Real ISRU Development Thread

[regex]

Sorry I missed these posts, I've been busy with another hobby/IRL and won't be back on this until Monday.

Will this be integrated with a remote sensing mod like ScanSat? If not, are you planning on integrating it with Karbonite at all?

Why would this be integrated with Karbonite? Kethane/Karbonite/Karborundum/Ore are all fantasy resources, magical unicorn poop as it were, and do not fit into a "Real" system. I'm assuming the stock scanning system can handle pretty much everything we need plus we get the benefit of doing this in Real Solar System, so resources will be where you expect them (water ice on Mars' poles, atmospheres will have the correct percentages of resources, etc...) Furthermore, most ISRU concepts harvest resources from a planetary atmosphere since those resources are much easier to access, don't require nearly as much processing and equipment, and don't require literal strip-mining to achieve anything substantial. In other words, resources scanners are pretty useless.

Don't neglect the stock, please. Kerbol system is quite playable with FAR, RT, RF while RSS seems to be always under construction.

My problem with the stock system is that any resource definitions are up for interpretation and will vary widely. For instance, I don't think Laythe should have atmospheric oxygen at all, much less an ocean; the only reason it does, IMO, is to give people another place to fly planes and do wacky Kerbin things off Kerbin. However, the main point of contention is probably Laythe, and possibly Eve, most of the other planets will be pretty easy to come to a consensus on and should be easy to include.

So... You are about implementing PSA/VPSA units? They look almost the same except for not being able to output liquified gases.

http://www.uigi.com/noncryo.html

Molecular sieve membranes (filters) on the other hand, despite being much lighter, are not the way to go for ISRU systems due to their limited life cycle.

tbh I haven't really looked into it but I assumed there would be some way to separate the cryogenic process from the extraction process. Thank you for the reading material.

Yep. Though I wouldn't call C-class "water-rich". They have SOME and that's much better than nothing. Abusing C-class asteroids for fuel will call for implementation of CO+O2 engines IRL, as carbon is much more abundant in them than hydrogen/water (oxygen is plentiful in ANY type of asteroids).

Right, just saying it'll be easier to stick with C-type asteroids to begin with.

Just give me some descriptions or sketches or photos of what it should look like. Modelling is comparatively fast and easy... what can't be told about texturing...

I imagine most of the parts will be made to fit inside service bays or cargo holds, but in general radial parts that wouldn't look too out of place tucked somewhere on the spacecraft would be fine. I think this will have to wait until I/we finalize the part configs and masses.

Blender is recommended. Most sane controls I ever saw in 3D-editors

Sorry, Lightwave is much easier and intuitive for me to use. Blender is totally bass-ackwards from what I'm used to and the fact that I can't simply dot some points and lathe an engine bell is troubling to me (it's much more of a process in Blender, last time I tried). ofc, I'd use probably use Blender to import and finalize things for KSP, but I haven't really gotten that far since I don't model much anymore.

Answer is simple: heat. Exothermic processes produce heat, endothermic processes consume it. Electrolysis is more "physical" process than "chemical".

Right, the question is more how does the converter/extractor handle waste heat for a given process. Is it used to continue the reaction, how much escapes, does any get turned into electricity, etc...

Hm-m-m... Can Regolith converter heat production values be negative? If they can - it may be used to simulate endothermic reactions.

The stock system handles heating. I think some code might be in order but it appears to be a linear heat production scale.

That's a hard one... Stirling engine or thermoelectric generator may use that heat, but only part of. Most heat will just dissipate.

A good idea, however... Abusing stock heat conduction mechanics to generate electricity.

Yep.

[Insanitic]

I want to help in the development of ISRU for RO and RSS, since I really want something like Karbonite except per reality. I don't have knowledge of programming, so can I donate if you need it regex? I want to help in SOME way since this mod would make RO so much more interesting to play in.

