KSP and Linux

[Fizwalker]

So, I have installed Linux for the first time. I have played KSP on Windows.... And well.... I have a voracious appetite for mods, and 32bit just wasn't cutting it anymore. After hearing rumors that Linux supports 64bit.... And as many mods as 16 GB of RAM can handle..... Well, I am here now.

I honestly kinda picked a distro kind of at random. I am a complete newb and I know next to nothing about Linux other than it is based on Unix... (which I got some training courtesy of Uncle Sam a little over a decade ago). I digress a little though. I picked up a copy of Debian 8 with the Cinnamon desktop (I am guessing that's a reference to the desktop enviroment?) through OSdisc.com.... I also have a copy of Mint-Debian on a thumb drive though I think I need to burn a DVD of that before I can install it... If I wanted to. I think I know just enough to get myself in trouble.

I guess that my question is, what do I need to know about using Linux with KSP and vis versa. Perhaps this could become a thread of what to consider when migrating from Windows over to Linux, what to consider etc for someone who knows nothing about it....

First thing I'll contribute, through trial and error is, that Debian 8, GNOME and ATI don't mix well for performance. I didn't really try playing the game per se, but just the initial menu screen was really choppy. In trying to get updated drivers for my video card, I learned that ATI recommends using the drivers that came with the OS. I've been using my HD TV as a screen, but the "Free Radeon" drivers limited me to 1260 by 440 pixels (I could be remembering the last number wrong.....) Fortunately for me, I had an nVidia 560 Ti as a backup. Other than the base drivers have told me that my 40" TV is really a 72" TV, it seems to work better. (I've downloaded the updated drivers but I haven't installed them yet.

I've kinda lept in with both feet, but if I had this to do again, I might run a dual boot system and preserve my MS Office documents and iTunes. I kinda thought that I could use Windows programs with Linux.... and I guess you can with an emulator named Wine. That said, there are music players in Linux that will play the non DRM files in my library so the iTunes thing might be a brief headache while I get that sorted out.

Anyway, what other concerns and considerations are out there when switching to Linux? Which distro is the most newbie friendly one? This doesn't apply to me, but if the person's machine has 4 GB of RAM is it worth it to switch to Linux, and if so what are the arguments for (or against)?

A final note, I started this thread to help information to be passed to users who are considering switching from Windows or OSX to Linux as to the benefits and/or pitfalls of the switch. I would appreciate it if the arguements are made with this in mind. I would appreciate it if when people contribute to this thread, they refrain from bashing other OS's.

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

My copy of Linux is, according to the disc,: Debian Live 8.0 Cinnamon

[Sandworm]

Do not pick a distro based on rumors of guesses. If you are considering linux for KSP then use the officially supported distros. Any linux beginner should start with ubuntu. Don't mess around with anything else until you figure things out. Don't use liveCDs. Don't use LiveUSB sticks. Don't attempt dual-booting. Do a proper install of standard ubuntu, update everything, then install KSP.

And have a look around the forums. This is not the first thread on this topic.

[Robotengineer]

Get Linux Mint, it's better than plain Ubuntu IMO.

[OddFunction]

Have you seen these before?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/92231-The-Linux-Thread?p=1380984#post1380984

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/98386-The-Other-Linux-Thread?p=1506880#post1506880

I'd recommend Linux Mint. Just install steam and then kerbal space program as normal. If you want CKAN, that's a few more steps, but focus on getting the game running first. It's very easy, even for newbs.

Post back if you need more help.

Also, Proprietary video card drivers are better than opensource video card drivers. ALSO ALSO, set your mouth polling rate (not DPI, thats different) to 125 or you will get mouse-screen-dragging related lag.

[ajburges]

So guys vim or emacs.

Let's not start a distro war please.

OP,

Sandworm's initial point is spot on. Stick to a well supported, active distro and stick to a common configuration. Since you are going to Linux for a single program (KSP), look at what's recommended for it. It's a transition to jump OS (anyone who tells you it's just like Windows is lying through their teeth), so don't make it harder on yourself by picking one with less help resources or by running a noval configuration. Another thing to look for as a Linux newbie is a distro with package management but any recommended distro will likely have that.

Both Ubuntu and Mint should be serviceable choices. If you have a few choices to select between, try a live disk of each for an hour an test driver functionality and feel. Though feel can be altered to taste, it is easier to start nearer to what you want. Don't play KSP at that time, but explore the window manager and device compatibility.

