Teleportation big question: does it kill person in process?

[Fel]

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is irrelevant. The uncertainty principle would apply just the same before and after you teleported someone.

The argument, which I addressed, is a flawed argument that claims to teleport an arrangement of atoms in the exact configuration said atoms are in you would require to know all knowable information about said atoms. Heisenberg basically says that any action to learn said information will inadvertently cause a change that invalidates said information.

The problem is that you OFTEN don't give a crap what quantum state your molecules are in, you only care about the macro system.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Fel

[BlueCosmology]

The argument, which I addressed, is a flawed argument that claims to teleport an arrangement of atoms in the exact configuration said atoms are in you would require to know all knowable information about said atoms. Heisenberg basically says that any action to learn said information will inadvertently cause a change that invalidates said information.

The problem is that you OFTEN don't give a crap what quantum state your molecules are in, you only care about the macro system.

That isn't true. The uncertainty principle has nothing at all to do with an experimenter taking any action.

The quantum system itself is uncertain, it is not in one particular quantum state, it is many at once. The uncertainty principle does not say anything along the lines of "The quantum system is in a state A, but action will cause this state to change so it can not be measured exactly". The uncertainty principle is a quantum system is essentially not in a particular state.

It is not that you can not measure the exact configuration of the atoms, it is that the atoms do not have an exact configuration.

Edited May 29, 2015 by BlueCosmology

[G'th]

The question is, even if you did die and what comes out is a clone, would it matter? The biggest indicator that this likely issue with teleportation would even matter at all is if there's a perceivable loss of consciousness during the process and if the brain is affected in anyway, be it psychological or physical.

If the conscious brain can't tell the difference between either state (even if you're technically dealing with an entirely new being on the other side) and isn't otherwise affected, then who really cares? Neither being would be able to tell it died, and presuming the two beings are 100% identical and the brain isn't affected in any way, then whether or not you're dealing with a clone is irrelevant.

It may still pose a philosophical issue, but it still comes back to the consciousness problem, and whether or not you really want to get hung up on philosophy when you've invented something that would be an extraordinary milestone in science.

[Fel]

It is not that you can not measure the exact configuration of the atoms, it is that the atoms do not have an exact configuration.

Well, you can't measure the "exact configuration" in either case since you cannot make a measurement particle-wise without causing a change energy-wise; of course, in retrospect, that wouldn't really matter since at any one moment we have energy-intrachanges (within atom) that keep all of this changing anyways even before we introduce quantum-wave effects.

*Still trying to figure out what I was referencing*

[baggers]

We probably don't have to have "exactly" the exact configuration of atoms to give your "copy" and everyone else a strong feeling of beiing ourself.

[cicatrix]

Here is a thought experiment for you. Consider regular movement through quantized spacetime. If a macroscopic object such as a person moves the smallest possible distance does he die? There is no motion between the states, one time instant he is somewhere and the next he is somewhere else. What if he moves not to an adjacent 'pixel' but skips a few, does he die? If the person gets disintegrated, transferred as information and reconstructed, is that any different? Does it even matter if you are dead while in transit?

I'll give you a little thought experiment taken from here (http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/what-makes-you-you.html):

It’s the year 2700. The human race has invented all kinds of technology unimaginable in today’s world. One of these technologies is teleportationâ€â€the ability to transport yourself to distant places at the speed of light. Here’s how it worksâ€â€

You go into a Departure Chamberâ€â€a little room the size of a small cubicle.

You set your locationâ€â€let’s say you’re in Boston and your destination is Londonâ€â€and when you’re ready to go, you press the button on the wall. The chamber walls then scan your entire body, uploading the exact molecular makeup of your bodyâ€â€every atom that makes up every part of you and its precise locationâ€â€and as it scans, it destroys, so every cell in your body is destroyed by the scanner as it goes.

When it’s finished (the Departure Chamber is now empty after destroying all of your cells), it beams your body’s information to an Arrival Chamber in London, which has all the necessary atoms waiting there ready to go. The Arrival Chamber uses the data to re-form your entire body with its storage of atoms, and when it’s finished you walk out of the chamber in London looking and feeling exactly how you did back in Bostonâ€â€you’re in the same mood, you’re hungry just like you were before, you even have the same paper cut on your thumb you got that morning.

The whole process, from the time you hit the button in the Departure Chamber to when you walk out of the Arrival Chamber in London, takes five minutesâ€â€but to you it feels instantaneous. You hit the button, things go black for a blink, and now you’re standing in London. Cool, right?

In 2700, this is common technology. Everyone you know travels by teleportation. In addition to the convenience of speed, it’s incredibly safeâ€â€no one has ever gotten hurt doing it.

But then one day, you head into the Departure Chamber in Boston for your normal morning commute to your job in London, you press the big button on the wall, and you hear the scanner turn on, but it doesn’t work.

The normal split-second blackout never happens, and when you walk out of the chamber, sure enough, you’re still in Boston. You head to the check-in counter and tell the woman working there that the Departure Chamber is broken, and you ask her if there’s another one you can use, since you have an early meeting and don’t want to be late.

She looks down at her records and says, “Hmâ€â€it looks like the scanner worked and collected its data just fine, but the cell destroyer that usually works in conjunction with the scanner has malfunctioned.â€Â

“No,†you explain, “it couldn’t have worked, because I’m still here. And I’m late for this meetingâ€â€can you please set me up with a new Departure Chamber?â€Â

She pulls up a video screen and says, “No, it did workâ€â€see? There you are in Londonâ€â€it looks like you’re gonna be right on time for your meeting.†She shows you the screen, and you see yourself walking on the street in London.

