Why do you think laythe has no life?

[AbacusWizard]

I don't know about Laythe but Jool itself must be teeming with algae. How else would you explain its color?

More seriously though: we know Laythe has an oxygen-rich atmosphere; at least, enough for jet engines to operate, and enough for the kerbalnauts to at least consider taking off their helmets. Oxygen isn't very stable--is it possible for a planet to support that much if it doesn't have some sort of photosynthesizer replenishing the supply?

[DarkGravity]

I disagree with that requirement. As I said, it seems that life appeared to Earth almost immediately (in hundreds of millions of years) it become possible. Earth has never been and will not be stable place over billions of years. It has been much warmer, most continents have been very arid desert and it has also been long periods mostly (or totally) covered with ice. There have been very significant changes in atmospheric composition (oxygen, carbon dioxide). There have been collisions of asteroids and comets, massive geologic events, maybe gamma bursts from outer space etc.

If you have billion planets and probability of life appearing is one of several hundred millions of years and probability of life destruction is one of ten billion years most of the planets have life most of the time. But of course we can not say anything sure if we have observations from one planet. It can be that life is very rare in cosmic scales and the Earth is extreme example. I just not believe it. There is no special evidence behind rare life hypothesis.

We have studied only the surface of the Moon with such an accuracy that we can say that it is sterile. Except bacteria from Earth. Apollo 12 crew landed near Surveyor 3 probe, which had been several years on Moon. They took some parts to investigation and found bacteria which had survived years in vacuum exposed to extreme temperature variations and high radiation levels. Of course they can not reproduce or spread in such conditions but they can stay alive. It will be also very interesting to get soil sample from Mars at depth of couple of meters.

Regardless if the moon is the only location we have studies from good enough to declare sterility, that is not the only evidence available. We have done many studies of many bodies. Maybe not enough to prove sterility, but failing to prove every single thing in our solar system totally sterile is very different than having evidence that there is life. The difference is like confusing up with down.

And the argument that Earth has had "extreme swings" in temperature doesn't stand up when compared to the other candidates for hosting life that we know of. Being totally covered in solid water is pretty weak when some of the competition has liquid methane, and having been partly covered by pretty arid continents is a long way from the totally arid conditions on Mercury and Pluto. Compared to the competition, Earth has, in fact, existed in a very narrow temperature band with only trivial variations -- nothing even remotely approaching Venus or Neptune. Earth has been struck by comets and asteroids, but the only thing that I'd actually call "massive" would be when proto-Earth collided with Theia and gave birth to the moon, long before life evolved. The unreplicated Surveyor 3 data may have been from lab contamination, which is why we replicate experiments.

Believe whatever you want, but don't for a second pretend there is any scientific basis for it. Life might be common, but then again Leprechauns might actually be real. Maybe we just haven't seen them very often because they are hyper-dimensional beings that can hide from us until we figure out things like the unified field theory. If we eliminate conjecture and stick with the data, the score is roughly 100 to 0 currently.

Edited May 20, 2015 by DarkGravity

[Hannu]

Oxygen isn't very stable--is it possible for a planet to support that much if it doesn't have some sort of photosynthesizer replenishing the supply?

I have read speculations that ocean planets could have oxygen containing atmospheres because solar radiation decomposes water molecules in upper atmosphere. Light hydrogen escapes to space and oxygen accumulates to atmosphere. I do not know what conditions it needs or is it really possible. Earth is practically an ocean planet (70 % of surface) but there are not much water vapour or non biological oxygen in air. Probably at least temperature must be high and amount of water must be huge.

[DarkGravity]

Probably need the right gravity too to let the H escape and keep the O. Probably also has something to do with solar wind and whether the planet has a magnetosphere, and whether the planet ever gets too close to its star.

[Hannu]

Regardless if we have only studies from the moon good enough to declare sterility, that is not the only evidence available. We have done many studies of many bodies. Maybe not enough to prove sterility, but failing to prove every single thing in our solar system sterile is very different than having evidence that there is life. The difference is like confusing up with down. The unreplicated Surveyor 3 data may have been from lab contamination, which is why we replicate experiments.

Of course there are not very good places in our solar system and we can expect at most microbial life forms. If there are life probably they are same origin as Earts's life because there is significant mass change between bodies of solar system.