Edited June 10, 2015 by ajburges

[Fizwalker]

In my case, I am already frustrated by windows in particular and microsoft in general. The distro I have, I got because of the system requirements on Squad's page. Frankly, I found out, after I have the disc I have, that there is a Mint that is based on Debian (no, I did not see those threads Mega and I appreciate you bringing them forward. I wish they'd been stickied before I made my choice....) Like I said in the OP, I have a DL'd copy of Mint-Debian but it looks like I have to burn it to a disc before I can install it.

Robotengineer, ajburges, I appreciate your feedback.

Edit: This is the first time in almost 6 months that my desktop has been online.... Regardless if this was the right choice or not, I am glad I'm off of Windows....

Edited June 10, 2015 by Fizwalker

[selfish_meme]

For a complete newbie install Ubuntu first. The next thing you need to do is add proprietary drivers for your video card. The open Source drivers that are installed automatically are no good for 3D Gaming. You can find them by going to the Menu, Applications and then look for the Additional Drivers app. You can get proprietary drivers for both AMD and nVidia though as you have discovered the nVidia ones are better supported. If you have installed Ubuntu then you need to also do a couple of things (I believe Mint may already have them), you need to install Codecs for Media and stuff like truetype fonts and Java. Follow the instructions on a page like this to help you get the additional stuff you need for a full desktop experience. You don't have to follow it slavishly, but at least restricted extras.

Then add Steam and install KSP, you need to add a launcher option in steam for Linux to run the 64bit version properly. Something like this LC_ALL=C %command%_64 there are another couple of options for OpenGL mentioned in the linux support thread.

[robopilot99]

I kinda thought that I could use Windows programs with Linux.... and I guess you can with an emulator named Wine.

To clear up a misconception, Wine Is Not an Emulator. That's what wine stands for. Besides that you seem to be doing alright. Like many people have already said I recommend starting with Ubuntu. If you're already attached to the Cinnamon desktop environment you might want to try Linux Mint, a derivative of Ubuntu, as your distro. Just make sure you use the driver manager to install the proprietary drivers and you should be running in no time.

[Robotengineer]

To clear up a misconception, Wine Is Not an Emulator. That's what wine stands for. Besides that you seem to be doing alright. Like many people have already said I recommend starting with Ubuntu. If you're already attached to the Cinnamon desktop environment you might want to try Linux Mint, a derivative of Ubuntu, as your distro. Just make sure you use the driver manager to install the proprietary drivers and you should be running in no time.

I can confer that you have to have the right drivers, you may also want to get Nvidia tools of you have an Nvidia card.

[LordFerret]

So guys vim or emacs. ...

Why vi of course! lol

[steve_v]

Any debian-based distro will do what you want, the only real differentiating factors are OOTB software loadout, default configuration & community support.

I personally find mainline Debian well suited to just about anything, and run it on servers and desktops both. It's not quite as polished desktop-wise as *buntu, and the community can be a little less, ahh... welcoming, though the SNR and overall quality of information is better.

To quote:

"Ubuntu forums try to be like a coffee shop in Seattle. Debian forums strive for the charm and ambience of a skinhead bar in Bacau. We intend to keep it that way. "

Your first hurdle on any distro is going to be GPU drivers, as most contain proprietary code and are not installed by default. Many distros automate this with some kind of GUI "driver wizard", use it if it's easier but be aware it's just a frontend to the package management system.

Whatever you decide to go with (try some livecd/usb images or install in a VM to test drive) the best advice I can give is this:

GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux, no matter the 'flavour'. Learn how to use the package management tools and the command-line. You will need to sooner or later and it's better to get comfortable with this stuff... before you break the graphics drivers and need to fix things without a GUI. GUIs come in all manner of shapes and sizes, but bash is bash

Package managers are arguably the core feature of a "distribution" and can be a fairly alien concept to people used to Windows, with it's "run the app vendors installer" installation process. If you get a grip on APT, you'll be able to work with any debian-derivative, whether the particular desktop GUI provides a helper app or not.

Of course there's no reason you can't run KSP on another distro - e.g. Fedora or Slackware. It's much the same, I've run all the big distros at some stage but come back to Debian - because I am lazy, and Debian 'just works' (so long as you don't break it)

VI is the most obnoxious, counter-intuitive editor I have ever encountered. And I have my fire retardant suit

[Fizwalker]

I'm not overly attatched to Cinnamon yet. I'd be lying if I said I had a clue what I was doing.... But.... Iceweasel seems to be a lot like Firefox...

