Complete noob here - a few questions

[savior]

Hi all,

I am a complete noob. I am trying to do one of the first missions, take a crew report at 17.000m above a certain area.

1 - Yesterday I was struggling because my rocket would not turn anywhere...then i realized i probably had put a scientist as crew, could that be the reason ? If i have only a scientist on board rocket has no control wahtsoever ?

2 - If that was the reason, how do i actually reach that point and at that height ? I clicked on the map the point and then "navigate here". Activated "T" key, but there is no option to navigate anywhere. Maybe because of previous point (no pilot) ?

Also, how to reach that part AT THAT HEIGHT could be a problem maybe.

3 - How do you detach only one part from the rockets while building ? Sometimes it gets frustrating and you have to do the whole rocket again.

Thank you if you can help.

A slightly frustrated kelbar

Edited May 11, 2015 by savior

[FancyMouse]

1. They can still control, but they can't turn on SAS etc. If you cannot control completely, it's something else.

2. It will show up in your NavBall. You don't see it right away because it's on the other side of the ball. Using T key should not matter.

The contract used to be easy when you can build basic aircraft. Now with the new aero, basic aircraft cannot reach 10km easily, but Squad probably forgot to change the parameter for the contracts... You can of course use rockets, but I think that's harder (and I haven't done it using rockets).

3. Detach the part below it, detach the part you want to detach, then reattch the rest.

[DeMatt]

1 - Yesterday I was struggling because my rocket would not turn anywhere...then i realized i probably had put a scientist as crew, could that be the reason ? If i have only a scientist on board rocket has no control wahtsoever ?

No, your controls will respond whether your crew has a pilot or just scientists/engineers. What pilots do is let you turn on Stability Assist with the T key; then they'll automatically stabilize the ship.

More likely you just don't have enough control authority. The basic Mk1 capsule has a weak set of reaction wheels; if you want to fly in atmosphere, you'll want steerable fins like the AV-R8 Winglets.

2 - If that was the reason, how do i actually reach that point and at that height ? I clicked on the map the point and then "navigate here". Activated "T" key, but there is no option to navigate anywhere. Maybe because of previous point (no pilot) ?

Also, how to reach that part AT THAT HEIGHT could be a problem maybe.

Generally such contracts are more easily fulfilled using airplanes instead of rockets. Clicking on the map point and choosing "Activate Navigation" merely adds an icon to the navball - point your rocket at the icon to go to it.

Note that the T key is not an autopilot. Activating Stability Assist (the aforementioned T key) only tries to keep the rocket pointed in the same direction.

3 - How do you detach only one part from the rockets while building ? Sometimes it gets frustrating and you have to do the whole rocket again.

The parts of a rocket are organized in a "tree" pattern. There is one "root" or "parent" part, the one you select first. Then "branch" or "child" parts get attached to it. And more "child" parts get attached to the first group. And so on and so forth.

You can click on and therefore detach any part from the rocket at any time. However, any "child" parts of that part will be detached with it. If you want to remove just that part, and e.g. replace it, then you need to detach its "child" parts first. You can drop the "child" parts elsewhere in the VAB while you work on the main rocket; they will turn transparent, and you can later pick them up and reattach them.

[Streetwind]

Welcome to the forums!

If you cannot steer your craft, it may be because you have no, or not enough, control authority (which is a fancy word for saying "something that steers"). There are four principal ways to gain more control authority:

1.) Reaction wheels - the magic sauce that makes your basic command pod twist and turn and roll at the push of a button. Reaction wheels have a certain strength, and the heavier your rocket gets, the less affected it will be from the same reaction wheel. It might be that your rocket is so large that the built-in reaction wheel in your command pod is no longer sufficient until you drop a stage or two. There are dedicated reaction wheel parts you can add to your ship.

2.) Engine thrust vectoring - the ability of an engine to swivel its nozzle around to steer. How well each engine does this depends on how much thrust it creates, and on how big the angle is in which it can tilt. The latter one is the thing called "gimbal" that you will find in some engines' stats. Some engines do not have any gimbal at all, and thus cannot steer using thrust vectoring.

3.) Atmospheric guidance - the way planes steer by means of moving control surfaces (ailerons, elevators, canards...). Stops being useful when you get above maybe 20km. At the same time, fixed wings or fins can make your rocket more stable, inhibiting your ability to steer it. In some cases this is useful, but in other cases, not so much.

4.) Reaction control systems - or short: RCS. These are little multidirectional thrusters your attach to your ship, which run on monopropellant. You only unlock those a little later in the tech tree, I believe. They're not fully efficient inside an atmosphere and are more for in-space use, especially for rendezvous and docking.

Armed with this knowledge, you should be able to find out why your rocket is having issues.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Streetwind

[uglyduckling81]

You should watch this series of Tutorials. Scott Manley is widely regarded as the ultimate player and he is also very good at teaching.

He has been releasing this new and updated Tutorial series for the 1.0 release.

Every player of KSP has almost certainly watched Scott Manley's older tutorial videos.

This is the place to start.

[savior]

Thanks a lot for the replies!!