[regex]

I want to help in the development of ISRU for RO and RSS, since I really want something like Karbonite except per reality. I don't have knowledge of programming, so can I donate if you need it regex? I want to help in SOME way since this mod would make RO so much more interesting to play in.

Thank you, but I don't accept donations, ever. This is a hobby for me and I work on it in my spare time; accepting donations would make me feel beholden to the project and apply undue stress on me. Plus, I have a day job and am quite comfortable. If you want to donate find another worthy project such as RO/RSS. I intend to update the OP later to note contributors, whether in information, models, code, scripts, etc... later when I have more time. If those people are modders and accept donations, then you can check out their threads to help but I don't want to be responsible for doling out the appropriate sums to people.

[Insanitic]

Understood. Well, you can have my thanks for your efforts then. Maybe I'll take some time to understand the configs then. I have taken high school/1st year university python and java courses but am not sure how that's gonna be a help in developing mods in KSP.

[Raptor831]

Understood. Well, you can have my thanks for your efforts then. Maybe I'll take some time to understand the configs then. I have taken high school/1st year university python and java courses but am not sure how that's gonna be a help in developing mods in KSP.

C# is actually similar to Java. You have to be a bit more explicit in C#, but really after looking at some code you'll feel ok if you're already familiar with Java. At least that was my experience.

[AngelLestat]

I wish you the best luck with this, I hate all mining or isru methods used in the game or other mods which seems more arcade than the mario bros.

I am glad that some people is thinking serious in this.

[regex]

To be fair this really won't differ in the game mechanics of ISRU usage in KSP, we'll just use realistic paradigms. But I get what you mean.

[AngelLestat]

just one suggestion then... please try to avoid silly names as karbonite or kethane for resources.

all elements or substances are the same no matter in what part of the universe we are.

And it seems that kerbal language is translated to english anyway..

Also is more educative this way.

[Dr. Jet]

My problem with the stock system is that any resource definitions are up for interpretation and will vary widely. For instance, I don't think Laythe should have atmospheric oxygen at all, much less an ocean; the only reason it does, IMO, is to give people another place to fly planes and do wacky Kerbin things off Kerbin. However, the main point of contention is probably Laythe, and possibly Eve, most of the other planets will be pretty easy to come to a consensus on and should be easy to include.

That's just an option. GOOD option for those who hate to wait for RO/RSS or just like Kerbol system as it is. Having two configs is not much harder then having one.

tbh I haven't really looked into it but I assumed there would be some way to separate the cryogenic process from the extraction process. Thank you for the reading material.

Why separate when you can integrate? On the other hand PSA/VPSA processes are best realistic non-cryogenic I can think of for atmospheric ISRU. One can use molecular sieves to remove CO2 from breatjing air for smallest light vehicles like drop pod, but for large scale procession it's a no-no IMHO.

I imagine most of the parts will be made to fit inside service bays or cargo holds

Not very good idea realistic-wize... considering how much heat some of processes need or produce. Inline 2.5-3.75m parts with radially attached radiators look more plausible.

Blender is totally bass-ackwards from what I'm used to and the fact that I can't simply dot some points and lathe an engine bell is troubling to me (it's much more of a process in Blender, last time I tried).

Strange. There are three easy ways to do engine bells in Blender I think of immediately:

- vertex-sculpt from cylinder after hollowing it by boolean modifier (fast and easy)

- grow from circle by extruding regions (moderate time and effort)

- twisting curves that should match inner and outer walls (extra fast but you'll need good imagination... or blueprint)

The stock system handles heating. I think some code might be in order but it appears to be a linear heat production scale.

Linear production is fine IF it can be negative. Endo/Exothermic reactions are pretty linear themself in terms of heat production/consumption per unit of mass reacted. It can be a problem with varible mass and stock system, but we can pretend that reaction chamber is comparatively small and always 100% fed. Then exothermic reaction steadily produce constant amount of heat and endothermic one steadily consume constant amount of heat - fully stock compatible.

- - - Updated - - -

just one suggestion then... please try to avoid silly names as karbonite or kethane for resources.