[steve_v]

Almost exactly like Firefox in fact... so much so that one might think it's just a repackage

Try a few desktops if you're not sold on Cinnamon, you can install others alongside & pick at login

[Fizwalker]

Any debian-based distro will do what you want, the only real differentiating factors are OOTB software loadout, default configuration & community support.

I personally find mainline Debian well suited to just about anything, and run it on servers and desktops both. It's not quite as polished desktop-wise as *buntu, and the community can be a little less, ahh... welcoming, though the SNR and overall quality of information is better.

To quote:

"Ubuntu forums try to be like a coffee shop in Seattle. Debian forums strive for the charm and ambience of a skinhead bar in Bacau. We intend to keep it that way. "

Your first hurdle on any distro is going to be GPU drivers, as most contain proprietary code and are not installed by default. Many distros automate this with some kind of GUI "driver wizard", use it if it's easier but be aware it's just a frontend to the package management system.

Whatever you decide to go with (try some livecd/usb images or install in a VM to test drive) the best advice I can give is this:

GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux, no matter the 'flavour'. Learn how to use the package management tools and the command-line. You will need to sooner or later and it's better to get comfortable with this stuff... before you break the graphics drivers and need to fix things without a GUI. GUIs come in all manner of shapes and sizes, but bash is bash

Package managers are arguably the core feature of a "distribution" and can be a fairly alien concept to people used to Windows, with it's "run the app vendors installer" installation process. If you get a grip on APT, you'll be able to work with any debian-derivative, whether the particular desktop GUI provides a helper app or not.

Of course there's no reason you can't run KSP on another distro - e.g. Fedora or Slackware. It's much the same, I've run all the big distros at some stage but come back to Debian - because I am lazy, and Debian 'just works' (so long as you don't break it)

VI is the most obnoxious, counter-intuitive editor I have ever encountered. And I have my fire retardant suit

Frankly, this has kinda openned my eyes in a way I haven't been since I wrote batch files to eek out the most memory on my mother's 286 just so I could play SimCity or X-Wing. I've been meaning to learn Linux for awhile now.. But I've been a little intimidated. For good or ill, the best way for me to learn is to head into the deep end and ask questions as either I sink or swim.

First question is... What is OOTB? Be kind! I'm coming out of the drug haze of Windows.......

Edited June 10, 2015 by Fizwalker

[steve_v]

Well, "sink or swim" was my first escape from Microsoft too... Slackware 3.5 on a 486 Back then just getting a GUI with 16-bit colour was a mission and there was no package management - working out library dependencies etc. was by hand...

OOTB = Out Of The Box. Ubuntu aims to provide a comfortable default desktop and lots of clicky helper apps, while Debian is more about sensible base system and infrastructure - as testified to by the sheer number of spin-offs and derivatives.

Edited June 10, 2015 by steve_v

[Fizwalker]

Not anymore!

If I had known and had been able to use Linux back then......No, back then I was still stuck on my mother's machine.... Which was using DOS 5.0. She went away on business for a week, and I upgraded her system to Win 95 so I could play Red Alert with good graphics.... and when I reverted back to DOS 5, I forgot the sound drivers.... >.> Oh and did I mention I was banned from her computer prior to her trip? ... Yeah that turned out real well.....

[LordFerret]

Iceweasel is Firefox, it's a matter only of rebranding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation_software_rebranded_by_the_Debian_project

The only issue I have with Iceweasel is that a few websites I've been to have complained my browser is not recognized. Ha. If it becomes an issue for you, just open whatever package manager you use and install Firefox.

https://wiki.debian.org/Firefox

By the way, the rest of the packages in the suite are nice also.

- - - Updated - - -

... VI is the most obnoxious, counter-intuitive editor I have ever encountered. And I have my fire retardant suit

The thing I've found about VI, is that any Unix blend, or Linux blend, or Mac system, or any animal remotely like any of those previously mentioned that you run across out there - has VI on it. As a consultant, I always knew I could rely on that, it's always there.

Pros and cons for both. The one thing I'll will acknowledge is that VI(M) is an editor outright, where EMACS is actually more a full-blown IDE.