There have been many experiments of microbes' resistance against space conditions in ISS. They all suggest that microbes stand surprisingly well harsh conditions. I am not specialist on that area but I have understood that scientists commonly believe that microbial life can move at least between bodies of our solar system.

But I thought more exoplanets than our solar system. There seems to be enormous amounts of planets in our Galaxy. Some estimates are that number of planets is in the same order of magnitude than number of stars. Even life requires quite strict conditions in astronomical scale there is also practically unlimited number of suitable planets around stable enough stars.

Believe whatever you want, but don't for a second believe there is any scientific basis for it.

I did not mean that I know in scientific sense that there are life on other celestial bodies or statistical numbers are evidence of something. You are right that Earth is only place where life is known to be and everything else is just speculation.

But there are not also any observations which suggest that Earth has some special properties. In our solar system it definitely has but there are probably millions of as suitable planets among hundreds of billions of planets in our galaxy. At least we do not know any such thing.

[Tourist]

Not sure where I heard this, or if it's true, but I believe Jupiter really puts out the rads. Such that anything on Europa would be baked so mercilessly its genes would squeal. Could be Jool is so hot that it sterilizes the system. At the very least anything which grew there would be glow bright green.....

Hmmmm

Might be safe for Kerbal habitation afterall.

[DarkGravity]

Hannu, your whole argument seems to be shifting, and I agree with your last post. If there are hundreds of billions of planets in our galaxy, simple life on a few million of them sounds quite plausible. It also sounds quite rare to me. But that is still a decent sized "if." None of these so-called exoplanets has ever been seen. What has been observed is mostly just wobbling stars. Considering we still can't account for the movement of galaxies and had to invent terms like "dark energy' and "dark matter" to basically say "we don't understand why the universe moves the way it does," it might be a little premature to rely solidly on the concept that a wobbling star is proof of an exoplanet. It is the best placeholder idea currently available, but skepticism is always advised in research.

Edited May 20, 2015 by DarkGravity

[Esme]

Hmmn. OK, really sizable moon right next to a Jovian. Purple in colour. OK, so plenty of tidal heating. Jool itself could be imparting a certain amount of radiant heat too. If iodine is the reason for Laythe's purpleness, then it could be that the ocean is a brine witth an iodine salt instead of our familiar sodium chloride, maybe. (NB: I am not a chemist, and for all I know an iodine salt in H2O could be a solid) Niot sure what the implications of that would be for life, but there could be gigagtonnes of photosynthesising little gribblies in Laythe's oceans. Which could, of course, be liquid even that far out due to a combination of saltiness, tidal heating, core heating, and radiant heat from both Kerbol and Jool. Maybe, if there's enough of it.

Given that Laythe has as much atmosphere as it has, it would undoubtedly have an ionisphere (layer of ionized gases) in the upper atmosphere. Whether that;'d be enough to prevent radiation nasties reaching laythes surface depends on how strong teh incoming radiation is and how much of an ionisphere exists. But even if the land surface of Lathe is deadly due to radiation, the oceans could be fine.

As for jet propulsion in Laythe's atmosphere - a ject built for Earth/Kerbin requires an oxidiser to burn with the fuel, and on Earth?kerbin, that oxidiser is oxygen. Oxygen is not the only oxidiser - if I recall my smattering of chemical knowledge correctly, so are chlorine and fluorine. So no, it doesn't have to be oxygen in Laythes atmosphere for jet engines to work.

For myself, I don;t mind much. It is what it is, and I'm happy to make up my own ideas about it, just like I name features on Minmus according to my own tastes. My game, my names for features, my explanations, my story; your game, your names, your explanations, your story. :-)

[DarkGravity]

I would disagree in one small area though. I don't believe that Earth is the only place where life is known and everything else is speculation. In fact, we have many direct observations of other celestial bodies in our own solar system. The fact that we have so far failed to discover life on them is not speculation. That is data. So conclusions about the possibility of life elsewhere does not need to based solely on speculation. Also, when you say that there are probably millions of equally well-suited worlds as Earth in our galaxy, that is speculation. If it feels to you like surely there must be, that is not evidence-based. I would agree with you that there "very well might be" millions, but to go as far as saying there "probably are," that is a bridge too far for me.

[DunaRocketeer]

I like to imagine Laythe as a mash-up of early earth lifeforms, with little prospect of it getting beyond the equivalent of the ediacaran biota due being in a radiation belt of Jool. Very little in the way of surface life, though, except for prokaryotes insulated in the rock and some weird photosynethesis-capable stromatolytes and algae along the shores to explain away the oxygen atmosphere (incidentally, that would make for interesting ground scatter).

