Poll, the R.A.P.I.E.R, what do you think it needs

[Red Iron Crown]

Fine as they are, IMO. Powerful enough to make SSTOs not impossibly difficult, not so powerful as to be the only sane choice.

[GoSlash27]

Oh my god no, that would force us to put even more rapiers on our sstos.... Or it might kill sstos off... Please no

As it stands, a properly designed SSTO doesn't require much in the way of engines. Most mass-efficient designs are running 15 tonnes of spaceplane for each RAPIER and I have designs that still work fine up to 18 tonnes per RAPIER.

Reducing the thrust wouldn't kill SSTOs, especially if they're tweaked around Mach 1. It would make them a little more difficult, but not a whole lot since they're more limited by drag than by mass.

It would mainly just make them less attractive for vertical lifters.

Best,

-Slashy

[CaptRobau]

An alternator. Solar panels don't fit the sleek look of Skylon like craft and RTGs feel like cheating since they're quite rare IRL (except for special missions). Jet engines and rocket engines have alternators, so why not the Rapier as well?

[kStrout]

what we really need is a good way to add engines to the back of a mrk 3, the bicoupler for mrk 2 is awesome, can't we have something similar?

[Kuu Lightwing]

As it stands, a properly designed SSTO doesn't require much in the way of engines. Most mass-efficient designs are running 15 tonnes of spaceplane for each RAPIER and I have designs that still work fine up to 18 tonnes per RAPIER.

Reducing the thrust wouldn't kill SSTOs, especially if they're tweaked around Mach 1. It would make them a little more difficult, but not a whole lot since they're more limited by drag than by mass.

It would mainly just make them less attractive for vertical lifters.

Best,

-Slashy

15 ton per RAPIER means that for a large spaceplane you'll need about 8-10 RAPIERS which is not looking good and breaks the immersion.

[magnemoe]

Fine as they are, IMO. Powerful enough to make SSTOs not impossibly difficult, not so powerful as to be the only sane choice.

Spaceplanes would anyway be relatively impractical for large payloads like this tanker.

Their usefulness tapper off as payloads get larger, also as you launch fewer giant ones.

[problemecium]

I like the RAPIER the way it is, save for a bit of an overheating issue at high altitudes. I presumed the Intake Pre-cooler is intended to fix this, but I haven't noticed it actually doing anything, or anything in the information panel about a heat exchanger module. So I'd say it's the pre-cooler that needs, um, a pre-cooler. Or if it does have one, a buff to make it more powerful.

[pvtnum11]

I think it needs an Alternator so it can generate electric power when running.

[landfish2]

I want the rapier and the turbo-ramjet to be distinctly different. Right now it feels a little bit to much for me like the rapier is just the turbojet with the addition of closed-cycle. Even if it is not entirely realistic I want the rapier to be a larger endgame step up in terms of power.

[Screeno]

I want the rapier and the turbo-ramjet to be distinctly different. Right now it feels a little bit to much for me like the rapier is just the turbojet with the addition of closed-cycle. Even if it is not entirely realistic I want the rapier to be a larger endgame step up in terms of power.

That's exactly how I feel mate, it is a game after all XD

- - - Updated - - -

I like the RAPIER the way it is, save for a bit of an overheating issue at high altitudes. I presumed the Intake Pre-cooler is intended to fix this, but I haven't noticed it actually doing anything, or anything in the information panel about a heat exchanger module. So I'd say it's the pre-cooler that needs, um, a pre-cooler. Or if it does have one, a buff to make it more powerful.

At the current time the precooler is nothing more than an inline air intake with a small amount of liquidfuel. It doesnt actually increase the performance of airbreathers, like it says it does, which is a shame. Personally I think that when its used with a rapier it should make that rapier get a higher performance ceiling and speed.

[GoSlash27]

15 ton per RAPIER means that for a large spaceplane you'll need about 8-10 RAPIERS which is not looking good and breaks the immersion.

I agree with this, which is why we would want Mk.3 sized engines also. They could also be proportionally heavy but maybe more efficient to encourage stepping up to Mk.3 designs. As it stands, the current air breathers are too small for Mk.3 designs.

Best,

-Slashy

[ajburges]

Need is a bit strong of a word, but it would be nice if the RAPIER had smidge better transonic performance. The transonic drag wall is frustrating to balance design against. OTOH you never have want of better high Mach performance for them.

