Help with satellite contracts?

[ddenis]

I've been gradually leaning toward regex views, on the question: I think extended numbers information could be hidden behind various "advanced" buttons, (and in career mode: Tracking and R&D upgrades) so that it doesn't bury noobs under a "complicated mess of windows and words that will frighten and startle." I think that quote excerpt is what worries Squad. Adding the option into stock, to display extended info, would definitely appeal to more experienced players.

The early resistance on this question is eroding. dV info was delayed, not canceled outright. In my view, the culture of continuous updates Squad is entering makes it nearly inevitable that more UI work will be done, and more info provided in stock.

SQUAD already doesn't explains a lot of things or does it badly. E.g. A popular problem with satellite launch when one has inclination +180 degrees from required... why not to show a message to a user with simple text "You're going the wrong direction, turn around" when Ap and Pe are correct... but no... The user has to go to the forum and ask here, because the game fails to point this mistake.

Edited May 13, 2015 by ddenis

[sal_vager]

There's dots moving on the orbit in the direction you need to go...

[ddenis]

There's dots moving on the orbit in the direction you need to go...

What if a person has a bad sight and can't distinguish dots?

The contract window doesn't even have criteria marks as fulfilled when each of them is done, ok, it has for bigger parts, but the orbit parameters should have the same indication.

P.S. And it's a common sense, if a user of your software doing something wrong, you have to tell him about that, so he or she can concentrate on fun things.

Edited May 13, 2015 by ddenis

[sal_vager]

They already have a visual indication, and the inclination shown on the contract is the direction of the orbit.

Edited May 13, 2015 by sal_vager

[ddenis]

...the inclination shown on the contract is the direction of the orbit.

With what number I can compare the number shown in the contract?

Is the current inclination shown anywhere?

- - - Updated - - -

If such a simple contract requires a tutorial then the game fails in being user friendly. (Not an in game tutorial)

[OscarWilde]

What if a person has a bad sight and can't distinguish dots?

The contract window doesn't even have criteria marks as fulfilled when each of them is done, ok, it has for bigger parts, but the orbit parameters should have the same indication.

P.S. And it's a common sense, if a user of your software doing something wrong, you have to tell him about that, so he or she can concentrate on fun things.

I hate when a game/program is blamed for a faulty user... NO.. ABSOLUTELY NO... the worst thing in 95% of games now is how they hold your bloody hand and walk you around the whole time (*cough* CoD *cough*). The best part of this game was the learning curve! I spent a LOT of time online reading about the science of orbiting and the physics behind the game and in the end I LEARNED SOMETHING (a lot actually...) If it had just "told me what I was doing wrong, and how to fix it" I would have gotten bored a long time ago.

There is a tutorial and scenario section in the game now, go play those and read up on the wiki! Don't blame the game because it doesn't hold your hand. If you accidentally put a satellite in the wrong direction, TRY AGAIN! It's what makes the game fun!

[ddenis]

I hate when a game/program is blamed for a faulty user... NO.. ABSOLUTELY NO... the worst thing in 95% of games now is how they hold your bloody hand and walk you around the whole time (*cough* CoD *cough*). The best part of this game was the learning curve! I spent a LOT of time online reading about the science of orbiting and the physics behind the game and in the end I LEARNED SOMETHING (a lot actually...) If it had just "told me what I was doing wrong, and how to fix it" I would have gotten bored a long time ago.

There is a tutorial and scenario section in the game now, go play those and read up on the wiki! Don't blame the game because it doesn't hold your hand. If you accidentally put a satellite in the wrong direction, TRY AGAIN! It's what makes the game fun!

The best part of the game is when I'm playing, not when I'm trying to solve some game problem searching on the internet.

"put a satellite in the wrong direction" there is a difference between doing the same stupid things again and again and did it once, see what says measurements and adjust my actions accordingly to eliminate errors.

Edited May 13, 2015 by ddenis

[sal_vager]

With what number I can compare the number shown in the contract?

Is the current inclination shown anywhere?

- - - Updated - - -

If such a simple contract requires a tutorial then the game fails in being user friendly. (Not an in game tutorial)

You can compare your own orbit visually with the orbit superimposed on the screen, you don't even need numbers, but the nodes also show you how far off you are, if you are 180 degrees off, you're backwards.