[prophet_01]

Not sure where I heard this, or if it's true, but I believe Jupiter really puts out the rads. Such that anything on Europa would be baked so mercilessly its genes would squeal. Could be Jool is so hot that it sterilizes the system. At the very least anything which grew there would be glow bright green.....

Hmmmm

Might be safe for Kerbal habitation afterall.

Current theories speculate that life might have appeared first near vulcanic regions at the bottom of the sea (on earth). Considering the pressure and density of the water at that depth it should be more than enough to block any radiation.

Although it's not clear how deep those oceans on laythe are and if they are frozen at a certain depth it seems like a good place to look for life. My guess is (with the current theories about europa in mind), that the tidal forces should be enough to create vulcanism and heat down there.

I won't bet on the atmosphere to block all the radiation (it's thinner than kerbin's) and wether or not laythe has a magnetic field isn't clear. So the presence of more complex life above sea level seems rather doubtfull to me. I do think that the conditions for life on laythe would be more similar to europa than earth, cause it's rly close to jool and should get significant amounts of radiation on the surface. The oceans look way more hospitable. And in contrast to europa there should still be some light down there to support algeas.

Btw, that oxygen=live point of view seems rather convincing to me afterall.

Edited May 20, 2015 by prophet_01

[DarkGravity]

For myself, I don;t mind much. It is what it is, and I'm happy to make up my own ideas about it, just like I name features on Minmus according to my own tastes. My game, my names for features, my explanations, my story; your game, your names, your explanations, your story. :-)

..brings to mind the Sim City, Sheldonopolis, with its Sheldon Square, Sheldon Towers, Sheldon Stadium (home of the fighting Sheldons) and of course Shel-Mart. :-)

[eddiew]

Oh, it's probably teeming with life, on the microbial level. I like to imagine that the oceans are full of single cell organisms.

That It's very hard to get an atmosphere with abundant molecular oxygen without a source because it tends to react with stuff and wind up in compounds (such as iron oxide, water, carbon dioxide). The best and strongest source we know is photosynthesis ^^

[justidutch]

Why do you think Laythe has no life?

Because there is no bar there.

Yet.

[NovaSilisko]

I've always worked on the assumption it has microbial life both in the oceans and buried in the sand along coastlines, which produces the oxygen in the atmosphere. The (as-yet-unseen) volcanoes and (as-yet-unfelt) radiation make it tough for much more than microbes to survive.

[KerikBalm]

A few points

#1) The atmosphere's scale height is 80% that of Kerbin, its surface pressure is 80% that of kerbin.... so there is roughly 64% the total mass of air that any given particle ahs to push through.

This will be sufficient to block most radiation.

Saturn also has radiation belts (as does Earth... the Van Allen belts) - which are weaker than jupiters... but still... anyway... the radiation on Titan, is actually less than that on Earth - it has no magnetic field, but it has one heck of an atmosphere!

So the surface should be relatively safe....

Liquid (water?) is pretty dense, and will block any remaining radiation in a short distance.

The oceans thus are, for all intents and purposes, a radiation free habitat.

#2) Many of the surface features of Laythe look like volcanic caulderas

Tell me you can't find any features on laythe similar to this:

The clustering, seems like a tectonic plate boundry, more than an impact crater to me - like the "rim of fire" on Earth (Layth'es land may look circular on scansat... but that is a distorted projection... what is there is not a circle)

It seems to have volcanism, which would probably be good for life (alternate energy source, as the sun is quite weak at those distances)

#3) Oxygen (or oxidizer) shows chemical disequilibirum... which is rarely seen without life, and the biggest differences from equilibrium that we can see are due to life... life seems to produce these at levels orders of magnitude greater than observed abiotic processes.

Its not conclusive, but its highly suggestive of life.

#4) Everything needed for life appears to be there.... but the conditions that life can form may not be the same as the conditions that life can exist.

If laythe isn't teeming with life... it will be after the first kerbal goes on EVA, and tries to take off its helmet.

#5) The EVA reports make it quite clear that its not healthy for Kerbals.

Indeed, a 50% CO2, 30%N2, 20% O2 atmosphere would be deadly to us, but I see no reason that life couldn't adapt to it.