Alternators would also be nice, but I'm paranoid about power management as is so I don't feel the want as badly.

RAPIER engines are already a top tier choice and they finally are differentiated from Turbojets in use. They don't need buffs to make them worthwhile (unlike .90). If you must buff an air breather, visit the basic jet.

[Screeno]

I've had a more refined idea to the rapier changes, I think, the precooler would become a part that does what it says, it could increase the rapier's performance. Without it, rapiers would be the same as they are now, but when a rapier is attached to a precooler, it gets its peak thrust for longer and at a higher speed. Say max 1400m/s also the preecooler would have to be an endgame part, with a high cost.

[KerikBalm]

I think it needs less air breathing mode thrust, along with the turbojet and basic jet.

These parts are attractive for use in vertical launch boosters and they really shouldn't be.

Confirming: I was again making a SSTO for "oversize" payload (which I define as 7.5m in width or more... ie too small to fit in a 2.5m aeroshell/ 3x 2.5 meter tanks

... I remembered that pre 1.0, I got tired of the whole spaceplane thing (took too long), and did vertical launch SSTOs.

I again made a cluster of turbojets around the base of the rocket (KR-2L engine)... thrust was a little low, so I added a pair of wings, sporting more turbojets mounted to them.

Stuck a 3x2.5m tank wide payload on top (though it was easier to do it without the aeroshell, with just minor streamlining of the payload.

I spooled up the turbos, released the clamps while firing the KR-2L for a few seconds, and was ascending accelerating, pushed the nose over for a gravity turn... fired the KR-2L, and made orbit.

The I was able to bring it down for a horizontal landing on the runway (though it handled like a pig, and needed multiple quickloads to get it to touch down safely... thats what I get for designing a spaceplane from the VAB)

Spaceplanes would anyway be relatively impractical for large payloads like this tanker.

http://i.imgur.com/T8H5Riu.png

Their usefulness tapper off as payloads get larger, also as you launch fewer giant ones.

Well, that is a pretty big payload, but I think I could manage to get it up in an SSTO.

There should be space in there, but I don't think I could wrap an aeroshell around it. I find the aeroshells often cause more drag than they are worth, because I can't give them an eliptical cross section, only circular...

I'm guessing you didn't wrap that in an aeroshell?

If you're not opposed to sticking some nose cones on it, I think it wouldn't be too hard to loft up in an SSTO,

[Fel]

Well, it's not about how good or hard FAR is, it's just about balancing for stock. I'm pretty sure Ferram can rebalance the engines a bit for FAR like he did before.

Wanderfound, but still, I'm pretty sure that your Mk2 with single RAPIER won't get to space today in stock. I needed two RAPIERs for Skylon-ish Mk2 that weights 22 tons. It didn't have too many draggy parts and only a little wing.

http://i.imgur.com/gR13xDpl.jpg

15 ton per RAPIER means that for a large spaceplane you'll need about 8-10 RAPIERS which is not looking good and breaks the immersion.

Wanderfound, that's FAR. Does not count.

I think we need just a larger one. Because planes with 10 engines on them is not cool and is immersion-breaking.

I just wanted to point out that there is a major difference between immersion and "OMG LOOKS COOL." Skylon was engineered using precisely placed parts, mass ratios, fuel ratios, lift & drag profiles, fuel flow dynamics, etc... and the DESIGNED payload fraction was 4.36%; you just made it "like" but completely off from the actual design specifications.

Look at just how out of proportion you really are, which greatly affects the drag profile and overall effectiveness. (Yes, it looks small, but it's huge when we're talking about drag and actual design.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Fel

[Wanderfound]

At the current time the precooler is nothing more than an inline air intake with a small amount of liquidfuel. It doesnt actually increase the performance of airbreathers, like it says it does, which is a shame.

They have a fairly high heat tolerance, and work well as heat sinks. Intercooler mounted in front of the engine, wing mounted to the intercooler to double as a radiator. Haven't blown an engine yet, despite a habit of riding the edge of the overheating limits.

[cybersol]

The precoolers also have the same emissive constant as solar panels (0.95), so they do help radiate some heat.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I just wanted to point out that there is a major difference between immersion and "OMG LOOKS COOL." Skylon was engineered using precisely placed parts, mass ratios, fuel ratios, lift & drag profiles, fuel flow dynamics, etc... and the DESIGNED payload fraction was 4.36%; you just made it "like" but completely off from the actual design specifications.

