What's With The Hate?

[Geschosskopf]

So, I have been absent from this community for a long time. I remember it being pretty satisfied with Squad, and Squad appreciating the support. Now I come back and there is a lot of hate towards Squad now it seems. I have no idea where it came from, or why it's here. Why have KSP fans suddenly just went against the devs?

It's a lot of reasons. Different people have become annoyed at different times for different reasons. The bottom line is that through a number of chaotic recent changes, which arguably have made the game rather less fun, stable, and playable, Squad has managed to stir up some level of resentment in pretty much everybody.

In addition, the community has been riven by faction because an issue that one group finds intolerable another group takes as holy writ and is willing to kill over, unable to hold a rational discussion on the merits at all. So now we have 2 armed camps, one of haters and one of zealots, both of whom complain loudly and do their best to insult the other. Their rants both ways take up much of the forum.

In between, we have a largely silent population that is willing to roll with Squad's punches but which is becoming increasingly disgusted with the rudderless course of KSP development, the frequent game-breaking changes, the introduction of new bugs instead of the fixing of old ones, and the resulting turmoil in the forum.

[FlyingPete]

I've always thought the version numbering was a little optimistic. Really, 0.90 or even 1.0 should have been the final alpha (considering the big aero overhaul and resource mining that were brought in at 1.0) with a beta version following. The true '1.0' should be bug fixes to the existing features and nothing more.

[Windspren]

And now this thread is one of the most popular on the forums.

[Lord Aurelius]

I wouldn't really say there's much hate, but there is a lot of concern for the future of the game and frustration with the devs based on how they handled Curse, 0.90 and 1.0 (and now the PS4 announcement), and also with the fact that by and large the devs appear to be distant with the community and haven't done a very good job with communication and PR around these issues.

The general tone of negativity likely to a large degree comes from the fact that when Squad announced their intent to go for 1.0, the community loudly voiced their concern and Squad basically ignored it. When 1.0 came out with some major bugs and a serious lack of polish and balance (i.e. another early access update, but not anything like a 1.0 release), many community members felt that Squad didn't really care what they said or really knew what they were doing, and so burned a lot of goodwill with the community. In this light, the community (understandably IMHO) is concerned with the future of the game and how the PS4 development is going to (further) affect the PC version when the game we have now still needs so much work. The recent (major) aero rebalances in 1.0-1.0.4 also haven't helped either, since the game is still in a major state of flux and craft that worked fine in 1.0 failed in 1.0.2, and the same thing happened from 1.0.2 to 1.0.4.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Lord Aurelius

[Xannari Ferrows]

It is because what SQUAD has done is innovative for the stock release. There's a lot of new things, and without feedback from the audience, it would be more difficult to refine those things, whatever they might be.

People expect the devs to get everything right on the first try. No simulator of this magnitude is without bugs, and some may be annoying, which is fine. However, if it is something you've never experienced before, it is probably related to the new features, so you should calmly file a bug report and leave it at that.

But ya know, that's too hard.

[r4pt0r]

I've always thought the version numbering was a little optimistic. Really, 0.90 or even 1.0 should have been the final alpha (considering the big aero overhaul and resource mining that were brought in at 1.0) with a beta version following. The true '1.0' should be bug fixes to the existing features and nothing more.

We tried to stop it.

And this is what max said

https://twitter.com/maxmaps/status/558878971019132928

Edited June 28, 2015 by r4pt0r

[FlowerChild]

For me anyways, it basically comes down to:

-KSP went Beta with 0.9, Squad said there would be several betas to follow.

-Squad changes mind and announces out of the blue that there will be only one beta release (already out at that point), and that next release would be the official release.

-Many people on the forum see that and warn Squad the game isn't ready.

-Squad says "trust us, we know what we're doing", and that's about it by way of explanation.

-Official release comes out, is extremely buggy and unpolished, and is followed by a rapid series of rather radically game changing patches that don't seem to have a clear intent behind them, instead appear to be entirely reactionary, tend to introduce more problems than they resolve, and appear to be extremely rushed, even when it was said with the last one (I mean 1.03, not that 1.04 quick fix), that they were going to take their time and make sure they got it right.

