Now to get to anywhere you need insane part counts and weight, and things like laythe roundtrips are as good as dead, despite managing to pull it off under 1.0's drag.

Im still going to enjoy this game, but it seems that SSTOs have been excessively hard hit by the recent updates, to the point of loosing almost all practicality over rockets. Or at least thats my experience.

Finally, does anyone think its even remotely possible (without using exploits and bugs) to get to laythe and back without any refueling or IRSU useage? I used to make many SSTOs with an excess of 5K dV, now it seems that there is no way to make a long range SSTO, as small sized craft dont have the fuel to burn to orbit, and larger craft arent really my thing. Is it even possible to get a SSTO thats under 10t to the mun and back, as thats what im trying to pull off, but it doesnt look very promising?

[r4pt0r]

Whackjob threw together an SSTO that could almost land on the mun in 1.0, im fairly certain it can still make orbit in 1.0.2.

Keep the faith and persevere.

[Radam]

Well my mk2 spaceplane still works in 1.02, it has about 25% payload fraction. Same as in 1.0, then again mk3 stuff is harder, I did get to orbit with mk3 plane, 8 rapiers and 4 nervas. As it was pure fuel without a cocpit it still has 4000dv left.

[Jakinbandw]

I just wish they would make up their minds. I was finally getting a handle on 1.0 and made 2 test SSTO's and this update hits and it killed them. It also made my normal difficulty career mode a bit harder. Now I'm going to have to redesign everything all over again. >.<

[dryer_lint]

Same as in 1.0, then again mk3 stuff is harder, I did get to orbit with mk3 plane, 8 rapiers and 4 nervas. As it was pure fuel without a cocpit it still has 4000dv left.

I've been thinking about this. Is it just me, or are Mk3 parts kind of biased towards airliner-style crafts? I mean, look at the Mk1 speedy fighter jets. The Mk2 sleek re-entry vehicles. And the Mk3... chubby Kerbair ship.

[Seleukus]

Pretty much all of my rockets achieve orbit in one stage. What's your problem? A single mammoth engine can easily put 30 tons to LKO. I can't say I've managed to land one on land though. Working on it.

[MaxxPower]

Someone doesn't know what SSTO means.

...loosing almost all practicality over rockets.

SSTOs can be rockets.

Is it even possible to get a SSTO thats under 10t to the mun and back...

It's Single Stage To Orbit, not single stage to mun and back.

And no they are not impossible. Far from it. A single Rapier with a fuel tank and some wings tacked on can do the job easily.

[rodion_herrera]

Try to download and install this (it's totally free) simulator. There's a winged-SSTO in this program called the "DeltaGlider". If you can reach LEO with it, you'd have no trouble at all bringing almost any winged-SSTO in KSP v1.x.x to LKO.

This only means everything you knew about pre-1.0 aerodynamics, you have to throw out of the window, and learn a new one, that might not be so forgiving, but is actually closer to real-world aerodynamics.

http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

[Brotoro]

I thought my 1.0 spaceplane was dead in 1.0.1... but it just needed to be flown differently.

[MKI]

There's plenty of hope. Unless you designed your SSTO's off infa-gliding you and everyone just needs to learn how to fly them differently and accustom themselves to the new engine changes.

In fact larger SSTO designs should have an easier time, as would semi-returnable crafts (shuttle like systems) and because of the generally "softer" atmosphere rocket based SSTO's can make it to orbit much easier. Getting back in general is much harder, but then we are talking about one of the key aspects that needs to be dealt with when it comes to winged crafts, how to survive re-entry.

Personally I like the tilt tward larger craft going further rather than smaller crafts going further. Not only does that make practical sense, it makes game play sense. Why use rockets when a tiny SSTO can get the same job done? Its only fitting if you want to go far, you need to make a bigger SSTO/ Rocket.

[Borsek]

What's with all the SSTO whining post 1.0? Yes, the atmosphere is no longer soup, there is no more Kirby airhogging (or should I say Kerby), but SSTOs still get to orbit, and if you engineer them correctly, they have plenty of dV and or fuel left when they reach it.

[regex]

I got an SSTO spaceplane to orbit in 1.0.2, no idea what anyone is whining about. Sure, you can't build them like you used to in LOLAERO land, but they fly so much better now. Once you know how to get them to orbit they're dead simple.

[Enorats]

Ever since I downloaded FAR in .90 I've used planes almost exclusively. Why launch a 300 ton rocket into space that practically breaks my computer when I can get a sub 100 part plane up there far easier and for a fraction of the cost.. then refuel in LKO and be on my way with 7000 delta V? Heck, the night before 1.0 I put two ~350 ton planes into orbit to serve as orbital fuel stations for my smaller birds. That's not happening under stock 1.0. Not even close.

[Alshain]

I thought my 1.0 spaceplane was dead in 1.0.1... but it just needed to be flown differently.

You pretty much described how FAR users have been flying planes all along, good job, you figured it out quickly (it took me what feels like forever).

[panzer1b]

Someone doesn't know what SSTO means.

And no they are not impossible. Far from it. A single Rapier with a fuel tank and some wings tacked on can do the job easily.

Naming conventions aside (i consider SSTO anything that doesnt dump and parts, SSTO to LKO is the most common, but i also make SSTO to other planets).

Id liek to see a WORKING design with a single rapier that can do mun and back, and is UNDER 10t! If thats even possible (i doubt it myself), then i take back everything ive said about single-stage-to-wherever being dead. Also, it has to be a legit craft, no cheapo fuel tank+engine+probecore. It should have a MK1 inline cockpit (or another cockpit of choice), and at least some stubby wings/fins.