~snip~

Look at just how out of proportion you really are, which greatly affects the drag profile and overall effectiveness. (Yes, it looks small, but it's huge when we're talking about drag and actual design.)

You are missing the point.

I've shown my design simply to point out that it doesn't have too much drag that can be reduced somehow - wings are already small, I don't have extra intakes that create extra drag and no parts that stick out.

Now, "real Skylon" doesn't fly in Kerbin's atmo with Kerbin's aero, it doesn't use Kerbosene like Kerbal craft do - it's designed for liquid hydrogen which has completely different density. (In fact it doesn't fly at all because it's still under development) So, whatever proportions it has is irrelevant to the game balance discussion.

Also, fully loaded it weights 345 tons and uses only two SABREs, not "one per 15 tons".

Edited May 26, 2015 by Kuu Lightwing

[eddiew]

I've had rapiers to 1400m/s in stock, the top end is not the issue.

For me the problem is low down power, namely at about mach 1 they output 65% of what a turbojet does at a similar speed. That's why so many rapier-only planes are getting stuck at the mach barrier.

[Wanderfound]

I've had rapiers to 1400m/s in stock, the top end is not the issue.

For me the problem is low down power, namely at about mach 1 they output 65% of what a turbojet does at a similar speed. That's why so many rapier-only planes are getting stuck at the mach barrier.

Combined with the fact that stock aero induces a ridiculous level of deceleration as soon as you apply any substantial AoA. It makes the "dive to gain speed, pull up once supersonic" trick harder than it should be.

[eddiew]

Combined with the fact that stock aero induces a ridiculous level of deceleration as soon as you apply any substantial AoA. It makes the "dive to gain speed, pull up once supersonic" trick harder than it should be.

That too. A stock ascent pretty much has to involve getting to 10km, then pointing at the 10-15 degree letterbox and holding it there until you hit 35km. Shallower burns you up, steeper is too fuel intensive.

With engines that struggle to get you transonic even when level, this is a real problem to execute :/ Starting to wonder whether a disposable turbojet that can be fired off the back once you pass mach 2 might actually be a sane option!

...Kind of holding off advancing my career until 1.0.3 cos I want to see what the devs come up with. If current aero is the forever-aero, then I shall definitely be a nuFAR convert.

[magnemoe]

I just wanted to point out that there is a major difference between immersion and "OMG LOOKS COOL." Skylon was engineered using precisely placed parts, mass ratios, fuel ratios, lift & drag profiles, fuel flow dynamics, etc... and the DESIGNED payload fraction was 4.36%; you just made it "like" but completely off from the actual design specifications.

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/skylonv.gif

http://i.imgur.com/gR13xDpl.jpg

Look at just how out of proportion you really are, which greatly affects the drag profile and overall effectiveness. (Yes, it looks small, but it's huge when we're talking about drag and actual design.)

Tested this design myself but added an turbojet on the back, probably did not need it, plane broke sound barrier at 3 km at a 45 degree climb. was able to level out at around 20 km and got speed up to 1400 m/s before switching to rocket mode,

Should probably have climbed faster, jet engine exploded because of overheat even then turned off.

Got Ap up to 100 km with decent of fuel to circulate but game crashed first successful SSTO operation.

[billyoak]

The current Rapier stats are ok.(Not too easy not too hard) Although it did take a little bit to learn how to make a ssto's with the new aero/parts setup.

For reference my heavy lifter 90T to LKO; 20 Rapiers, 6 Turbo Jet to ease the mid section of the flight. Take off weight 360T.

[AzertyBot]

RAPIERs are fine : they make SSTO really easy to make, but given their science cost it's well balanced IMO.

Maybe more heat issues ? I don't know how SABRE engines works in real life, but in KSP i never experienced this much difficulty with RAPIER and overheat, and it would make a use for engine coolers.

[Kuu Lightwing]

20 Rapiers

This clearly indicates that RAPIERs are not OK :/

I don't know how SABRE engines works in real life

They do not work yet. In development. But a pair of them theoretically should get a spaceplane weighting 345 tons at liftoff into space. Into orbit around real Earth

Edited May 26, 2015 by Kuu Lightwing