Mobile Processing Lab of Babysitting

[RoverDude]

Recently I've got a ship with a lab and some science tools to the Jool's SOI. I admit it was kinda challenging and quite interesting, no complains here. And then...

1. Fill the lab with science data.

2. Process the data while fast forwarding.

3. Transmit science.

4. If there's not enough free space in the lab, go to step 2.

5. Go to step 1.

I'd say, it's more like a babysitting simulator than a space sim. Not challenging, not even difficult. Just tedious. Click-click-click-wait-click-click-click-wait, repeat until you win.

Is it just me or?..

It's that step 2 If you're just min-maxing and timewarping, you're essentially doing the KSP equivalent of watching paint dry while a thousand other awesome things happen right outside your door. Not saying it's wrokg (it's a single player game), but don't be surprised if doing nothing but mashing a few keys ends up being boring

It was pointed out that Squad didn't want time based stuff like this in their game and suddenly they put this in... Fortunately it's not necessary to use. I still bring everything back like I used to. I may lose some doing this but I like it more that way.

Not quite the same thing. The idea behind it is to give bases a purpose, and provide a secondary, passive science stream where there's a bit more interactivity over the long haul (and I expect any mechanic can become un-fun with min-maxing).

I like the science lab. I have three of them right now - at LKO, Mun and Minmus (All were conveninetly placed as contract stations). I just stuff them with data and do other stuff. Sometimes I check the labs to get some science or refill them with data gathered by landers (at the Mun/Minmus), dunno about LKO one.

That was pretty much the intent. It kicks in right about the time folks start getting tired of grinding biomes.

It's a pretty tedious mechanic, but also overpowered. Once you put a lab and a hopper on Minmus you can complete the tech tree wihout going anywhere else.

However, if you use a life support mod the lab becomes fairly balanced. Fast-forwarding becomes expensive when you have to resupply the base constantly.

Depends on how you define tedious. It definitely is if you feel obligated to timewarp to each transmisison. Same way you can exploit resources by mining on the launchpad and recovering for the (small) value of Ore.

Granted, we could unlock the entire stock tree before leaving Minmus anyway. But then, as someone else noted, unlocking the tech tree is not the game. It's just the point at which the real game begins.

I'm not really a fan of the "speedbump" mechanic requiring manual intervention to prevent timewarp abuse. I get what they're trying to do, but it penalizes legitimate timewarp use, e.g. the player has to stop every so often during a long transfer to transmit the data, it's just tedious.

Time-based mechanics should be balanced with other time-based mechanics IMO, whether it's life support or ongoing costs or whatever.

There's no obligation to stop however. But there had to be some kind of cap

[fairytalefox]

But how can you get unlimited science? Is there now no limit with doing the same experiments over and over again? I remember extremely diminishing returns, especially for transmitting... Oo

Please go easy on me, I haven't had the time to play 1.0 yet as I refuse to let my old savegame go, and I need to wait for all my vessels to return and my mods to be updated

I have a lab with two scientists in it, one Science Jr, one Goo container (two, actually, for better CoM balancing), a thermometer, a barometer and a bunch of Gigantor solar arrays.

On my way to Jool, I do all the science in the Sol's SoI. I load all the experiments into the lab, then transmit them home, then reset Science Jr and Goo and wait till the data are processed in the lab up to 500 science (max lab capacity), transmit the science from the lab, then wait and transmit again. Then I'm in the Jool's SoI. I do all the science "high over Jool", transmit the experiments and load the data into the lab, reset ScJr and Goo, do course correction to set my periapsis to 300 km for insertion maneuver (is it the right word? I'm not sure) and process the data. When at the periapsis, I brake till my apoapsis lowers to 300,000 km and at the same time do all the science "near Jool" and "store" it in the science tools because the lab is still full of data. Then I circularize at the apoapsis and process the data from the tools one by one. When I'm about to run out of data to process, I dive into Pol's SoI (which is a piece of cake compared to basically anything) and do all the tricks again.

It gives me, like, over 9k of science, literally. And I don't even have any advanced tools like seismic scanner on my ship. And I don't land anywhere outside of Kerbin's SoI.

It's madness. Compared to this, the old trick with "money to science strategy" from 0.90 seems totally not OP.

[Red Iron Crown]

There's no obligation to stop however. But there had to be some kind of cap

Why? It just makes it a pain for both those who want to exploit the mechanic and those who use timewarp legitimately. IMO it would be better to just let the thing run without player intervention. The speedbump just feels artificial and contrived to me, better to have it balanced with other mechanics, even if only a return curve that nears zero given enough time.