I think people are rightfully frustrated over this, and that's why stuff like the PS4 announcement received such a negative response. I don't think that many of us really care either way whether a console port is released, but given the above, took it as a bit of a slap in the face that Squad would consider that something we'd get excited about. I think Squad tends to exasperate this situation by not really acknowledging it, and instead making statements about the "overwhelming positive" reaction they've received about things, making folks feel like they aren't being heard.

Personally, I really think Squad needs to get things sorted internally and focus on putting out an actual stable and polished release that won't change dramatically again in a few weeks time, to calm this all down. At present they're just burning through the momentum that they built up with the community that should have helped greatly in getting hype rolling about the release. As it is, fans are creating stuff for this released game, whether it be vehicles, content, or tutorials to help new players out, only to have it rapidly invalidated resulting in wasted effort, and what should be a very positive post-release buzz is fizzling and turning sour instead.

I guess you can blame the mass of people that represents the community for being so negative these days, but really, I doubt you're going to change how massive numbers of people behave in any significant way. I think it's therefore more constructive to look at what Squad has been doing, how it's lead to things getting to this point, and how that can be rectified moving forward.

Edited June 28, 2015 by FlowerChild

[basic.syntax]

We tried to stop it.

And this is what max said https://twitter.com/maxmaps/status/558878971019132928

To that I want to add this link to HarvesteR's excellent post on reddit, detailing what "going 1.0" meant.

[stevehead]

Hate to be blunt with a game I love, but when I fire up the latest version (1.0.4), freshly installed without a single mod, and get bombarded with NullRefs in the log (aka. the parachute bug) suggests that Squad doesn't care enough to deliver a quality product anymore. The obvious bugs that slip by their supposed QA/testing into releases are what annoys me the most, that and how we still have an early-access game despite being labeled as a completed product... the game still has several major releases to go before it even stands a chance to be "release worthy".

[FlowerChild]

To that I want to add this link to HarvesteR's excellent post on reddit, detailing what "going 1.0" meant.

I hadn't actually seen that one before. The unfortunate irony of the situation is that I suspect pressure increased even further post 1.0 due to its unfinished state.

[klgraham1013]

I hadn't actually seen that one before. The unfortunate irony of the situation is that I suspect pressure increased even further post 1.0 due to its unfinished state.

I do wonder about that considering the unfinished state didn't really affect reviews. If Squad are simply looking at media reviews and sales, they probably feel fairly proud of their decision to go 1.0.

[basic.syntax]

I hadn't actually seen that one before. The unfortunate irony of the situation is that I suspect pressure increased even further post 1.0 due to its unfinished state.

Your earlier post said "buggy and unpolished" - and to that, Squad apologized with / in the 1.0.1 patch notes:

We've just published KSP v1.0.1. This is a small revision patch to address some of the most noticeable bugs we encountered since the release of 1.0.

Some of these we knew about for a while, but couldn't fix in time for the release (as we approach publishing time, the risk of code-breaking and delaying the entire release outweighs any benefits in the potential fix), others we found out about during the weekend livestreams, and some others we found from your own feedback.

This patch isn't meant to cover every single bug, of course, just the more relevant ones. We're going to keep on with the bugfixing and tweaking as we move into development of version 1.1.

The concluding statement "as we move into development of version 1.1" ties into the Reddit post. They aren't done, they know it has problems, 1.0.3 most recently says that they keep working to improve the product.

[Windspren]

Right now there's three kinds of complaints on the forums.

1. The good, well structured constructive criticism made by people who actually know how to play the game (the game needs more fixes for bugs)

2. The questions from new players (is this supposed to happen?)

3. The random complaints from people who don't even know how to play the game (my rockets flips this game is broken me no like)

[I_Killed_Jeb]

It is because what SQUAD has done is innovative for the stock release. There's a lot of new things, and without feedback from the audience, it would be more difficult to refine those things, whatever they might be.

People expect the devs to get everything right on the first try. No simulator of this magnitude is without bugs, and some may be annoying, which is fine. However, if it is something you've never experienced before, it is probably related to the new features, so you should calmly file a bug report and leave it at that.