That's the main point people try to write such mod. We hate unicorn poops.

Resources already used are strictly REAL.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Dr. Jet

[FennexFox]

just one suggestion then... please try to avoid silly names as karbonite or kethane for resources.

all elements or substances are the same no matter in what part of the universe we are.

And it seems that kerbal language is translated to english anyway..

Also is more educative this way.

I don`t get what you mean. If you read the OP, you'll definitely know that he is doing all this with the real resources, real chemical formula.

[SpacedInvader]

Why would this be integrated with Karbonite? Kethane/Karbonite/Karborundum/Ore are all fantasy resources, magical unicorn poop as it were, and do not fit into a "Real" system. I'm assuming the stock scanning system can handle pretty much everything we need plus we get the benefit of doing this in Real Solar System, so resources will be where you expect them (water ice on Mars' poles, atmospheres will have the correct percentages of resources, etc...) Furthermore, most ISRU concepts harvest resources from a planetary atmosphere since those resources are much easier to access, don't require nearly as much processing and equipment, and don't require literal strip-mining to achieve anything substantial. In other words, resources scanners are pretty useless.

While I can understand your point about Karbonite etc, I feel that calling resource scanners useless is a stretch. Sure we could just assume that Mars (or Duna) has water ice at the poles, but IRL that fact has been developed as a result in a massive (and continuing) investment in remote sensing technologies. There are also plenty of near-future realistic applications for remote sensing of resources such as identifying subsurface water reserves in advance of a potential lunar or martian base (less for drinking and more for fuel production, as I understand it). All of these missions would only serve to add depth to the game for those interested in conducting them, so dismissing them out of hand seems like a little harsh.

[AngelLestat]

Right now there are two atmospheric intakes, tanks for various resources, and a few simple reactors to start playing around with. I've made water on Duna using a Sabatier reactor with a methane pyrolyzer as a test. Resource definitions are included for Earth/Kerbin, Mars/Duna, Venus/Eve, and Titan/Laythe atmospheres, more to come. I'll add water drilling for Mars/Duna and Ceres/Dres, plus asteroids pretty soon.

I'm assuming the stock scanning system can handle pretty much everything we need plus we get the benefit of doing this in Real Solar System, so resources will be where you expect them (water ice on Mars' poles, atmospheres will have the correct percentages of resources, etc...) Furthermore, most ISRU concepts harvest resources from a planetary atmosphere since those resources are much easier to access, don't require nearly as much processing and equipment, and don't require literal strip-mining to achieve anything substantial. In other words, resources scanners are pretty useless.

From what I know (not sure if it change in the 1.02 version) KSP atmosphere just save data from the whole "air" (mix of elements) parameters, not composition.

So to allow a more detailed definition of the atmospheres we would need to add the porcentage mix of each element for each planet. (not sure if this is what you are suggestion in the quote)

This can be very usefull for new upcomming mods.

For example, laythe and kerbin had oxygen.. but how much?? 2%? 20%? 70%???

This is very important if we wanna fly with air breathing engines..

For future releases, will be great to include also height in the atmosphere porcentage composition.

My problem with the stock system is that any resource definitions are up for interpretation and will vary widely. For instance, I don't think Laythe should have atmospheric oxygen at all, much less an ocean; the only reason it does, IMO, is to give people another place to fly planes and do wacky Kerbin things off Kerbin. However, the main point of contention is probably Laythe, and possibly Eve, most of the other planets will be pretty easy to come to a consensus on and should be easy to include.

Yeah laythe seems to work against the common sense.

But well, changing a bit the atmosphere aspects can be possible I guess.

Titan has more atmosphere than earth, if you increase even more that atmosphere density with water vapor and methane, it may be possible to have liquid water on the surface.

Add a good magnetic field and that atmosphere will stay for long time.

jool gravity + magnetic field can be a source of heat for laythe.