[-ELF-]

I personally play KSP on Linux Mint Rebecca, with ATI graphics and AMD processor.

Game looks pretty smooth, however once I will bring myself together and try to fix some graphic glitches I have.

Yes, I need to mention, it is not a highend PC, so I am playing on Fast graphics...

[RuBisCO]

I use mint 17.1, in the same boat as ELF, although I have a PC that techraptor calls "the Panzer"

Some of the graphical effects like atmospheric heating the Linux catalyst drivers don't handle well, as well as Unity is not optimize for the AMD cpus that are good multi-threaders but poor single threading.

[steve_v]

The only issue I have with Iceweasel is that a few websites I've been to have complained my browser is not recognized. Ha. If it becomes an issue for you, just open whatever package manager you use and install Firefox.

Meh, just change your user-agent. Aside, that wiki page is a bit old, no? there's been no 'firefox' since sarge. Or do you have a secret repo I don't know about?

While I can usually remember how to use VI, that doesn't mean I have to like it... I'll use it if it's all I have on hand, but the very next step is to install something that doesn't expect you to remember a bunch of key combos and commands for basic functions. Most of the time that 'something else' is midnight commander. Fond memories of DOS & a fine file manager / editor etc. in it's own right.

Given a VI/Emacs choice, I'll go for "neither, unless backed into a corner."

- - - Updated - - -

Some of the graphical effects like atmospheric heating the Linux catalyst drivers don't handle well...

FWIW, the atmo/re-entry effects are a dog with an NVIDIA card too - I suspect it's more the games OpenGL implementation than the driver or GPU here.

[Harry Rhodan]

First thing I'll contribute, through trial and error is, that Debian 8, GNOME and ATI don't mix well for performance. I didn't really try playing the game per se, but just the initial menu screen was really choppy. In trying to get updated drivers for my video card, I learned that ATI recommends using the drivers that came with the OS. I've been using my HD TV as a screen, but the "Free Radeon" drivers limited me to 1260 by 440 pixels (I could be remembering the last number wrong.....) Fortunately for me, I had an nVidia 560 Ti as a backup. Other than the base drivers have told me that my 40" TV is really a 72" TV, it seems to work better. (I've downloaded the updated drivers but I haven't installed them yet.

I used the fglrx drivers manually from the AMD page and it worked quite well. Until there was an official update to them in the package manager that killed my GUI. Thankfully completely removing the drivers and reinstalling the newer ones from the official repos made it work again.

So guys vim or emacs.

Nano.

[soulsource]

Regarding proprietary drivers, the situation as far as I see it from my experience:

Intel only has open source drivers, and sadly they aren't on par with their proprietary Windows drivers...

nVidia open source drivers aren't really usable, as nVidia isn't involved in their development. So, if you have an nVidia card, the proprietary drivers are the way to go. They are about as fast as their Windows drivers, from what I've read (can't judge, don't have nVidia or Windows)

AMD is the main developer of the open source radeon drivers. The reason they are not as fast as the closed source AMD drivers have something to do with third party intellectual property that AMD mustn't disclose, so they had to write around some things they could use directly in their proprietary drivers. On the other hand, the current proprietary AMD drivers, as fast as they might be compared to the open source drivers, are like an anthill: full of bugs. So, if your GPU is fast enough, for AMD the open source drivers are way better regarding stability and desktop integration. With one exception:

The open source AMD drivers are currently broken on Debian 8, at least with Southern Islands cards. Here's the bug report. So, on Debian 8, if you're using an AMD Southern Island card, you'll have to use the proprietary drivers, or install a fixed mesa package manually, but that's a thing I wouldn't recommend a new user to do.

So, to install the proprietary AMD drivers on Debian 8 (they don't work with Gnome 3 btw), check the Debian Wiki.

Edit: Emacs

Edited June 10, 2015 by soulsource

[Green Baron]

Debian is a "sporty" Distro because it's totally open source and free of any copyright (see: copyleft, GNU GPL). If you want to have better driver support for gaming i'd rather suggest Mint or Ubuntu, that will probably solve your performance issue as well if you use the graphics-drivers from the vendors (see their homepage for installation). If you can switch the nvidia card do so, nvidia has very good linux support, but for KSP even Intel HD graphics will do.