And I cannot believe anyone could possibly use the existence of a tutorial as proof that the contract is somehow too hard, there are tutorials on the internet on how to shut down Windows, does this mean that Windows is too hard to shut down, or that a small number of users find the concept hard to grasp?

[ddenis]

You can compare your own orbit visually with the orbit superimposed on the screen, you don't even need numbers, but the nodes also show you how far off you are, if you are 180 degrees off, you're backwards.

And I cannot believe anyone could possibly use the existence of a tutorial as proof that the contract is somehow too hard, there are tutorials on the internet on how to shut down Windows, does this mean that Windows is too hard to shut down, or that a small number of users find the concept hard to grasp?

I didn't say that contract is hard, I said that the game fails to give to user basic information about his mistakes. At the same time it gives a number which cannot be applied anywhere within the stock game UI.

The difference with that link on the turning of PC is that... That this information available in the Windows help without searching on the internet, just press F1 and type "shut down", but KSP fails to explain this with in game tips.

[r_rolo1]

And I cannot believe anyone could possibly use the existence of a tutorial as proof that the contract is somehow too hard, there are tutorials on the internet on how to shut down Windows, does this mean that Windows is too hard to shut down, or that a small number of users find the concept hard to grasp?

Well, I did knew one person a long time ago ( early 90's ) that actually didn't knew how to shutdown a computer in spite of knowing how to start one I could had a use for that link at the time

That said, the point that started that discussion IMHO is valid. The direction of rotation should be one of the items in the contract window ... it is just one of the issues with the contract window intel ( or better said, lack of it at times ).

[sal_vager]

The information is there, but with anything you need to learn to use it, it's not hard just as turning off a computer is not hard.

This thread is now too far off topic, the topic is the review by Rock, Paper, Shotgun, not poor eyesight and lack of knowledge of the satellite contract.

Please stay on topic from here on.

[basic.syntax]

What if a person has a bad sight and can't distinguish dots?

The moving dots on the orbit line... are very small. They could be made larger. I've found myself squinting and staring at times.

If you accidentally put a satellite in the wrong direction, TRY AGAIN! It's what makes the game fun!

At first, its very frustrating. Some players handle "why isn't this working?" frustration better than others. Once you figure out the problem, then hopefully, an "Aha!" moment occurs, followed by "I know I'll be able to do this the right way, next time." Edited May 13, 2015 by basic.syntax

[sal_vager]

Off-topic posts moved.

[Jimbo Jambo]

This did trip me up the first time I took a polar orbit contract. The dots are actually pretty small, and while I did notice them, I thought they were just a weird visual artifact. Only after a few frustrating minutes of tweaking and refining my orbit did I realize the direction mattered and I just needed to flip it.

You're never going to be able to make it clear to 100% of the people, but that doesn't automatically mean trying to improve it is wasted effort. I would bet that even a simple change like making the dots slightly larger or replacing them with arrows would greatly reduce the confusion among inexperienced players.

[Snark]

I think it boils down to the distinction between fun-hard and not-fun-hard.

It's fun when the difficulty is a natural outgrowth of the physics. Why does this rocket flip? Why can't this spaceplane get to orbit? It's hard but fair, there's no feeling of arbitrariness to it. It's what people play KSP for.

What's not fun is when the game wants something and you don't know what it wants. That's the trick to good UI design. I think KSP does pretty well in general, but it does have some rough edges. The issue with orbit direction in contracts is one such, IMHO.

To Squad's credit, though, they have a pretty good track record of incremental improvements. Remember when the navball only had prograde / retrograde markers?

[MoridinUK]

Well I've jsut messed my game up completly. I built a ship to complete a scansat mission, ap and pe of 499km ish. I have only staypukic core so built this huge space ship (i've not unlocked any robocorp parts yet) that Jeb could fly up, and thus leave the probe in place and come back. I figured burn the ap up to the right height on ascent, then correct pe at ap with the core as I'd only have to burn forwards... Well it went fine, except my balanced probe spun for some reason... opps. and then I noticed that the orbit needed to be polar, but it never even crossed over the ksc... sigh... so I needed another 2000 dv or more to get it in place... I think I need to time my launch better! lol... wait till ksc is under the desired orbit... sigh...

The reason this has totally messed me up is I spent out of money impriving the launch pad and the vab to handle more than 30 parts...