I don`t get what you mean. If you read the OP, you'll definitely know that he is doing all this with the real resources, real chemical formula.

I saw other mods in developement follow similar path and at last time I see how all that math and genuine research is summarized in silly names to preserve the "ksp spirit"

Edited June 1, 2015 by AngelLestat

[regex]

Back from vacation, pardon the delay.

Not very good idea realistic-wize... considering how much heat some of processes need or produce. Inline 2.5-3.75m parts with radially attached radiators look more plausible.

Depends on the converter/extractor, but I agree. I'll probably use the stock inline refinery as a placeholder for some of the upcoming processes, most especially stuff like ammonia oxidization and the Fischer-Tropsch process.

Also, 2m/3m/4m/etc... RO doesn't standardize on the odd KSP dimensions.

Linear production is fine IF it can be negative.

I'm pretty sure it can be negative since it's just a multiplier and, if it can't, it should be quite easy to modify.

All of these missions would only serve to add depth to the game for those interested in conducting them, so dismissing them out of hand seems like a little harsh.

Scansat should hopefully integrate with the stock resource scanning and stock already has its own resource scanning so, if time warping for no real reason other than some pretty colors is your thing, you should be covered. Otherwise there is no real need to concern ourselves with that because we already have it and other mods will handle it perfectly well.

That's just an option. GOOD option for those who hate to wait for RO/RSS or just like Kerbol system as it is. Having two configs is not much harder then having one.

From what I know (not sure if it change in the 1.02 version) KSP atmosphere just save data from the whole "air" (mix of elements) parameters, not composition.

So to allow a more detailed definition of the atmospheres we would need to add the porcentage mix of each element for each planet. (not sure if this is what you are suggestion in the quote)

This can be very usefull for new upcomming mods.

Okay, let's just nip this in the bud right now.

REAL ISRU

The Kerbol system is NOT REAL. Therefore, any configs for Kerbol system, outside of those that are implemented for testing purposes based on REAL planets with REAL atmospheric compositions, should be, at best, a secondary, nay tertiary, concern. It's that simple. If you want to debate the composition of Laythe's atmosphere and how Jool will heat it while ignoring the obvious implications of planetary densities that simply cannot exist in the REAL world, not to mention the inherent problems of planets in KSP actually holding an atmosphere, be my guest, but such discussion does not belong in this thread, which is dedicated to a system for Realism Overhaul/Real Solar System, which does not have an ISRU mod.

I DO NOT WANT to integrate specific configs for the stock solar system into this mod because I want to avoid the endless bickering over what the specific composition of a fantastic planet's atmosphere should be. I guarantee you that, when this mod gets published and out there in the real world, this will happen if we have configs for Kerbol. I would much rather make corrections in atmospheric composition based on new knowledge and actual scientific papers/data for REAL planets than endlessly ... around about Laythe or Eve, or whether Bop should have water, etc...

So, please, stop this right now. If this does not fit into your vision of how this mod should progress there's a "New Thread" button up there and the license is quite permissive, as I have already demonstrated, and if you're not that ambitious I would be more than happy to link to Kerbol system configs, which should have a thread outside of this one.

I saw other mods in developement follow similar path and at last time I see how all that math and genuine research is summarized in silly names to preserve the "ksp spirit"

Stock already has plenty of ISRU mods, there is no real reason for us to take that path. Also, again, this mod is specifically for use with Realism Overhaul/Real Solar System; fanciful resource names and "unicorn poop" are anathema to the concept.

[AngelLestat]

So, please, stop this right now. If this does not fit into your vision of how this mod should progress there's a "New Thread" button up there and the license is quite permissive, as I have already demonstrated, and if you're not that ambitious I would be more than happy to link to Kerbol system configs, which should have a thread outside of this one.

You know what?? Why you dont just READ again the quotes that I did from you and my answers.. because you have it all wrong.

I will not be your "bad guy", because my interest for this mod was sincere, I DINT DO ANY COMMAND OR CRITICS OR NOTHING. just answering some post you did from the way I understand them.

