The 5th Generation Fighter challenge [FAR]

[tetryds]

Since that was your top speed run you don't get any points up to mach 2.0, the points only start rolling in once you exceed the requirement. so mach 2.1 is worth 2 points, mach 2.2 is worth 4 etc. unless your saying that that was a cruise speed run which is a bit improbable. Unless your saying that you accomplished a super cruise of mach 2.

So with super cruise that would be 10 points (mach 2), for top speed 46 points (mach 4.3), TWR would give you 1 point, and 9 g turns give you 5 points.

So 62 points is your interim tally? Could you post your super cruise run? Also if you super cruise at mach 2.2 then that's 12 points not 10 because there is no limit which says that super cruise is only between mach 1 and 2, it needs to be sustainable on cruise power that's all the rules say

Ahh, top speed and supercruise are different things, lol I messed up on the counting.

I guess I can supercruise at Mach 2.6 or something, will check tomorrow, thanks for fixing up my confusion, I did not figure out that it was two different tests.

Btw, supercruise 1/3rd of thrust is on the top of the 50% max thrust of the TurboJets? And am I forced to use the fuel tanks anywhere? Or is it just how much extra fuel it can carry?

Will tweak and test it again tomorrow, let's see what happens.

Edit:

Also, 48 points for droptanks seems a bit too much, but if I did not read anything wrong again then yey.

Edited June 24, 2015 by tetryds

[Halsfury]

Also, 48 points for droptanks seems a bit too much, but if I did not read anything wrong again then yey

well you have 1,200 litres per drop tank and 2 drop tanks so 1,200 x 2 = 2,400 divided by 50 = 48

Maybe I should nerf that, can you super cruise with all that stuff? If not it might be better to make the bonus for super cruise with payload significant so that you don't want to make the trade off any more.

It's still a new challenge so I have to figure out just how to balance it, I don't want to reduce your points either but the ease with which you can pull that off...

I thought that getting that much fuel into the air would be hard, after all each litre is 5 kilograms of fuel so you can lift 12 tons extra?

Ok I'm going to go see what happens when I do something similar.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Halsfury

[Halsfury]

Ok I built my drop tanks, the plane can take off with them (landing doesn't need to be tested with drop tanks they can be thrown away beforehand anyway).

each one is filled with 960 litres, or 4,800kg of fuel so this gives a total of 38.4 points and it flies like a milk truck.

The range is around 3 hours (despite what the screen shot says) for 2 points

But then I used a time warp speed of 2x and this happened, the good news is that they separated cleanly

Now my interim tally is 37 from previous tests added to 40.4 points for a grand total of 77.4. then 10 bonus points for a meagre super cruise when loaded with the drop tanks of mach 1.04 as pictured above so 87.4 is my total so far.

Now I'm going to go and try to top tetryds top speed

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Ahh, top speed and supercruise are different things, lol I messed up on the counting.

I guess I can supercruise at Mach 2.6 or something, will check tomorrow, thanks for fixing up my confusion, I did not figure out that it was two different tests.

Btw, supercruise 1/3rd of thrust is on the top of the 50% max thrust of the TurboJets? And am I forced to use the fuel tanks anywhere? Or is it just how much extra fuel it can carry?

Will tweak and test it again tomorrow, let's see what happens.

Yes super cruise is 1/3rd thrust on the turbo jets when they are 50% limited, you'll know you're doing it right when they don't produce the afterburner effect, which was partly the reason for the choice. Any more that 1/3rd throttle would produce after burning effects

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Well this makes life really hard...

friction is tough to deal with

Edited June 25, 2015 by Halsfury

[Cinocal]

I've got a single engine setup that meets all the criteria using a turbojet @ 49.5%.

Needs a few more flights but specs are.

11.2 T

Max @ 10km Mach 3+

Supercruise @ 10km Mach 2.4 @ 1/3 Throttle.

Can carry drop tanks, which turn into awesome cluster bombs when dropped (unintended bonus!)

Transonic drag w/o tanks .44, with .56.

9G capable

1:1 power @ 150+kN

[Halsfury]

Can carry drop tanks, which turn into awesome cluster bombs when dropped (unintended bonus!)

