Must I give up on KSP? I do not want it :(

[NikkyD]

I just tried it, in career mode.

Stage 3 : Parachute + mk1 capsule + separator

Stage 2: 8 FLT100 tanks + LVT45 + separator

Stage 1: 1 BACC thumper

Rocket is a bit too long for unimproved lauchpad it seems, either you cheat by offsetting the lowest separator a bit upward into the engine, works like a charm. Or you upgrade the launchpad.

Turn on SAS, max throttle, hit SPACE. Drop booster when empty, change to map. When AP at about 75 km, stop thrusting (hit x).

At about 65km turn your rocket to 0° right. Thrust up again. Make sure the AP doesnt run away, if it does, stop thrusting again and wait until at AP and continue with thrust.

Once PE is at 75, stop... you are in orbit!

You should have at least 10 units of fuel left, so turn the rocket around (retrograde) and thrust until fuel runs out.

Stage... and watch the capsule drop back into the atmosphere, open parachute at about 2 km...

recover vessel

So... RLY ?!

[Madrias]

On one hand, I can see how it can be more difficult to get stuff in orbit, but on the other hand, I've noticed once you learn to keep things under the sound barrier in the thick stuff, you do pretty good.

Heck, you can even fly some pretty crazy asymmetric airplanes. SSTO aircraft are now properly hard. SSTO rockets are a little easier, but also not exactly easy. SRB's no longer fling you 90% of the way to orbit at a million miles an hour. Atmospheric heating adds a reason to not go at insane speed without taking precautions.

All in all, 1.0.2 is different than 0.90. Is 1.0 harder? Yes. Would I like to see an easy-mode switch? Perhaps, but only if it comes with a warning on it that flat out says this is not the "officially recognized" atmosphere.

[Eric S]

to start im not sure what your on about when you say the redstone had larger control surfaces

http://imgur.com/DbRSDEr

http://imgur.com/Sq8P7D3

Ah, the AV-R8 winglet, I thought you meant the early tail fins which are much smaller and are still more than enough to keep the rocket stable. The early tail fins, however, weren't in 1.0.

As for the rocket you described (now that I correctly understand), it was also unflippable in my testing under 1.0 and 1.0.2, so I still can't reproduce this.

Edit: just updated to 1.02 and that rocket does not have any issues so perhaps it was an issue with the first version to come out, but i do not retract my point that the aero is not actually realistic as so many claim.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "many." Looking through this thread, the majority of pro-1.X aero posts couch the description with "more realistic" or "semi-realistic." Even early on in 1.0 devel, it was obvious that the devs weren't aiming at something even as realistic as pre-nuFAR FAR. It's realistic enough that nosecones help instead of hurt in most cases, tail fins will try to keep the craft prograde when properly placed, orientation of parts matter, and dense things have a faster terminal velocity than less dense items. That's a huge step forward in realism compared to old stock aero. Still, if you really care about realism, you install FAR. I haven't felt the need to do so post 1.0, unlike 0.90 and earlier.

[Tourist]

Serious, I am really think about it.

I am all for realism, I use mods to enhance that part of the game, but since 1.02 and the new aerodynamic model, I cant fly anything straight. It's like playing a new game, maybe it is, and maybe I need to (re)learn the game.

-snip-

Can anyone help me?

Thank you.

Hey Mate

Don't give up. Lots of experienced players are finding the new aero challenging. I also found my rockets flipped out a lot when I tried to do things the old way. I'm still learning the new aero too, but the key thing I've found is throttle management helps. I'm not across the science, as many on the forums are, but I found if I reduce throttle once the rocket starts reaching 200 throttle way back. You don't need to kill the rate of acceleration completely, but make you speed climb slower at least until your in the thinner atmosphere. Also have a really light touch on the controls. Inch it down to 45 degrees... doesn't seem to matter if your not their before 10,000.

Also there is tons of good advice around here about rocket design.

Keep trying!!

[little square dot]

I really dont understand how someone can NOT get into orbit. If you just fly straight up until you have an AP of 100km and at the AP you turn 90° and thrust... you will achieve orbit with somewhere between 4k and 5k dV.

You could do this in .90 and still can do it. If you dont turn inside the atmosphere, its still as simple as that?!

Right, but I think this misses the point, because it's a ridiculous way to achieve orbit. Thankfully, it's also unnecessary.

People will learn, and in the meantime some folks are bound to get frustrated...growing pains.

[Asharad]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. I haven't had any problems with any of the aero models.

[nimbim]

I am all for realism

[...]

With this in mind, I really prefer to get dumb, and play the 0.90 model of aerodynamics.

Find the mistake.

Seriously though, don't give up so easily. I've done everything there is to do in KSP with old aerodynamics and now half my rockets start flipping during ascent, can't aerobrake in Jool's atmosphere without dying etc. I can't remember having more fun with KSP than when I still had to learn stuff; didn't you enjoy getting your first Mun landing done after a bunch of failures? Just keep at it (or play Plants vs Zombies).

[helaeon]

Okay, one of the biggest problems I think for people used to old atmo is too much TWR and too much drag up front.