[fairytalefox]

It's that step 2 If you're just min-maxing and timewarping, you're essentially doing the KSP equivalent of watching paint dry while a thousand other awesome things happen right outside your door. Not saying it's wrokg (it's a single player game), but don't be surprised if doing nothing but mashing a few keys ends up being boring

Well, one transfer to Jool takes about a year IIRC, and since I suck at multitasking I basically live in 100,000x warp when exploring it. The lab fills with science in about ten or fifteen days, compared to the transfer time it's nothing. I don't actually feel like I'm waiting.

Probably lab itself is OP. I'm ok with doubling or tripleing science with it, but now it just basically converts time into science. And time in the game is virtually infinite and free Yeah, it's boring and nearly ruins the game, but I just cannot walk away.

[spinomonkey]

Why? It just makes it a pain for both those who want to exploit the mechanic and those who use timewarp legitimately.

While at the same time you'd be upsetting the push for more 'realistic' gameplay among players. No, I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect answer for everyone. But there must be a middle ground we can all come together on?

[Randazzo]

Man, I was like you until I tried that. It's not "some", it's literally "click here to win". 500 science every minute. Virtually for free. Virtually unlimited. I'm bored as heck and I just can't stop. It's better than ice cream, believe you me, I've tried both.

Mine only generate 1 science per day. I must be doing something wrong.

[RoverDude]

The max rate is about 12 science per day. And by the time you can max that (five star scientists, etc.) you probably don't need much science, other than for science to funds conversion to fund larger projects

[Scotius]

Yep, it's pretty much how i play I farm Kerbin system for Science until i unlock whole tree (or at least nuclear engines) - when i reach that goal i set a strategy that takes 99% of incoming Science points and converts them into kash. This way i have nice influx of money to pay for my massive interplanetary motherships and orbital bases in unusual places (i'm looking at you, Moho )

[Kuu Lightwing]

Uh, I don't know, I really don't feel like farming that way for science. It's actually not too different from biome hopping on Mun or Minmus. I'm not entirely sure, but I feel like you can unlock the entire tech tree doing Mun and Minmus hopping, because there are some insane amount of biomes on Mun... so that's not that different. But new lab (well, and a contract too) was the reason why I built this beauty and actually put some kerbals inside!

[Streetwind]

Why? It just makes it a pain for both those who want to exploit the mechanic and those who use timewarp legitimately. IMO it would be better to just let the thing run without player intervention. The speedbump just feels artificial and contrived to me, better to have it balanced with other mechanics, even if only a return curve that nears zero given enough time.

It already has a return curve that nears zero given enough time: the science rate per day depends on the amount of data present, and the less there is, the slower it goes. But how does that solve your disappointment with the mechanic? It only causes the player to, again, feel like they must stop timewarp in order to refill data so they can get the maximum benefit. It's 100% identical to having to stop timewarp in order to transmit.

Basically, any mechanic you give the player to use that will result in extra science will also result in the motivation to stop timewarp. The only way you can prevent this is to make the MPL a instant-result affair. You launch it to a destination, load data, and push a button to receive science. In other words, you make the MPL just another normal science experiment like the Science Jr. materials bay and other similar parts.

Except, oh wait, you still have to drop out of timewarp to use it, because at some point it will arrive at its mission destination and will require you to actually press the button. What an intolerable speed bump for your other mission!

...okay, that was way overdramatized I apologize. But the thing is - the MPL as it is now is no more and no less a speed bump than any other science collecting mission you fly in parallel. Perhaps you don't like flying missions in parallel, and that's perfectly fine. You don't actually have to use the MPL. There is still an unlimited amount of science available in KSP without it. And even without using any of the unlimited science options, of which there are multiple even without the MPL, there is so much science just from going to planets and moons with normal science experiments that you can unlock the whole tech tree at least eight times over. Might be even more than that, I've never managed to collect it all.

So there is no reason you have to use the MPL if it gets in the way of your Eeloo mission timewarp. Or even better: you can use the MPL, but there's no need to stop your timewarp for it. Just check it after the timewarp is done. You could have gotten more science faster if you had stopped to manage it, but who cares? It doesn't give you anything you can't have in unlimited quantities elsewhere. The feeling that you need to stop for it is nothing but a self-imposed compulsion that you need to maximize everything. It has nothing to do with the game itself, or the MPL.

It adds nothing you don't already have - except an option for those who like it.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Streetwind

[SpeedDaemon]

What would make the labs a bit more interesting is if you weren't able to transmit all of the science you generate. Right now AFAIK, it's a 1 data = 5 science conversion, all of which you can just spend some ec to transmit from anywhere. What if those 5 science points were split, so 1 was transmittable by radio, and 2 went into each of the Kerbals' heads that were manning the science lab. Kerbal brains would have unlimited capacity, but the only way to get the science would be to return them to KSC, and "transfer to R&D," at which point they're taken permanently off of flight status, and put to work in your science facility, and their science is added to your pool.