“But that can’t be me,†you say, “because I’m still here.â€Â

At that point, her supervisor comes into the room and explains that she’s correctâ€â€the scanner worked as normal and you’re in London as planned. The only thing that didn’t work was the cell destroyer in the Departure Chamber here in Boston. “It’s not a problem, though,†he tells you, “we can just set you up in another chamber and activate its cell destroyer and finish the job.â€Â

And even though this isn’t anything that wasn’t going to happen beforeâ€â€in fact, you have your cells destroyed twice every dayâ€â€suddenly, you’re horrified at the prospect.

“Waitâ€â€noâ€â€I don’t want to do thatâ€â€I’ll die.â€Â

The supervisor explains, “You won’t die sir. You just saw yourself in Londonâ€â€you’re alive and well.â€Â

“But that’s not me. That’s a replica of meâ€â€an imposter. I’m the real meâ€â€you can’t destroy my cells!â€Â

The supervisor and the woman glance awkwardly at each other. “I’m really sorry sirâ€â€but we’re obligated by law to destroy your cells. We’re not allowed to form the body of a person in an Arrival Chamber without destroying the body’s cells in a Departure Chamber.â€Â

You stare at them in disbelief and then run for the door. Two security guards come out and grab you. They drag you toward a chamber that will destroy your cells, as you kick and scream…

[LN400]

I'm with Fel on this one. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and the undecidability in quantum mechanics (and the unobserved object) are not the same principle.

[Fel]

The question is' date=' even if you did die and what comes out is a clone, would it matter? The biggest indicator that this likely issue with teleportation would even matter at all is if there's a perceivable loss of consciousness during the process and if the brain is affected in anyway, be it psychological or physical.[/quote']

Let's change this, okay?

"Duplicating" technology is widely available and dirt cheap (just like teleportation would be). I pull out a gun and shoot you, you pop up somewhere "duplicated" and your "on person" belongings are teleported to you (because, why not).

What crime did I commit?

- - - Updated - - -

The supervisor explains, “You won’t die sir. You just saw yourself in Londonâ€â€you’re alive and well.â€Â

“But that’s not me. That’s a replica of meâ€â€an imposter. I’m the real meâ€â€you can’t destroy my cells!â€Â

The supervisor and the woman glance awkwardly at each other. “I’m really sorry sirâ€â€but we’re obligated by law to destroy your cells. We’re not allowed to form the body of a person in an Arrival Chamber without destroying the body’s cells in a Departure Chamber.â€Â

You stare at them in disbelief and then run for the door. Two security guards come out and grab you. They drag you toward a chamber that will destroy your cells, as you kick and scream…

Or what if... I'm a really sadistic ....... and tamper with the machine so that no one's cells are destroyed... just because I enjoy "disposing" of them.

*This is why we hold ethical discussions before it becomes a problem*

- - - Updated - - -

I'm with Fel on this one. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and the undecidability in quantum mechanics (and the unobserved object) are not the same principle.

No, BlueCosmology was in the right. Heisenberg is the latter, explaining that the "particle" definitions of position and momentum cannot be applied to the unit as a waveform.

An interaction with the unit produces a state change, yes, in that it behaves like a particle (single state) until no longer acted upon; but that isn't Heisenberg

Edited May 29, 2015 by Fel

[baggers]

Let's change this, okay?

"Duplicating" technology is widely available and dirt cheap (just like teleportation would be). I pull out a gun and shoot you, you pop up somewhere "duplicated" and your "on person" belongings are teleported to you (because, why not).

What crime did I commit?

- - - Upd

It's a strict lawyer point of view.

If it's statued that when a human is duplicated, the "new" is the human, and the "old" just dirty atomic mechanisms, when you dispose of it, you actually certainly have no commited any crime.

[LN400]

An interaction with the unit produces a state change, yes, in that it behaves like a particle (single state) until no longer acted upon; but that isn't Heisenberg

I believe that was exactly what I was refering to when I said the 2 principles were not the same

[SciMan]

That wait-but-why article misunderstands the Quantum No-Cloning theory.

The scanner destroys your cells. If it doesn't destroy your cells, it doesn't scan you. If it destroys your cells, it might or might not have scanned you.

In other words, teleportation has 3 valid outcomes out of 4 conceivable outcomes.

1. Nothing happens. Walk in entry point booth, push button, walk out entry point booth and report malfunction.

2. Normal operation. Walk in entry point booth, push button, walk out destination point booth.

3. Tele-frag. Walk in entry point booth, push button, NOTHING comes out destination point booth. Most likely teleporter malfunction when it "half works".

4. Cloning. Can't happen according to the Quantum no-cloning theorem, roll again until you get a 1,2,or 3.

Specific type of misunderstanding: Laws of physics have no judge, jury, or trial. They describe physical phenomena, instead of mandating a course of action.

[Brethern]

Let's change this, okay?

"Duplicating" technology is widely available and dirt cheap (just like teleportation would be). I pull out a gun and shoot you, you pop up somewhere "duplicated" and your "on person" belongings are teleported to you (because, why not).

What crime did I commit?

Did the person you shot see you point a gun at them and pull the trigger? did anyone else?

Because if only the person you shot saw you point a gun at them and pull the trigger they're going to have a hard time convincing anyone they got shot.

[Heimdall5008]

As said on the first page of the topic it depends:

• on the field of science your looking at
  
• the functional princible of the teleporter
  

May most basic answer would be that this is a topic for definition. It's the same topic as the paradox of the ship of Theseus. What is the same? What is yourself?

[kStrout]

Think of it as a computer file, if you move a file what you are really doing is destroying the file and creating an exact copy in the new location, but as far as anyone is concerned, the file has just moved.

Also on this topic there is a great book called Implied Spaces where they take it one step further and make backups every now and then so that if you die, a new copy of you is created from the last backup. The main character dies like 3 times.