I must make something clear, without any offence: Linux is NOT based on Unix, it was completely written from scratch, in the beginning by Linus Torvalds, today by many of the worlds best programmers. And then, unless windows that takes total control of your computer and does "everything" for you, in Linux you should really learn the basics of your operating system. There are many good books about Ubuntu or derivatives (or Debian, but be prepared to do do more things "manually"), get one, have fun experiencing that *you* can control your computer.

Linux itself is not a graphical system, there is a pile of window managers and graphical environments that you can freely choose from (see Xorg), but you should know how to use the console interface, type commands, watch performance, start and stop programms, look at files etc. *without" graphical help. Believe me, you will have more fun with your computer as something that yesterday appeared as a crash to you tomorrow is just a restart of the window manager (for example). It starts with installing a graphics driver (from the console) and does not end with nrowsing through logs to find an offending process ...

In the beginning, don't use wine, wait until you know more about your system or frustration may be the result. Use dual boot instead.

Do use dual boot, it's sophisticated and no problems are to be expected. Again, i'd recommend Mint or Ubuntu, download a USB-Image for install and install it. Linux is the best documented operating system that exists. After install switch to a console (Ctrl-Alt-F1), log in and read the man-pages for the follwing commands (enter man <command>):

List files: ls, Change directoy: cd, Copy file: cp, Move/rename file: mv, Delete file: rm, display file: less.

As Steve_v pointed out you should learn the package management. Install a frontend buy typing in:

sudo apt-get install aptitude

That make your life easier in the beginnig when you look for drivers from the repository (nvidia !).

man apitude

will help you. When you can handle that, man apt-get and its "see alsos" :-)

Learn an editor (console text based ! Those long haired bearded gurus use vi or emacs), i'll suggest nano which is easier to use. If it's not there install it

sudo aptitude install nano

Do not care about cinnamon, xfce, lxde, gnome, kde or one of the numerous other environments. They are just for clicking with the mouse.

So, that's my recommendation for starting with debian. Install the nvidia card, that'll make your life easier. I think that debian has an nvidia driver in it's repositories (Mint and Ubuntu do have) bust you must add the non-free channels to your sources.list :-)

Edit: like soulsource said, the open source nouveau driver (for nvidia cards) is second best choice (understatement :-)), use the proprietary driver, if available from repositories.

Have fun in a new wolrd !

k

Edited June 10, 2015 by kemde

[WeirdCulture]

So guys vim or emacs.

ed, man! man ed!

[soulsource]

Debian is a "sporty" Distro because it's totally open source and free of any copyright (see: copyleft, GNU GPL). If you want to have better driver support for gaming i'd rather suggest Mint or Ubuntu, that will probably solve your performance issue as well if you use the graphics-drivers from the vendors (see their homepage for installation). If you can switch the nvidia card do so, nvidia has very good linux support, but for KSP even Intel HD graphics will do.

To be more precise, Debian per default installs only open source software, but it does ship closed source software as well. That's especially important for users of AMD graphics cards and broadcom network cards, as the open source radeon and broadcom drivers requires non-free firmware. So, to get the open source radeon driver to work with 3D accelleration, one needs first to enable the contrib and non-free repositories in sources.list, update the list of packages (there's a refresh button in synaptic, or on the command line run "apt-get update" as root), and install the firmware-linux-nonfree package ("apt-get install firmware-linux-nonfree", again as root).

(As said, if you have a Southern Islands card, forget the open source radeon driver on Debian 8 until this bug gets fixed, as it will crash regularly.)

Enabling the contrib and non-free repos will give you extremely easy ways to install the proprietary drivers as well. For AMD you'll then have packages named fglrx-driver and fglrx-control available, and for nvidia there's nvidia-driver (or some nvidia-legacy-*** packages for older drivers for older cards).

For AMD cards it might be necessary to run "aticonfig --initial" as root after installing the proprietary drivers.

A word of warning: On all distributions that have their own package managers, it's in nearly all cases the best to install software from the repositories, even if it's older than software found on the vender website. The reason is, that if you install software from the repositories, there's usually a way to cleanly uninstall it again, as it uses the native package format of the distribution. If you download an installer from somewhere on the web (ok, let's be clear here: I'm talking about the AMD or nVidia graphics driver installers) there might be (for the graphics drivers: there is) no clean way to uninstall the software again. This might (for the graphics drivers: will definitely) cause issues when upgrading the distribution to a newer release.

Edited June 10, 2015 by soulsource