Since you can still transmit/recover the experiments that you process in the lab, you can still about double your science just by radioing it in, but getting the rest would require a bit more effort, and some hard choices.

[arkie87]

Recently I've got a ship with a lab and some science tools to the Jool's SOI. I admit it was kinda challenging and quite interesting, no complains here. And then...

1. Fill the lab with science data.

2. Process the data while fast forwarding.

3. Transmit science.

4. If there's not enough free space in the lab, go to step 2.

5. Go to step 1.

I'd say, it's more like a babysitting simulator than a space sim. Not challenging, not even difficult. Just tedious. Click-click-click-wait-click-click-click-wait, repeat until you win.

Is it just me or?..

I agree, thats what i do. except if you dont have enouhg batteries, you have to warp at only 10,000x....

I'd rather the labs give you 100% science, as if you recovered the experiment itself.

[Red Iron Crown]

It adds nothing you don't already have - except an option for those who like it.

You miss the point, Streetwind. I want to use it to generate science over time, I just find it tedious to do so because of the (deliberate, artificial) speedbumps that add no gameplay value. It's feedback about a new game feature, the advice "don't use it if you don't like it" is as unhelpful as ever.

[fairytalefox]

The max rate is about 12 science per day.

I play with 24hr days, so it's about 48 science per day for me. As I said, 10 to 15 days to fill all the capacity. It doesn't make Jool missions much longer (in terms of in-game time), they already last for years each.

[Randazzo]

I'm not really a fan of the "speedbump" mechanic requiring manual intervention to prevent timewarp abuse. I get what they're trying to do, but it penalizes legitimate timewarp use, e.g. the player has to stop every so often during a long transfer to transmit the data, it's just tedious.

Time-based mechanics should be balanced with other time-based mechanics IMO, whether it's life support or ongoing costs or whatever.

This was just starting to bug me last night. I've got a probe en route to Jool (with a 3.5 year flight time..) and two manned vessels awaiting return window from Duna. I had to stop warping twice to switch to the lab, transmit science and wait for it to finish.

Perhaps an option to automatically transmit science at a certain threshold? Should there be a penalty of some sort for automation? Would that mechanic even be any fun? I'm torn. I can see the need for it's current mechanic but it's definitely going to start getting bothersome now.

[Laie]

Would it be acceptable to do away with the long tail? That is, data would be converted at a fixed speed? You'd still have to look after it every now and then (1), but there would be no incentive to keep it near 100% full. Also offer a hook to the timewarp-to feature and the player can set up a lab and not worry about it until it's time.

(1) if I got it right, the best possible crew could run a fully-stocked lab for 200 days; the worst crew would need like five years.

[KerbMav]

Which I think is how it should be...at least for the existing tech tree. It really makes me sad their aren't any really awesome parts locked away behind 5000 science barriers. The existing tech tree is pretty much just current technology. It would be cool if after you unlocked it you could start opening up future tech to play with.

I somehow expected the Nukes to be at the top of the tree, but I got surprised.

If it is not future tech, than it should at least be the highest advanced tech up there.

(Equally I miss some basic techs lower in the tech tree, the feeble small rover wheels, rover body and external seats for starters.

That was pretty much the intent. It kicks in right about the time folks start getting tired of grinding biomes.

Depends on how you define tedious. It definitely is if you feel obligated to timewarp to each transmisison. Same way you can exploit resources by mining on the launchpad and recovering for the (small) value of Ore.

Granted, we could unlock the entire stock tree before leaving Minmus anyway. But then, as someone else noted, unlocking the tech tree is not the game. It's just the point at which the real game begins.

There's no obligation to stop however. But there had to be some kind of cap

You still have to grind the biomes for more experiments to feed into the lab, the fact that you can reuse "empty" experiments in the lab does not change that. Although a player willing to double the experiments from the start and storing a copy in orbit until the first science station is built might get around that one.

(Note to self for next relaunch with reduced science gain.)

There's no obligation to stop however. But there had to be some kind of cap

I'm not really a fan of the "speedbump" mechanic requiring manual intervention to prevent timewarp abuse. I get what they're trying to do, but it penalizes legitimate timewarp use, e.g. the player has to stop every so often during a long transfer to transmit the data, it's just tedious.

I want to use it to generate science over time, I just find it tedious to do so because of the (deliberate, artificial) speedbumps that add no gameplay value.

