[Philosophy] Value

[magnemoe]

Another relevant video:

Very good video, and the problem is not greed from the seller but greed from the buyer. You buy something to sell back later then its more expensive. This will not work over time if everybody do it.

Note that stocks give revenue, and people make money growing tulips, however this is not a way to get rich fast.

The housing bubble is a bit more complex, property prices tend to match the economical trends and expensive property tend to be far more vulnerable to economic trends.

It was made worse by banks demanding too low security, politicians who encouraged this and nobody understood it was an bobble, or more likely they hoped it would pop after they was safe.

[Fel]

The value of an item is what somebody is willing to pay for it, simple as that. Rarity and utility factor into that somewhat, but demand can come from completely abstract (and potentially bs) factors like 'intrinsic value' or 'collectibility'. I've done some work in the antique toys business, and I've encountered plenty of items that are in good condition, have good build quality, are quite rare and are literally worthless because nobody collects them. If we get stuff like that in an auction lot, it either goes to a charity shop or is left at a car boot sale with a sign saying 'take me'.

May I say, that I do hate that so many people don't understand what supply and demand REALLY is about. For instance, there is a very limited supply of MY toenail clippings, yet I can't get anyone to purchase even a single one. There's also an extremely large supply of drinkable water, but we gladly pay extra just so it can be in a bottle. Supply and demand is a relationship of perceived value and nothing more, the real point being made is how to exploit it into getting people to pay more for something that costs less.

The thing is, value really is simply "what someone is willing to pay for it."

Let me point something out, Open Source treats the end product as have no value, but then some people misconceive that the labor "already committed" can have value that remains unbalanced. Open Source is a "donate to improve" economy, but if you're improving DESPITE the lack of donations all you're saying is that your labor has NO VALUE. You cannot recover free labor, you cannot get pissy and rant about the lack of donations, it is economics 101 and many developers fail to understand exactly what "value" is.

If you do work "for free" then the value you put on your labor is "free" and that is the value that others perceive your labor to be.

[YNM]

And raised values in high demand - why do you blame the seller ? People still buys them, that means they value it as much as the seller values it. Next time, just stop buying things when prices rise, they'll fall off due to lack of sales. Problem solved.

It is an exploit. Increasing the price of something by the same amount, in small increments at a time, makes it so that it goes up in smaller and smaller fractions each time, making people believe that it is only a small increase, and still worth the buy. It's just another way to pull money from people because of greed.

If you want prices to be well - maintained and things are rationed, go to NK. That's how you get business, in a world where banks are printing their own currency.

Very good video, and the problem is not greed from the seller but greed from the buyer. You buy something to sell back later then its more expensive. This will not work over time if everybody do it.

Note that stocks give revenue, and people make money growing tulips, however this is not a way to get rich fast.

The housing bubble is a bit more complex, property prices tend to match the economical trends and expensive property tend to be far more vulnerable to economic trends.

It was made worse by banks demanding too low security, politicians who encouraged this and nobody understood it was an bobble, or more likely they hoped it would pop after they was safe.

Everything is governed by trust from people. You trust it, you do it. US's housing bubble are quite much similar to that tulip bubble - with one additional thing, inflation (guess back then most currency are pegged to gold, unlike today, where every currency is actually on inflation). I heard that even old woman alone are told to buy new house - I mean, what do you expect from your grandmother to afford a house on it's own, at its age ?

[vger]

And raised values in high demand - why do you blame the seller ? People still buys them, that means they value it as much as the seller values it. Next time, just stop buying things when prices rise, they'll fall off due to lack of sales. Problem solved.

Show some freaking responsibility.

Nobody blames the sheep for what happens to the flock. They blame the shepherd.

If you're smarter than all the idiots out there, and you take advantage of it, you're exploiting them. If you're doing that, you're a jerk. If you blame the buyers, you're even more of a jerk. You've already established that you're smarter than John Doe out there. Now you're expecting them to be capable of outsmarting billions of dollars of psychological research done by the most brilliant minds in the world; research done specifically to optimize the exploitation of buyers at a subconscious level. And you're blaming the buyers.

go to NK. That's how you get business, in a world where banks are printing their own currency.

...right, as if that kind of thing only happens in NK......

[RainDreamer]

Everything is governed by trust from people. You trust it, you do it.

I also wanted to say something about this, about how value is in essence based on the trust placed on an item. Like, there are not much difference between the inherent value of a rock and a stock on the stock market, yet one thing is much more valuable than the other due to the trust people has placed on currencies and stocks, backed up by government, banks and corporations. But then, I am not very knowledgeable about this, so I will stop here.

[Randazzo]

Show some freaking responsibility.

This is ironic, considering....

Nobody blames the sheep for what happens to the flock. They blame the shepherd.

If you're smarter than all the idiots out there, and you take advantage of it, you're exploiting them. If you're doing that, you're a jerk. If you blame the buyers, you're even more of a jerk. You've already established that you're smarter than John Doe out there. Now you're expecting them to be capable of outsmarting billions of dollars of psychological research done by the most brilliant minds in the world; research done specifically to optimize the exploitation of buyers at a subconscious level. And you're blaming the buyers.

Only a child or person with a mental deficit could claim it's not their fault.

You're trying to remove responsibility from consumers, because apparently consumers are too stupid to make their own decisions. Unless a company or person outright LIES to sell a product, the fault is entirely on the consumer for making the purchase.

[shynung]

Unless a company or person outright LIES to sell a product, the fault is entirely on the consumer for making the purchase.

