Give wing parts a tweakable to allow their use as structural and aesthetic parts

[regex]

Let's face it, people like panel van SSTOs. Unfortunately they can't build them anymore because of how wings act in the game now. Basically we should have a tweakable that removes the wing's ability to provide lift and adds a simple drag cube so that people can continue using them as aesthetic parts.

[treejoe4]

no, that's stupid and cartoonish

[regex]

no, that's stupid and cartoonish

3/10 but only because I don't like the way those planes look too.

[treejoe4]

3/10 but only because I don't like the way those planes look too.

neither do i , but now besides from the rough surfaces they have they are more realistic

and anyway you should wait for further updates because there is no way in hell it should stay like it is now

[regex]

neither do i , but now besides from the rough surfaces they have they are more realistic

eh, the panel van builders claim it's an "aerodynamic shell", I see no reason why that shouldn't work.

and anyway you should wait for further updates because there is no way in hell it should stay like it is now

Why would I wait to make a sensible suggestion? Aside from some parts tweaking, and maybe upping the atmospheric heating a bit, 1.0.2 is fine.

[sal_vager]

I personally would much prefer some new decorative parts that allowed for panel van craft, oh and if they did have a use, such as heatsinks, that'd solve other complaints as well

[Aanker]

Yes, I think this or new decorative parts would be a good solution. Ultimately, something like procedural fuselages and wings would allow the most freedom, but that is a distant dream.

Fuselage panels could be used as heatsinks, very light and slightly effective thermal protection and maybe in late tiers even as integrated solar panels or something.

[OrbitusII]

I'd like that, dedicated aesthetic panels for aircraft would be very nice.

[regex]

Fuselage panels could be used as heatsinks, very light and slightly effective thermal protection and maybe in late tiers even as integrated solar panels or something.

This might sound like sacrilege but what if wings could be for lift, dead weight panels, or even radiators? It would be a pretty good use for a single part, IMO, and easily implemented through tweakables.

[Aanker]

Yeah, if that can be simulated accurately.

I mean I like the simplicity of using a single set of parts for so many different roles. But dedicated aesthetic parts would be 100% not associated with wing drag and lift effects and so maybe easier to simulate. Maybe.

[r4pt0r]

The wing bits do look nicer than the structural panels for aesthetic use, but I understand wing drag is an issue. so either add aesthetic panels and such, or this suggestion would work just as well.

+1 to the Spacehippie

[regex]

Yeah, if that can be simulated accurately.

I mean I like the simplicity of using a single set of parts for so many different roles. But dedicated aesthetic parts would be 100% not associated with wing drag and lift effects and so maybe easier to simulate. Maybe.

Nah, I know how easy it is. I was speculating on this the other day and my suspicions were confirmed by someone else. Adding a tweakable to disable lift and replace the non-existant dragcube with a proper one is literally trivial. Maybe a one hour job plus ModuleManager config, two to three with testing if you're lazy. To be quite <expletive> honest I have no idea why that sort of thing wasn't added.

[Red Iron Crown]

This might sound like sacrilege but what if wings could be for lift, dead weight panels, or even radiators? It would be a pretty good use for a single part, IMO, and easily implemented through tweakables.

Someone need to gin this idea into a mod to demonstrate the concept.

[War Eagle 1]

panel van SSTOs.

Panel Van?

[Aanker]

Panel Vans and Hot Dogs, the 'memes' (or more accurately catchphrases, but hey modernity) of 1.0.2.

[tntristan12]

But... Squad's bullheaded insistence on enforcing "lego-style gameplay" by forcing the player to sift through hundreds of only-slightly-different individual panels and parts precludes this kind of sensible, efficient, and interesting gameplay. Does it not?

[Rath]

I sort of made a little mod that adds a structural version of all the wings Eg: Delta Wing Structural If anyone wants it they can have it.

Shameless self promotion

[allmhuran]

no, that's stupid and cartoonish

Right, and "stupid and cartoonish" obviously doesn't describe anything at all about KSP.

[Ival70]

I'd like to see this in 1.1

[KSK]

Nah, I know how easy it is. I was speculating on this the other day and my suspicions were confirmed by someone else. Adding a tweakable to disable lift and replace the non-existant dragcube with a proper one is literally trivial. Maybe a one hour job plus ModuleManager config, two to three with testing if you're lazy. To be quite <expletive> honest I have no idea why that sort of thing wasn't added.