Even plants can suffer from hypercapnia (although CO2 has to be really really high). I'm pretty sure there are a lot of microbes that would have very little problems with such an atmosphere.

The EVA reports make it clear that its not some atmosphere like 80% argon/Xenon/Neon, 20% O2... which is a shame... ISRU for ion engines would be so great there!

[bitbucket]

Although it's not clear how deep those oceans on laythe are and if they are frozen at a certain depth it seems like a good place to look for life. My guess is (with the current theories about europa in mind), that the tidal forces should be enough to create vulcanism and heat down there.

Thanks to altimetry mods like SCANsat we know pretty well how deep Laythe's oceans areâ€â€they average about 1500-2500 meters deep away from the islands, with a maximum depth of 2800 meters.

My take on it is that Laythe bears a resemblance to pre-Cambrian Earth of 600 million years ago, prior to the advent of multicellular life. Sunlight penetrates down to about 150-200 meters, though it only takes a few feet of water to effectively block radiation, so there's a safe zone for photosynthetic life near the surface. The atmosphere itself is an effective radiation screen, and if there's significant free oxygen in the atmosphere (enough to have filled the chemical and geological sinks) there might even be an ozone layer. There's little reason not to suspect the presence of photosynthesizing microbial life.

As for why the Kerbals can't breathe it for long, maybe there's simply not quite enough free oxygen yet and hypoxia sets in. Or it could be an excessive amount of CO₂ from volcanic activityâ€â€even with an adequate partial pressure of oxygen, if the air is, say, 10% CO₂, hypercapnia would set in within a few minutes. Without knowing how Kerbal biology works we have no conclusive answer.

Simple life is resilient and will likely appear anywhere where it can reasonably exist; all that's required to sustain it is a fluid medium and an energy source. Simple microbial lifeforms are likely ubiquitous in the Universe. Complex life is far less resilient and it takes a very long time in a stable environment for significant biodiversity to arise. Life has demonstrated a capacity to reshape environments to better suit itself and pave the way for more advanced life, even on planetary scales.

[Yellowburn10]

I've thought about this before, and have mixed reactions to it.

Firstly, I believe that the fact that it has an atmo with oxygen is a big indicator. It would also help block out radiation from Jool. But of course it's been said that the oceans and even the air has a high salt content, or at least an ionized compound, which would make it toxic for mere kerbals. Perhaps though there are microbes that are unaffected by this.

Then there is Laythe's geological activity.

There are clear signs of volcanism on Laythe, although it would seem that with the vast oceans, most volcanoes would erupt below the oceans surface. Also, with the gravity of Jool and 2 other moons, earthquakes could be common on Laythe, meaning there could be a constant moon-wide tsunami threat. Only the higher elevations would be suitable for life to develop. It could prove dangerous if the said peak is a volcano, however volcanos can also fill soil with minerals that help plant life grow.

So in my opinion, Laythe would be a tough place to try to harbor life, but it could be possible.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I don't really know why. It has water and land. Plus, since it's next to a gas giant, it must get some warmth...

Just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there

Take Kerbin, no cities, no Farmland but 2 Space Centers and ancient Pyramids can be found there.

Ooops, did I say too much?

[SmashingKirby148]

No vegetation, perhaps?

[Wjolcz]

I think there is. By the thermal vents under the sea. Though it would probably not produce oxygen.

On other note, I'd like Laythe's ice caps to be way bigger. 50-60% of the surface covered in ice maybe? With sea being only on the equator. That would make it look more like a far from sun, cold place.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Veeltch

[AbacusWizard]

I do like the idea of Laythe's oceans just beginning to develop simple lifeforms near the thermal vents. Great source of energy and a variety of chemicals. Could be a lot of potential for a sequel in Laythe Submarine Program.

[stupid_chris]

Given the temperature and pressure, that's most likely not water. Even liquid water saturaded with salt doesn't fit. Given the temperature range and the fact it has polar caps, ammonia seems to have the right properties to be the culprit.

[Brotoro]

Ammonia is a gas at the pressure and temperatures (at least the new temperatures listed in the Kerbal Celestials wiki) on Laythe.

Or do you mean a mix of ammonia and water?

[little square dot]

Flip a coin for long enough, eventually you'll get heads 1000 times in a row.

For this to be necessarily true, that "long enough" period has to be infinite. Jus sayin'. =)