So not sure why you attack me that way...

If this is only for Realism Overhaul.. perfect.. I have not complains, but you mention ksp stock in those quotes (and those was not complains either!!)

I have some knowledge about real atmospheres and how they work, is a topic that I find always interesting, I read 2 books just about venus atmosphere, sorry to give my 2 cents based in your same words about porcentage.

But well, not sure when my support become in the opposite. My english is not good, but I dont think is so bad either to be interpreted as something so negative.

So read it again, and this time without picture "horns" in the comment.

I wish you luck.

[regex]

Chill out, this has nothing to do with you in particular (E: and I apologize if you think I was attacking you because I wasn't), it has to do with stopping the idea that this mod has to cater to stock players RIGHT NOW. Stock has tons of ISRU options and I have no problems with someone else deciding to make stock configs, but this mod should be for RO/RSS and should not deviate in that purpose but remain focused E: and this thread should similarly remain focused.

Thank you.

Edited June 1, 2015 by regex

[Raptor831]

Someone, I promise, will adapt this for stock system. If not me, someone else will take the time. ModuleManager is a beautiful thing.

[Dr. Jet]

Stock already has plenty of ISRU mods

It does not. Kethane and Karbonite are "Unicorn Poops", MKS is focused on biological life support rather then direct chemical reactions and EL is just ore->...->build_everything_you_want_everywhere.

In terms of HARDCORE realism... KSP is incapable. Totally incapable. Even with RO/RSS. You cannot even use Lagrange points, not mentioning you have to play green skinned noseless (and often brainless) alien creatures for your spacemen. Comparing to that Kerbol system is kinda plausible.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Dr. Jet

[regex]

It does not. Kethane and Karbonite are "Unicorn Poops", MKS is focused on biological life support rather then direct chemical reactions and EL is just ore->...->build_everything_you_want_everywhere.

CRP has stock resource definitions and this mod has it as a hard dependency. All that may need to be done is make some additions and make a pull request. Alternatively, a simple ModuleManager script to edit what's there would work. But I'm not going to have it in this mod; I intend to stay laser-focused on RO/RSS support alone.

This is not because I hate stock, or don't play it, or don't appreciate the desire for a more realistic ISRU sim, it's because I'm not willing to define and dictate what some fantastic solar system is, and defend that against the opinion of others, because it is literally fruitless and could fill pages (plus Laythe really makes me mad). I totally appreciate if you or anyone else is not on-board with this concept. I literally have no issues with configs for stock outside of this mod that use this mod. I have no problems with forks. I have no problems with competing mods. What I do have a problem with is the endless debate over what is realistic for Kerbol.

In terms of HARDCORE realism... KSP is incapable. Totally incapable. Even with RO/RSS. You cannot even use Lagrange points, not mentioning you have to play green skinned noseless (and often brainless) alien creatures for your spacemen. Comparing to that Kerbol system is kinda plausible.

Have you met Principia? It's coming along nicely and should play even better once Unity 5 hits. StupidChris has also found some very interesting things regarding how the Kerbal model is built, we may eventually be able to replace Kerbals with Humans. I probably won't, I kind of like them, but KSP is well on its way to having a very realistic total conversion in all regards, most especially now that we have more stock systems that actually help rather than hinder. It's alright, you don't have to agree with that sentiment, but I do, and staying focused is what moves that total conversion forward.

[Dr. Jet]

Principia... That would call for development of some VERY powerful ingame instruments to play with. There is absolutely no fun to fight against real n-body physics without MechJeb to help or reworked patched conics calculator at least. A border between playable game and boring scientific project with plenty of calculations is not so wide...

Returning to the previous question. Why do you think that gas giant satellite may not have free oxygen in atmosphere? Ok, for lifeless worlds it's almost impossible... Ok, Laythe is too far from Kerbol to recieve enough light for photosynthesis... But we are playing with aliens! Alien biology! Why can't we for example have radiosynthetic algae that uses local radiation to power CO2 conversion? It's plausible. Some species of real world microbes have much wierder biochemistry.