Same happens to my drop tanks, the wind just catches them after a few seconds of flight and then they rip

Post some pictures we'd love to see them and craft files are always appreciated too.

[tetryds]

Oh O forgot the extra fuel on the NCS adapter.

Also, does this fuel need to be external or I can pack it inside of my cargo bay?

That would make supercruise much more efficient.

Now that I thought more about it, the droptank points don't seem absurd, as anyone could do that.

The only problem is when you dedicate a design to farm points from it, maybe make it so that you only get points if you supercruise with them.

Edited June 25, 2015 by tetryds

[FourGreenFields]

Maybe diminishing returns would be the way to go for droptanks.

The added weight and drag does increase the fuel you need to fly, so the first 50 litres of a giant drop tank are going to be gone pretty soon compared to the only 50 litres of a normal drop tank.

EDIT: Or just measure the added range EDIT END;

(Also, the specifications only ask for supercruise with payload - theoretically that would mean any external payload, even a lone 2kg bomb. Maybe make a limit of supercruising with a droptank of a set size, and possibly added points for more payload with which you can supercruise)

EDIT2: Is "supercruise with external payload" also set at 10km, or can we do this at a different altitude?

Edited June 25, 2015 by FourGreenFields

[Cinocal]

Had to up my wing mass on the main wings to 1.1 to safely be able to yank and bank at high G. Will hold 10g now even super sonic.

Ship mass went up from 11.2 to 12.6t.

Shown with hardpoints but no tanks mounted.

[Halsfury]

Oh O forgot the extra fuel on the NCS adapter.

Also, does this fuel need to be external or I can pack it inside of my cargo bay?

That would make supercruise much more efficient.

Now that I thought more about it, the droptank points don't seem absurd, as anyone could do that.

The only problem is when you dedicate a design to farm points from it, maybe make it so that you only get points if you supercruise with them.

Well a drop tank is kinda only external, I suppose you could have an internal drop tank, then pop open the bay and eject it, but why would you want to waste the space on a bay on a small ship?

FourGreenFields asked about what counted as super cruise with payload, when I was designing the challenge I meant super cruise with full payload measured in litres of fuel, now if you have a bomb of 2000 kg then you'd have to calculate how many litres of fuel that would be so 2000/5=400 litres of fuel would make 2000kg.

Also I meant that super cruise with payload would be with the full design payload, i.e. the same amount with which you did the fuel lifting challenge.

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Had to up my wing mass on the main wings to 1.1 to safely be able to yank and bank at high G. Will hold 10g now even super sonic.

Ship mass went up from 11.2 to 12.6t.

Shown with hardpoints but no tanks mounted.

http://i.imgur.com/K10wuqT.jpg

That sure is a new approach to area ruling, I like how the mid section is waisted just by using adaptors and no homemade anti drag blisters.

Also that wave drag area is seriously low at just 0.43m^2

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maybe make it so that you only get points if you supercruise with them.

Yeah I was thinking about this. It might be the right way to go, in fact that's just the right kind of nerf, not arbitrary or meaningless either, it's just a reasonable design requirement

Edited June 26, 2015 by Halsfury

[FourGreenFields]

Does "Instantaneous maximum g forces are not scored as of yet though this may change." mean positive specific excess power during a 9G turn, or only that it isn't 9G during a short wobble?

[Cinocal]

Most likely the latter.

[tetryds]

I think that the points list could be changed to highlight what gives points, for example:

Super Cruise: Every 0.1 over Mach 1 while in supercruise is worth 1 point (Super Cruise @30% thrust, inc 50% nerf for turbojets).

[FourGreenFields]

Those basic jets are driving me crazy.

Is it intendet that the inside of the basic jets doesn't get an voxels, but the inside of the turbo jets does? I've been able to make my latest design more aerodynamic, simply by replacing one jet with a structural fuselage.

[Phearlock]

This seems a very cold-war era challenge rather than 5th gen. That's when we were trying to go really really really fast. I'll submit a design but, I'll rather go for subsonic turn rate while trying to barely meet the speed requirements.

[tetryds]

This seems a very cold-war era challenge rather than 5th gen. That's when we were trying to go really really really fast. I'll submit a design but, I'll rather go for subsonic turn rate while trying to barely meet the speed requirements.