If you're moving a payload that is wide and flat (or unaerodynamic), keep your TWR between 1.2 and 1.4 until you clear about 10K, start your turn at about 8k and do it slowly. Don't move outside of your velocity vector. If you are starting to turn, flip, or otherwise find your rocket becoming unstable throttle down a little bit.

The lower atmosphere is still a little too soupy and that's causing some of the problems I think. In FAR on .90 I used to start my turn at about 1.5k and 150m/s, now I'm taking it slow in the low atmo and don't even contemplate turning until about 5k, and going way slower on that turn and keeping my speed low until I get up to about 20k

With this sort of thinking I'm making 75km-85km orbit with about 3800-4000 m/s DV.

[Azimech]

I feel the new aero model is still very easy compared to real life.

[Warzouz]

So I had my first encounter with a crazy wobbly launch today. Pretty much everything I have put up so far has been fine, and until now I had not really understood what the fuss was about. I decided I wanted to put a space station up as a single launch rather than sending it up a few bits at a time and constructing it in orbit.

The launch stage is a mainsail, and the upper stage is a poodle. Inside the equipment bay is a probe core and some batteries so that I can send it up unmanned.

...

This thing went crazy wobbling about when it hit around 8 km at around 160 m/s. The first thing I did was to disable all the reaction wheels, using only the winglets and the engine gimbal for control. This reduced the wobble a fair amount, and it did flip out a few times, but I managed to get it into orbit, though it was 5 degrees off and needed some re-positioning up there.

I then figured I'd attempt to make it more rigid, so I put a bunch of structural girders on radial decouplers and strutted up the main structure. That would sort out the wobbles, but not the aerodynamic problems. I figured the root cause of the aerodynamic problems was that those AV-R8 winglets were just not up to the job of keeping such a large rocket under control I therefore replaced them with Structural Wing A and Elevon 1 for control, to give it better stability. The result was this

...

The result was not pretty, but it went into orbit like a dream. I did my usual roll over 5 degrees at between 50 and 100 m/s, and fly it up with SAS off, controlling the ascent with the engine throttle.

In addition to the old KSP rules of "if it moves when it shouldn't, add more struts" and "if it doesn't move when it should, add more boosters", I think we need a new rule: "if it points the wrong way, add more fins"

I've the same problems, but I solved them in a different way : Joints Reinforcement Mod by Ferram4

The wobbling problem is very different from the aero problem.

The New Aero model need us to train to send rockets to orbit. Design and flight are different. Using one of them from 0.9 will result in flipping rockets. But as many explained, once you've understand how it works, it's quite easy. Note : bigger rockets are easier to fly than lighter ones. So to solve the Aero problem : just spend some time to try and learn how to do it. There are dozen of explainations here.

But the wobbling will wreck your flight or at least looking stupid an unrealistic (I bnever saw any rocket bend like this...). To silve that you need to add stupid contructions out of fairings (that make sens ?) to fix it. It's like fixing a bug.

I hated the new aero, now I love it (planes are coolerto fly)

But I still hate this stupid wobbling. At least wobbleing should be removed inside Fairing. As it's mass is high, it could auto include some massive struting.

[Johno]

Interesting, my experience is the reverse.

The new realistic flight model is SO much easier to handle.

I was previously a pretty terrible pilot; never mind landing spaceplanes from orbit, I was doing well to get them roughly into the area of the spaceport before popping the chutes and letting them float to the ground!

With 1.0.2, I'm ACTUALLY ABLE TO FLY.

Partly, I think, this is because I can now use the reflexes I've developed over years of using flight simulators (I used to have to countermand them).

[Murph]

Interesting, my experience is the reverse.

The new realistic flight model is SO much easier to handle.

I was previously a pretty terrible pilot; never mind landing spaceplanes from orbit, I was doing well to get them roughly into the area of the spaceport before popping the chutes and letting them float to the ground!

With 1.0.2, I'm ACTUALLY ABLE TO FLY.

Partly, I think, this is because I can now use the reflexes I've developed over years of using flight simulators (I used to have to countermand them).

Yeah, I'm much the same, but with experience on the stick of a real plane, including aerobatics. The old aero was horrible and I had to actively force myself to fly in an unnatural way. The new aero isn't perfect, but it's a vast improvement and now is at least vaguely matched to my experience of flying real aerobatic craft. Most of the problems I have now are due to my butt and ears not getting any physical inputs, which I've always found makes flying simulators much harder than the real thing.

All flight, rockets and planes is much improved and easier for me in 1.0.2, than in pre-1.0. Some changes are needed in approach to design and how you fly them, but it's really not difficult at all to learn the new way, then far better than it ever was before.

Let go of the past, embrace the future! Do your best to permanently erase "45 @ 10" from your memory.

[KSK]

I can fly my planes without SAS now. It still helps to have that auto-trim ability but that's all it feels like now, rather than something I absolutely need in order to make the plane flyable at all. Plus I can switch SAS on and fly at x4 physics warp without careering all over the sky.

As far as rockets go, I'm loving being able to fly proper gravity turns. Not dropping spent SRBs all over KSC makes me happy.