Unfortunately i cannot build planes yet, so I was trying to do it with a rocket and that does not sound so simple indeed. Impossible for a noob like me.

I have watched the first tutorials by Scott Manley, up to the orbiting one, but this mission was skipped.

I hope it is like DeMatt Said , that i need the AV-R8 Winglets. I was using the most basic ones and i thought those were the ones that helped steering, while the AV-R8 being fixed fins.

StreetWind, do i understand correctly that while i am below 10.000 meters it is almost impossible to turn the rocket with the basic "fins " ? I am using a 6-8 liquid fuel tanks rocket, 15-17 tons of weight more or less.

I will try again tonight, but i think for that mission i really need a plane.

[FancyMouse]

Fins are not control surfaces. It doesn't respond to your control. To control you need reaction wheels, gimbaled engine, or control surfaces. For rockets you need the first two.

[Northlight]

Fins are not control surfaces. It doesn't respond to your control. To control you need reaction wheels, gimbaled engine, or control surfaces. For rockets you need the first two.

However, while fins can't control (steer) your rocket, they will help with stability.

[stibbons]

When you say 17000 metres, do you mean above that? Because you can easily fulfil that contract by being in orbit when you go over that spot.

[Streetwind]

StreetWind, do i understand correctly that while i am below 10.000 meters it is almost impossible to turn the rocket with the basic "fins " ? I am using a 6-8 liquid fuel tanks rocket, 15-17 tons of weight more or less.

Yes, it'll be extremely hard to steer.

The reason for that is a combination of multiple factors: you're probably using the Reliant engine that cannot perform thrust vectoring because it has no gimbal; the basic fins stabilize your rocket and make it harder to steer, because they are fixed; and with over 15 tons of rocket to move, the reaction wheels in the command pod will be struggling. In space this wouldn't be a problem, but as long as you are in the atmosphere, you need to fight against the atmosphere to turn.

...until you turn too far, at which point you'll have to fight against the atmosphere to stop turning. Which is usually impossible and ends with your rocket flipping upside down and experiencing a RUD (rapid unplanned disassembly)

The AV-R8 winglets are great because they let you have the best of two worlds: they stabilize the rocket when you are not trying to steer and keep it from flipping. But at the same time when you do want to steer, they help you do that. For lower atmosphere operation (18km and under), they are fantastic.

Just don't overdo it - three or four fins are enough for 99% of all rockets. Going with six or eight will make you way too stable.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Streetwind

[Warzouz]

When you say 17000 metres, do you mean above that? Because you can easily fulfil that contract by being in orbit when you go over that spot.

Well, those mission usualy tell you to go at a precise location. The "above" missions usually have to be made with plane equiped with Tubojets (which come mi-game). The "Below" missions can be fulfilled with basic jet engines.

Scott Manley built a very cheap and simple plane which is very stable and easy to fly. It can be expanded easily for science and/or range.

[savior]

When you say 17000 metres, do you mean above that? Because you can easily fulfil that contract by being in orbit when you go over that spot.

I am quite sure it says "below that height" , but i am not home to check..

[stibbons]

Well, those mission usualy tell you to go at a precise location. The "above" missions usually have to be made with plane equiped with Tubojets (which come mi-game). The "Below" missions can be fulfilled with basic jet engines.

Sure, but there's a reasonable amount of leeway in the location. The "above" missions can easily be done with a pod in a polar orbit, and the "below" ones were trivial with a suborbital rocket in 0.90; I haven't tried in 1.0.x, but intend to apply the same technique when (ok, if) I take up survey missions on the other side of Kerbin.

I won't deny rocket launches can easily cost more than planes, but I for one am OK with that in a career game that tends to be bottlenecked around gathering science anyway.

[tomf]

I solved my first contract for gethering data above 15,000 bt strapping a couple of fleas to my plane. Fly to near the location on basic jets, point the aircraft as vertical as possible in the right direction and light the blue touch paper.

[savior]

Yes, it'll be extremely hard to steer.

The reason for that is a combination of multiple factors: you're probably using the Reliant engine that cannot perform thrust vectoring because it has no gimbal; the basic fins stabilize your rocket and make it harder to steer, because they are fixed; and with over 15 tons of rocket to move, the reaction wheels in the command pod will be struggling. In space this wouldn't be a problem, but as long as you are in the atmosphere, you need to fight against the atmosphere to turn.

...until you turn too far, at which point you'll have to fight against the atmosphere to stop turning. Which is usually impossible and ends with your rocket flipping upside down and experiencing a RUD (rapid unplanned disassembly)

The AV-R8 winglets are great because they let you have the best of two worlds: they stabilize the rocket when you are not trying to steer and keep it from flipping. But at the same time when you do want to steer, they help you do that. For lower atmosphere operation (18km and under), they are fantastic.

Just don't overdo it - three or four fins are enough for 99% of all rockets. Going with six or eight will make you way too stable.

Exactly, I am using the engine without gimbal whatever , I still have the most basicest stuff .

Many thanks, this clarifies a lot of things. I think i put 4 of those fins and they were too many indeed.