They come quite close. Not outright lying, but very uncomfortably close.

[YNM]

I've read the front quarter of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Why-Students-Work-Government-Financial/dp/1612680763) and to be honest today's people, according to him, are somewhat afraid with capitalism. One of it (other than hating CEOs, but he said they're not true capitalist) is by trying to get total assurances of their own life, including pensions, wages, prices etc. And probably it's being reflected here. No offence - I'm on the 'wrong' side as well according to his scheme but at least now I know that in a world where currency are prints, it's better to joint those printers as well than to living off the prints, or use those prints (including debts) to directly produce more prints.

[BlueCosmology]

Has anyone actually fallen for this absolutely obvious lie of there being someone that had a kilo of gold yet thought it was only worth 30p?

[Kryten]

Has anyone actually fallen for this absolutely obvious lie of there being someone that had a kilo of gold yet thought it was only worth 30p?

Presumably this is based on a modded minecraft server or something. I mean, he also claims that some 'large batteries' are enough to melt various metals in kilogram quantities, and comes out with some other stuff that's just sciency-sounding gibberish.

[Xannari Ferrows]

It's made of a fire brick, and two carbon rods, as well as a bit of electrical ganging. And yes, this isn't RP. This is real.

[BlueCosmology]

It's made of a fire brick, and two carbon rods, as well as a bit of electrical ganging. And yes, this isn't RP. This is real.

What battery did you use.

[Xannari Ferrows]

What battery did you use.

6V heavy duty.

[BlueCosmology]

6V heavy duty.

Nonsense. The energy required to melt kg of aluminium is ~1100kJ, if there is absolutely no energy loss. A heavy duty battery has 26ah and hence two 6V ones have an energy of ~1100kJ. They would just about manage to melt aluminium if there was absolutely no energy loss. Does your furnace feel hot? Oops, there's a huge amount of energy loss then. Clear lie.

[Xannari Ferrows]

Nonsense. The energy required to melt kg of aluminium is ~1100kJ, if there is absolutely no energy loss. A heavy duty battery has 26ah and hence two 6V ones have an energy of ~1100kJ. They would just about manage to melt aluminium if there was absolutely no energy loss. Does your furnace feel hot? Oops, there's a huge amount of energy loss then. Clear lie.

Touch two carbon rods together, then come back and say that.

[BlueCosmology]

Touch two carbon rods together, then come back and say that.

What a great response, really backed up your point well. From that logic then I've melted my entire city with my car battery. Hook yourself up to a car battery then tell me I didn't.

Sorry, in reality something called conservation of energy applies locally. Didn't happen. Isn't possible.

[Xannari Ferrows]

What a great response, really backed up your point well.

I know, so go do it before you try to say that I'm wrong. Burn your hands off while you're at it.

[Randazzo]

Nonsense. The energy required to melt kg of aluminium is ~1100kJ, if there is absolutely no energy loss. A heavy duty battery has 26ah and hence two 6V ones have an energy of ~1100kJ. They would just about manage to melt aluminium if there was absolutely no energy loss. Does your furnace feel hot? Oops, there's a huge amount of energy loss then. Clear lie.

It's actually possible.

http://lifehacker.com/build-a-homemade-electrical-arc-furnace-with-lantern-ba-1691381102

Though, to be completely fair, Mr. Ferrows did pepper just enough gibberish in there to keep up his reputation.

[Xannari Ferrows]

Wow, who is this guy? Though mine is actually a bit smaller. Still though, I figured someone else must have figured this out by now. It's not really that difficult. I'm gonna watch him now, that was awesome!

[BlueCosmology]

It's actually possible.

http://lifehacker.com/build-a-homemade-electrical-arc-furnace-with-lantern-ba-1691381102

Though, to be completely fair, Mr. Ferrows did pepper just enough gibberish in there to keep up his reputation.

It takes over 5 times as much energy to melt aluminium as it does zinc. It plain and simple isn't possible. The energy required to melt aluminium is larger than the energy contained in two 6V heavy duty batteries.

[Randazzo]

It takes over 5 times as much energy to melt aluminium as it does zinc. It plain and simple isn't possible. The energy required to melt aluminium is larger than the energy contained in two 6V heavy duty batteries.

That furnace melts steel.

[Kryten]

It's actually possible.

http://lifehacker.com/build-a-homemade-electrical-arc-furnace-with-lantern-ba-1691381102

Though, to be completely fair, Mr. Ferrows did pepper just enough gibberish in there to keep up his reputation.

It's not. If you actually watch that, the 'lantern batteries' are merely the source for the carbon electrodes, that thing is on 240V mains power.

[BlueCosmology]

That furnace melts steel.

Pretty sure it says zinc, but even so again steel takes considerably less energy to melt than aluminium, roughly half as much. I also find that, while possible, very unlikely. It seems much more likely it's either hooked up to much more than two batteries or to the mains. However while melting steel with that is unlikely, though technically possible with incredibly high energy efficiency, melting aluminium just isn't possible. Again, conservation of energy exists.

Edited June 8, 2015 by BlueCosmology

[Randazzo]

It's not. If you actually watch that, the 'lantern batteries' are merely the source for the carbon electrodes, that thing is on 240V mains power.

Ah, I see. Fair point, I didn't watch it

[BlueCosmology]

Wow, who is this guy? Though mine is actually a bit smaller. Still though, I figured someone else must have figured this out by now. It's not really that difficult. I'm gonna watch him now, that was awesome!

You knew the name of it was an arc furnace, yet you have never heard of it before you invented it yourself. Hmm....