The only thing that could be done about it is making supermaneuverability a requirement* but then we would have almost no entries.

Not that it's too hard but stock jet engines gimbal is too small even with FAR's 1.5x boost.

*Good-looking VTOLs are exempt from any requirements.

[xrayfishx]

Will you make an AJE category, too? I cba to play non-RO, but I made a plane that was at least inspired by this challenge, even if it might not meet all of its requirements yet.

While trying to find out its range I accidentally flew it from Cape Canaveral to Cape Verde. And I'm sure it could do the rest of the way to Africa with a better flight path.

[FourGreenFields]

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/441699588263388827/DDA7F29EBD49D231C0439C0ADAA4464ECA188590/

Does that count? It was still entirely stable, as only some structural intakes exploded.

[tetryds]

@FourGreenFields: I don't think it's very safe to have exploding parts

Fuel tanks validation:

51,2 points of fuel payload (3,2 points from the NCS adapters I forgot to count the last time).

Edit: I have no idea why my FAR says Froude while showing 0.15.3.1, but even if it was the previous version that does not change any flight characteristics at all.

Edited June 28, 2015 by tetryds

[Hodo]

Not sure what you are going to allow and not allow so this is an experimental craft I have been working on.... Before the patch now I am stuck because I have something spitting errors like its a camel eating pop rocks.

It has 3 engines total, 2 of those basic jets for its VTOL, and 1 Turbojet for main engine.

If I can get somethings fixed in my install I may change out those weak stock jets for a mod vtol engine that has the same power as both of them but is ONLY for VTOL.

[Hodo]

The other variation on the design I discussed has this engine....

But this is the preliminary tests with the F-146A Jinete

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[Halsfury]

I have no idea why my FAR says Froude while showing 0.15.3.1, but even if it was the previous version that does not change any flight characteristics at all.

All the nuFAR versions have nicknames which must be inspired by the kerbal name generator, I have no idea why but it helps keep track of the versions. They all have names beginning with F at any rate

EDIT:

Maybe I'll find out more about AJE and make a leaderboard and adjust the rules for it, but for now everything is legal so long as it uses the 2 jet engines which are stock.

Also Hodo, I'm a really big fan of VTOL aircraft, but you've got too many engines, if you want VTOL 1 engine is all you get for VTOL and 1 for horizontal thrust.

BULLETIN: Also if anyone has skills with gimp or photoshop and some free time, would it be perhaps possible to get a sig medal designed for this challenge?

Edited June 29, 2015 by Halsfury

[tetryds]

The FAR version names are the names of engineers or scientists who developed important improvements on the areas of aerodynamics and fluid dynamics, in alphabetical order

It was weird that I had the name of the previous version but the number of the latest, minor thing.

No photoshop skills sorry.

I am not sure if adding AJE right now would be good, maybe for a next challenge it can be AJE-only.

[Hodo]

Also Hodo, I'm a really big fan of VTOL aircraft, but you've got too many engines, if you want VTOL 1 engine is all you get for VTOL and 1 for horizontal thrust.

Ok cool, what about the second craft, would that engine be acceptable?

[Hodo]

So I have done some reworking of the design and I think this meets the requirements. It is a VTOL/STOVL 5th gen single seat fighter WITH internal weapons bay.

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It comes in a short version for carrier work and in a long version for airforce operations with room for 5 500lb bombs internally or several A2A missiles.

[Halsfury]

So I have done some reworking of the design and I think this meets the requirements. It is a VTOL/STOVL 5th gen single seat fighter WITH internal weapons bay.

It comes in a short version for carrier work and in a long version for airforce operations with room for 5 500lb bombs internally or several A2A missiles.

Ok, that looks great, and within challenge rules, I won't hold the VTOL engine to the 50% throttle limitation because it's hard enough as it is.

Now you need to screenshot the various qualification tests and points tests.

EDIT: In other news my design is coming to maturity, I've done some tweaking and reduced the wave drag below 1m^2 which nicely made the aircraft super manoeuvrable at the same time (moving the wing forward and inward)

Now I have only to move the tailplanes out to a point where they provide more control authority in high AoA situations

Edited June 30, 2015 by Halsfury