I will try again with these knowledge, but i am quite sure an airplane is needed for that kind of mission, that i still cannot build.

Also, if i try to steer down, to stay below 17km, the rocket starts pointing downwards without hope of resuming the ascension, then it crashes.

I did not experience RUD yet, and i hope i won't !

Such a helpful community here on kerbal, really fantastic!

Edited May 11, 2015 by savior

[mrklaw]

I was stuck on these for a while - the basic jet engine won't get me anywhere near high enough, and popping rockets on was messing with my balance. I ended up doing one almost by accident. The contract was still sitting in my active list when I was coming down from an orbit around Kerbin. The trajectory had me coming in over the zone and 'entering blah blah zone' popped up, so I did a quick crew report and completed the contract.

So for now at least (until I unlock turbofans or get better at planes), I'm going to do those by being in orbit and then adjusting so I come in over the zone and do a report. I don't think I got that message when I was in orbit though - my guess is you'd have to be 'in flight' and not 'in space'

[savior]

Wow, lucky you!!

how do i build planes? they are not in Scott's tutorials.

I guess i just need to research the appropriate science tree and use the other hangar, right ?

[Streetwind]

Planes are not so different from rockets, with the exception that you need wings and control surfaces. And, the bane of many a new player, properly attached and aligned landing gear

For all further details, Keptin's outstanding tutorial will explain everything a hundredfold better than I ever could. Just keep in mind: the tutorial isn't updated to the new aerodynamics system yet. Which means you'll see a few references to the ways in which the KSP aero system is dumb. But now in 1.0 this no longer applies and you can just ignore those parts.

[savior]

Many, many thanks!!! for giving some more homework

I have printed it, will study tonight

Edited May 11, 2015 by savior

[savior]

I have checked, the mission is to take a crew report ABOVE 17.000 metres.

But i still cannot do it. I click the marker in the map and "navigate here", i point to the symbol in the bottom wheel, but as soon as i go too much horizontally, i loose control and start twisting and going back towards the ground before even finishing the fuel. At that point i cannot recover the stability (despite the new fins i got, those that can orientate) and the only thing i can do is to detach the still half-full fuel tanks or I crash even faster...

I think i will do when i am in orbit. I was struggling getting there because of the 18 tons limit but i just discovered that i needed to upgrade the launch bay.

Now with 180 tons i can build a proper rocket, get into orbit and then try to pass above that point, hopefully i will manage.

By the way, why when i activate the sas, the icons to go to proapsis etc do not appear like they did in the tutorial ? Do i need some specific equipment to make them appear ?

Edited May 12, 2015 by savior

[DeMatt]

I have checked, the mission is to take a crew report ABOVE 17.000 metres.

But i still cannot do it. I click the marker in the map and "navigate here", i point to the symbol in the bottom wheel, but as soon as i go too much horizontally, i loose control and start twisting and going back towards the ground before even finishing the fuel. At that point i cannot recover the stability (despite the new fins i got, those that can orientate) and the only thing i can do is to detach the still half-full fuel tanks or I crash even faster...

I think i will do when i am in orbit. I was struggling getting there because of the 18 tons limit but i just discovered that i needed to upgrade the launch bay.

Now with 180 tons i can build a proper rocket, get into orbit and then try to pass above that point, hopefully i will manage.

Keep in mind that you don't have to do a contract immediately. You can let the contract sit in your backlog while you go do other things.

By the way, why when i activate the sas, the icons to go to proapsis etc do not appear like they did in the tutorial ? Do i need some specific equipment to make them appear ?

Those icons become available when you have a pilot with the experience necessary to use them. A level 0 pilot (like the ones you start the game with) only knows how to keep the rocket from spinning, while a level 3 pilot can point the rocket in several important directions - chosen with those icons.

[savior]

Thanks, problem with contracs is that i can have only 2 maximum active and i don't want to withdraw anyone. I would like to take the ones where you are asked to test some engines but at the moment i am stuck with 2 out of 2 contracts. I think i will have to upgrade also the mission centre.

Thanks for that regarding the pilot experience, i thought it was me who was doing something wrong.

[Warzouz]

Never trust ads .

Don' forget you can wait to do contracts. Don't hesitate to upgrade mission control (recommended to get manover nodes) to get more contracts.

[savior]

Cool, thanks, you anticipated my next question that I would have asked, i thought that the manuver nodes were on by default.

I am studying the wiki, including what the buildings upgrades do, because these things are not explained in Scott's videos.

[savior]

YEEEESSS I managed to get into orbit finally! With the 18 Tons limit it was (almost?) impossible, at least for me. Got into orbit, (after a few attempts and a few beers ) then i corrected the orbit to pass above the area where i had to take the crew report. So i did also that contract. Cool!

It was not easy to set the orbit to pass exactly above that particular point, because of camera angles, but luckily i managed just switching/tilting camera and trying to make it as closer as possible.

Or was there some automatic procedure to make it more precise ? Like clicking on the point -> navigate here and mix this with the orbit route ? Maybe it would be useful to know for the future if there is such a procedure, in case i need to pass above an exact point, which i think will happen often