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that Squad figured most players would be content with a new aerodynamic model, a slew of new aircraft parts including undercarriage that actually works, proper cargo bays, larger wings, wet wings, airbrakes etc. etc. Sticking in a kludgy tweakable to ensure backward compatibility with a class of old designs that were largely prompted by the need to cheese as many wings onto a spaceplane as possible to give it sufficient lift... probably wasn't very high on the list.

Edit: With that said - if somebody can write a mod for it then why not.

Edit: I also recall a set of dev notes where HarvesteR was talking about the new aero model and the need to balance it to allow some room for crazy contraptions still. Given that I've seen flying podracers and X-wings in orbit, I'd say he got that part about right. Another reason why adding that kind of tweakable probably wasn't high on the priority list.

Edited May 4, 2015 by KSK

[Redshift OTF]

Let's face it, people like panel van SSTOs. Unfortunately they can't build them anymore because of how wings act in the game now. Basically we should have a tweakable that removes the wing's ability to provide lift and adds a simple drag cube so that people can continue using them as aesthetic parts.

This is a good idea. Thanks for suggesting it!

- - - Updated - - -

Sticking in a kludgy tweakable to ensure backward compatibility with a class of old designs that were largely prompted by the need to cheese as many wings onto a spaceplane as possible to give it sufficient lift... probably wasn't very high on the list.

Erm, a lot of wing pieces were added for aesthetic purposes not to cheese lift. No-one needed to cheese lift in 0.9, a basic wing setup would get you off the runway easily enough. The only time I have seen surfaces used for performance purposes was when people added many control surfaces for acrobatic planes or abusing the infiniglide bug.

[Kegereneku]

Just wanted to say I saw Regex suggestion coming a while before the new Aerodynamic...

FAR-lover were like : "SQUAD, WE MUST ABSOLUTELY MAKE SHAPE MATTER IN AERODYNAMIC, IT MUST BE REALISTIC !"

And I was like : "Remember we want aesthetic stuff possible"

But they were all : "Make the physic realistic and it will be aesthetic, a pancake rocket shouldn't fly, only sensible design should."

Now, when it turn out you CAN'T keep the vessels aerodynamic and aesthetic as well we suddenly remember the benefit of simplified physics and now to build pretty we will need the weight without the (deactivated) lift.

Don't get me wrong, it is still worth the new aerodynamic, but be glad if aesthetic can be made easy again through simple tweaks.

For now we will have these "Why was adding aerodynamic stability removed?" topic.

Sorry if my post seem to bring nothing to the subject,

Myself I don't mind the idea of selectively deactivate lift without getting (completely) weight/dragless part.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Kegereneku
precision

[Aanker]

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that Squad figured most players would be content with a new aerodynamic model, a slew of new aircraft parts including undercarriage that actually works, proper cargo bays, larger wings, wet wings, airbrakes etc. etc. Sticking in a kludgy tweakable to ensure backward compatibility with a class of old designs that were largely prompted by the need to cheese as many wings onto a spaceplane as possible to give it sufficient lift... probably wasn't very high on the list.

We didn't add the wing panels to exploit lift. Lift wasn't even a concern in the old souposphere (and isn't in the new one either) - the reason was for aesthetics. This suggested solution would at least allow us to spend more time building spaceplanes the way we like them.

[Whirligig Girl]

I did an experiment, and I found that structural panels act as wing surfaces due to the body lift system. Removing the lift wouldn't actually change much.

[regex]

This is a good idea. Thanks for suggesting it!

To be fair, I'm just channeling some of the more vitriolic threads on the subject (and I'm certainly not denying my own vitriol RE: the subject). I just think a proper suggestion thread would serve us all better. Nothing wrong with one person's aesthetic sense over another's, but the argument is much better served as a suggestion.

Interestingly, this also serves my own purposes for space radiators. Wings shed heat fantastically, being able to turn them into structural parts would make launching interplanetary tugs using radiator wings much, much easier. Right now it's an incredibly fiddly process with all the lift interactions.