Also, based on some quick calculations, you will have roughly 4 tons of dry mass (1 for cockpit, 2 rapier, 1ish for stuff like solars/rtgs/wings/ect), and the rest would have to be fuel tanks, but i just fail to see how you can get enough fuel to pull off BOTH orbit, mun burn, landing, AND return burn! I dont think its doable anymore, that is without exploits like massless batteries+ion cluster (which is nolonger doable as massless parts actually have mass, they just dont shift the CoG as much). The absolute max dV assuming that half your craft (5t) is rocket fuel, would be around 2000, this is nowhere near adequate for the mission id like to do. Even if you had 4 tons dry mass, 6 tons fuel (not achieveable realistically for a 10t max limit), you STILL wont be able to pull it off as the dV for the rapier would be 2700, perhaps doable, but since you arent ever going to get this without refueling in orbit, i pretty much consider SSTOs to other planets or even the mun (which are ALSO lightweight) done!

[regex]

Do you know why you can't get to orbit?

It's simple: the rules have changed.

As a player who wants to make an SSTO, it is your job to figure out the new rules because it's pretty obvious the old ones don't apply at all. This is how things worked when you started playing KSP. Things are fresh now and you have to learn things again. You have a chance to experience KSP from the beginning a secone time, relish it.

[BudgetHedgehog]

Also, since Squad have bumped the realism up a notch, until real life produces an SSTO, there's not really any grounds for complaint. SSTO planes are difficult - they're supposed to be. It's why they don't exist in real life. Jesus, it's like people have grown accustomed to some incredibly wrong aerodynamics and atmosphere model or something...

[Chronosheep]

I must admit I'm a bit frustrated by this re-balance.

Not so much because I don't like it, but mostly because I had finally figured out how to build an SSTO that most likely would be able to return from Laythe in 1.0.

Such major changes should come as a patch less than a week after release.

In 1.01, returning from Laythe (is at least for me) slightly out of reach.

Duna should be possible, though.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Chronosheep

[Alshain]

Also, since Squad have bumped the realism up a notch, until real life produces an SSTO, there's not really any grounds for complaint. SSTO planes are difficult - they're supposed to be. It's why they don't exist in real life. Jesus, it's like people have grown accustomed to some incredibly wrong aerodynamics and atmosphere model or something...

Lets not use that excuse. While I agree this thread and others like it are just over-reacting, this is a game, not real life.

[Aanker]

I don't think the "l2p" counterarguments are entirely valid. If the new drag values impose such limits on construction that SSTOs post-1.0.2 all resemble sparsely winged sausages and are unable to perform any of the more demanding tasks that skilled spaceplane builders could accomplish in previous patches, then I think something has been taken away from the game and it isn't too much to ask that some mercy be had on us aircraft enthusiasts.

[regex]

I don't think the "l2p" counterarguments are entirely valid. If the new drag values impose such limits on construction that SSTOs post-1.0.2 all resemble sparsely winged sausages and are unable to perform any of the more demanding tasks that skilled spaceplane builders could accomplish in previous patches, then I think something has been taken away from the game

Nonsense. The rules have changed, figure out how to do what you want to do. Learn different building techniques and ways of flying. If you can't stack wings like before try some other parts. There's a person who built a double-hulled spaceplane with an aeroshell for cargo and others who built spaceplanes able to take an orange tank to orbit; clearly there's plenty of room for creativity and payload. "l2p" is the name of the game and you have an entire forum full of fellow players willing to help you, and share techniques. That's a wonderful resource available to you.

it isn't too much to ask that some mercy be had on us aircraft enthusiasts.

What you had before wasn't an aircraft, it was a soupcraft.

[Borsek]

I threw this together in about 20 mins, Carries ca. 8t of mass to 180km orbit with fuel to spare, and I wasted about 200 dV to get to a 180k orbit, bout 200t on the runway. In any case, SSTOs are very much alive. Adapt and survive or regress and die, it's what kerbals have been doing since they crawled out of the primodial code-soup.

And I did this without even going for efficiency or really trying.

[TokiTech]

Just logged and found out i missed 2 updates over night! Wow! Downloading a fresh copy now and i'll see if my 5 SSTO spaceplanes still works.

[panzer1b]

i can understand how many say learn to adapt, and i agree, ive already started making new SSTOs that do work, but thing about whether this new drag has added any sort of fun to the game?

While i like stuff to be plausible, realism for the sake of realism isnt exactly my style, i prefer more fun and a variety of craft to be viable/functional, especially at lower part counts. My biggest issue with this update is that its killed off the truly long range SSTOs. I know in real life (without going into some sci-fi tech and or very advanced engines, vasmir, ion, ect) SSTOs arent exactly practical nor long range, but i think that KSP shouldnt just make them all useless for anything but short ranges. Im also (like id assume many other players) limited by max part counts, yes i can make a super heavy SSTo thatll get to orbit and drop off a fuel tank ect, but again, i dont enjoy high part counts as i like to have interaction between craft.

Its i guess a matter of what is fun and what is 100% realistic. Personally im more into the whole fun part of teh game, with certain limits on realism (i dont enjoy complete insanity unless its capital ships that i Hedit into LKO anyways). i like my game to feel plausible, but i feel this new drag has limited SSTOs from being as fun as they used to.

[Borsek]

After 400+ h in-game, I can reinvent SSTOs, that makes it fun imho.