@RIC: Would a larger/uncapped ability to store data and science change this in your opinion?

@RoverDude: You said the rate was capped at 12, is this inherent or just the mathmatical maximum of fully ranked scientists sitting on a lab full of 500 data points? If it is not inherent, could the conversion rate please be capped at 12 or any other rate and the storage limit of the lab made available to modding?

[Maolagin]

You can do even sooner. Stick 2 command pods, horizontal, a lab Jr inbetween. Fit some Goo on the ends, and other science on the side of the pods. Some fixed solar panels (or you won't go very far). To go faster, add some tiny reaction wheels. Fill a scientist and any other kerbal, then ROLL ! Hopefully, Kerbal have a strong stomach...

I got a bit more than 300 with thermometer and surface sample unlocked.

You must take a very different approach to the tech tree than I did, I unlocked the basic jet and fixed landing gear WAAAY before solar panels.

[Red Iron Crown]

@RIC: Would a larger/uncapped ability to store data and science change this in your opinion?

Very much so. I want the lab to keep producing under timewarp without restriction. Whether that's by automatically transmitting or uncapped storage doesn't matter, I just don't want to be penalized for using timewarp (and giving up science that would have been generated is a penalty). We have timewarp for legitimate reasons, there should not be a penalty for using it.

[KerbMav]

Very much so. I want the lab to keep producing under timewarp without restriction. Whether that's by automatically transmitting or uncapped storage doesn't matter, I just don't want to be penalized for using timewarp (and giving up science that would have been generated is a penalty). We have timewarp for legitimate reasons, there should not be a penalty for using it.

The equivalent of a full harddrive ...

Maybe it is really time for a new tech-feature:

Combined with my all time non-favorite quirk of "old"/low-tech-tree probe cores becoming obsolete instead of adding more of the pilot functions to them as we unlock the newer probe cores (that have these as of now), newer labs might come with higher capacity for data/science?

(Problem might be that already launched parts would behave differently from newly launched ones?)

[RoverDude]

The 12 per day is just math. By the way - tons of config options are exposed so modders or folks who are comfy with comfig editing can tweak it to suit their needs.

The periodic transmission is in there for two reasons. First, it encourages folks to visit their science bases once in a while. Second, it discourages people from just putting the lab on warp to reap the max 2500 you would get from the 500 data cap.

[Warzouz]

I don't have the MPL yet. I've read it "consumes" the experiments to create more science points.

For example, I get to Minmus, recover un surface sample, get back to my MPL un Minmus orbit. I "process the experiment" to get points over time until it fades (?)

But what about my experiment in the R&D archives ? Is it visible ? Can I take again this experiment on Minmus surface (same biome) ?

Thx

[Laie]

You still have to grind the biomes for more experiments to feed into the lab, the fact that you can reuse "empty" experiments in the lab does not change that.

Space low/high around kerbin, then space high/low around the Mun will be more than enough for a first load of 500 points. And that's just with Goo / Science Jr. / Thermometer. Surface data from any single Munar biome will probably be good for two loads. I don't know if you can re-use the same dataset again and again, but given how long 500 points last even with five-star scientists, I expect that the missions one does anyway will easily provide all your data needs. So the extra grind is limited to rendezvous and transferring some science to the lab.

[Streetwind]

I don't have the MPL yet. I've read it "consumes" the experiments to create more science points.

For example, I get to Minmus, recover un surface sample, get back to my MPL un Minmus orbit. I "process the experiment" to get points over time until it fades (?)

But what about my experiment in the R&D archives ? Is it visible ? Can I take again this experiment on Minmus surface (same biome) ?

Thx

This thread has all of the answers:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/117461-New-Mobile-Processing-Lab-mechanics

[Kuu Lightwing]

For example, I get to Minmus, recover un surface sample, get back to my MPL un Minmus orbit. I "process the experiment" to get points over time until it fades (?)

You can process the experiment in lab and recover it after that. Processing requires a little amount of time and some power. After that you get "Data" in the lab which can be turned into science at some slow rate.

Space low/high around kerbin, then space high/low around the Mun will be more than enough for a first load of 500 points. And that's just with Goo / Science Jr. / Thermometer. Surface data from any single Munar biome will probably be good for two loads. I don't know if you can re-use the same dataset again and again, but given how long 500 points last even with five-star scientists, I expect that the missions one does anyway will easily provide all your data needs. So the extra grind is limited to rendezvous and transferring some science to the lab.

And you also have EVA over <biome>. I stuffed my Mun Research Station with experiments without even landing (Although I did land after that, but for a different purpose)

Edited May 5, 2015 by Kuu Lightwing