Same about EVE oceans. Noone says that they consist of water. With such THICK atmosphere and so close to Kerbol Eve must have the same "greenhouse" problem as real Venus, so... molten lead for example is one of plausible components to form Eve oceans.

[RoverDude]

@Dr Jet - I think his point (and I agree) is that while such conversations are interesing, RealISRU is not the place for those conversations.

[Dr. Jet]

@Dr Jet - I think his point (and I agree) is that while such conversations are interesing, RealISRU is not the place for those conversations.

Then let's discuss modeling equipment for reactions already included in mod. How should it look like?

[regex]

Then let's discuss modeling equipment for reactions already included in mod. How should it look like?

Here's an Elektron (water electrolysis), to scale:

Here's a Google image link with some [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=sabatier+reactor&hs=0yq&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ddhtVd3pM8TsoASQ4YKADQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1745&bih=873#tbm=isch&tbs=rimg%3ACVp_1H5c_1_1-VKIjjlJkzmd7-IGwTzgDdgb8PbEia3dAUnUDHXLiqq47KAZACBvsj0etm7OS7TKvoaUg7ZfDJSErhLSSoSCeUmTOZ3v4gbEU0fJs0FxtdCKhIJBPOAN2Bvw9sRUKgUBUpYOeMqEgkSJrd0BSdQMRFz6v1FFvoTNCoSCdcuKqrjsoBkETLGhmlqDoVsKhIJAIG-yPR62bsRPjt9nIP5q1MqEgk5LtMq-hpSDhFnmIiqSuReMCoSCdl8MlISuEtJET9GPWJtPd90&q=sabatier%20reactor'>Sabatier equipment, much of that in scale with humans.

Here's a water-gas shift test bed, a lot of that can be compressed together in a creative manner:

A solid oxide electrolyser:

Basically we'd have to get creative, to some extent, since some of these processes don't have direct space-based analogues, but it would be nice to have them rooted in reality. Tubes, cubes, and nernies.

E: vOv, image linking is apparently failing...

Edited June 2, 2015 by regex

[Red Iron Crown]

Here's an Elektron (water electrolysis), to scale:

Here's a Google image link with some [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=sabatier+reactor&hs=0yq&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ddhtVd3pM8TsoASQ4YKADQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1745&bih=873#tbm=isch&tbs=rimg%3ACVp_1H5c_1_1-VKIjjlJkzmd7-IGwTzgDdgb8PbEia3dAUnUDHXLiqq47KAZACBvsj0etm7OS7TKvoaUg7ZfDJSErhLSSoSCeUmTOZ3v4gbEU0fJs0FxtdCKhIJBPOAN2Bvw9sRUKgUBUpYOeMqEgkSJrd0BSdQMRFz6v1FFvoTNCoSCdcuKqrjsoBkETLGhmlqDoVsKhIJAIG-yPR62bsRPjt9nIP5q1MqEgk5LtMq-hpSDhFnmIiqSuReMCoSCdl8MlISuEtJET9GPWJtPd90&q=sabatier%20reactor'>Sabatier equipment, much of that in scale with humans.

Here's a water-gas shift test bed, a lot of that can be compressed together in a creative manner:

A solid oxide electrolyser:

Basically we'd have to get creative, to some extent, since some of these processes don't have direct space-based analogues, but it would be nice to have them rooted in reality. Tubes, cubes, and nernies.

E: vOv, image linking is apparently failing...

Fixinated for ya.

[regex]

Fixinated for ya.

Thanks!

[AngelLestat]

Regex: Understood.

Instead an electrolyser, what about a reversible fuel cell? (less parts is always welcome in KSP)

Thanks for the fixed images Red.. but the scale seems too big for our current technology, maybe that was ok for 30 years ago... not sure what year to choose for the mod equipment, that depends on you Regex.