[Zzabur]

Interesting, my experience is the reverse.

The new realistic flight model is SO much easier to handle.

I was previously a pretty terrible pilot; never mind landing spaceplanes from orbit, I was doing well to get them roughly into the area of the spaceport before popping the chutes and letting them float to the ground!

With 1.0.2, I'm ACTUALLY ABLE TO FLY.

Same here, i couldn't make a decent SSTO since 0.14 lol. But since 1.0.2, i made them easily, without even any RAPIER engines. I find the new model more realistic and predictable, I don't understand people who say it's harder than before.

[rtxoff]

Looks like i flew my SSTOs wrong. Finally i managed to put an SSTO plane into orbit while still having 1000m/s dV left.

[John FX]

If you don't want realism then activate infinite fuel, go straight up until vacuum, then circularise.

It's really simple. And not realistic at all.

Oh, you want SOME realism?

Well now the discussion on how grey you like your grey starts.

[lajoswinkler]

I don't really understand the fuss about it. The more realism the better - unless realism means insanity, heavy calculus and pulling your hair. And it doesn't. KSP is still fun enough.

If your planes don't work because they look like they came from a Tim Burton's movie, then don't play KSP.

If your rockets explode during ascent because they overheat due to your 5 G acceleration, don't play KSP.

I had some minor adjustments with the way I fly things, but that's it.

[rtxoff]

I don't think it's about realism, it's about playability. Activating cheats kills the fun and is against playability.

Too much realism kills the fun and is also against playability. There are also other things that kill fun in games like grinding, too hard difficulty level and so on.

[lajoswinkler]

Yeah, there is a balance, but it's always better if it's shifted towards realism. KSP does exactly that.

[Korizan]

None of my rockets use fins so.....

Forget the fins you only need 1 of 3 parts (Small Inline Reaction Wheel / Advanced Inline Stabilizer / Advanced Reaction Wheel Module, Large ) Now just get one Mod Mechjeb

With some rockets the SAS is not even needed.

Mechjeb Assent guidance - pick and Altitude of 80 KM and select "Edit Ascent Path" under that :

Turn Start Altitude - 0.5 KM (that is right I start my gravity turn at 500 Meters)

Turn End Altitude - 60KM

Final Flight Angle - 0

Turn Shape - 60 (This work out as the most efficient for fuel [50 and 70 use more fuel on my rockets])

And my way is more fuel efficient then mechjeb's default settings (40 is to low an angle you run into atmospheric heating and drag)

And that is it, with the SAS on a rocket most rockets will fly.

You will struggle, initially with the game and you just have to follow the guides other people have laid out till you get an SAS but after that you are good.

One thing of note, if your rocket has way to much TWR (Thrust to Weight Ratio) you will need to limit your acceleration to 15 or 20 m/s. (If you do it means your rocket is OVERPOWERED)

I should take pictures of rocket designs and post them for those that need it.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Korizan
Updated Mechjeb and optimised settings for better fuel consumption

[EtherDragon]

@OP, I would love to see a video of you attempting to make orbit, and the struggles you are having.

[Sasquatch_Punter]

Simple answer: make your craft aerodynamically stable. Payloads and fairings that are as streamlined as possible, plus fins (preferably controlled ones) at the bottom of the first stage. The less aerodynamic your ship is, the longer you need to wait before starting your gravity turn.

You know, it's really not that tedious. I have a lot more fun designing my ships now anyway.

[hellion13]

I really dont see what problems people are having. Even the most twisted contraption flies for me, whether its a rocket or a plane.

For planes, its not enough to put the center of lift just anywhere behind the center of mass. Center it so the near corner of the lift arrow sits just behind the center line in the mass ball, inside the ball.

For rockets, basic fins should be enough for a gimballed engine, winglets that move if they aren't. 3-4 around the very bottom of the first stage, and 3-4 basic fins for the middle or upper stage depending on if you are still in the atmosphere when the first stage goes.

Keep vertical until 100m/s then shift over until it inline with the first small circle of numbers about 5 degrees. Keep tilting over SLOWLY and SMOOTHLY.

At 10k you should still be at the 45 marker but just keep smoothly flying for horizontal or close to at anything above 45km. At that point your craft needs to be around 400m/s or faster. Once your above 30km it really shouldn't matter about airflow go ahead and takeit out of the airstream.

[ionator]

For me, the flying is much faster and smoother.

While one of my planes used to go 200m/s, it can now go 350m/s

Edited May 19, 2015 by Red Iron Crown
Removed unnecessary font bigness.

[Initar]

I've been trying for a week to put a rocket in orbit in 1.02. And I insist, like many others, my troubles started with 1.02. For anything bigger than the 2.5 basic rocket (lets say, a SLS lookalike) the tumbling is totally out of control, sometimes happening in the upper atmosphere when the vectors from the debug menu don't even appear anymore!

This did NOT happen in 1.0, and yes I experience this with and without mods, using fairings or not, and I follow the new gravity turn models people are advising. The biggest fins are no help here.

I came back from a long pause for 1.0, but I give up for now.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Initar