But ya know, that's too hard.

yea it's super innovative to release a beta product as 1.0

your absurd reduction of people's opinions and positions invalidate your own

[FlowerChild]

I do wonder about that considering the unfinished state didn't really affect reviews. If Squad are simply looking at media reviews and sales, they probably feel fairly proud of their decision to go 1.0.

Yeah, I wonder about that as well. Reviewers tend to usually play the game at a very superficial level and don't seem to be aware of how messy things really are.

I personally think Squad *should* care though due to the damage it's doing to their "word of mouth" campaign that I mentioned previously. It may only be a small percentage of the more fanatical fanbase that is complaining (I include myself in that group), but those are the same people that create the stuff that gets more casual players excited about a game for various reasons.

Like, a small fraction of a percent of a game community winds up being a Scott Manley, but how much good has he done for promoting the game? How much damage then is done when much of his "Career Mode for Beginners" video series ends up being invalidated by radical changes to aero post release?

I suspect it's next to impossible to measure that kind of thing, but I also suspect the impact is significant regardless.

The concluding statement "as we move into development of version 1.1" ties into the Reddit post. They aren't done, they know it has problems, 1.0.3 most recently says that they keep working to improve the product.

That's all well and good, and it's all well and good for Harv to say that going 1.0 makes no difference, but obviously it does make a HUGE difference in how people perceive a game. I'm not really interested in arguing whether that's right or wrong, but I think you will likely acknowledge that it's happening regardless.

Edited June 28, 2015 by FlowerChild

[I_Killed_Jeb]

To that I want to add this link to HarvesteR's excellent post on reddit, detailing what "going 1.0" meant.

that post really only emphasizes how out of touch they have become

[Xannari Ferrows]

yea it's super innovative to release a beta product as 1.0

your absurd reduction of people's opinions and positions invalidate your own

KSP is ever evolving; there will truly never be an official release. Think about that and try again.

EDIT: Just realized that your statement actually isn't a reply to the comment... so nevermind.

[zekes]

I'm not hating, I actually couldn't be happier with the current KSP apart from the crashes...

[kiwi1960]

There is a saying... at least here in New Zealand... Squad is suffering the "tall poppy syndrome"....

When it was the underdog, everyone supported them and loved them... you could come onto the forums and smell the love... but then, version 1.0 came out, and like a poppy flower that had gotten too big, people wanted... no, felt...they wanted to cut them down to size. You see the tall poppy syndrome everywhere on this planet, people are down to earth and then they win a few million in the lottery and others say they have changed... when all that has happened is they are tired of people asking for handouts, so they say they have changed and start hating them (after they said no to a handout)...

The fact is, Squad hasn't changed... the love for the game and those that play it is still there, its the end user that has changed... they expect far too much from mere humans simply because if a game is at version 1.0.0 then it should be perfect, but it won't ever be, they only thing that has changed is the expectations from those that play the game. The Squad logo is perfect for this next comment... they are only mere imperfect humans... NOT monkey's.

Microsoft was, IMHO, much worse. I remember buy a new version of Windows, lets say, XP, getting home and installing it then having to download so many patches that it still haunts me to this day, a few hours to install it, then nearly eight hours on a super slow connection to get the patches... I ended up hating them for that, and I am justified in that hate. These days my connection is faster, but the hate remains and always will.

Squad does the best it can with what it has, they don't have the resources of Microsoft but even so, they are a damned sight faster with fixing the game and that is something everyone should appreciate... bugs are annoying yes, but to me, half the fun is working WITH the bug and finding a solution for the bug while still enjoying the game. Its a challenge.

Have people become so lazy that they want it easy right form the get go?

HOWEVER, having said that... in for a penny, in for a pound... I have a bigger problem with the moderators on this forum than I do with Squad. More than once I have had a thread closed because of some rule or other, only to see later on that others are allowed to get away with it... so, Love the game, Love Squad... but I am reluctant to post most times because of the way the posting rules are enforced or not... and its not just me, I see others being told off for this or that and later, I see others getting away with the exact same thing. Maybe you can get away with it if you suck up to the Moderators, but not me, I'm going to be 55 in a few weeks time and I don't suck up to anyone that (appears) to be younger than me... to me... the Forums are a bigger problem than the game.

For me, the game is, and always will be perfect. I'm happy with it, but the forums... maybe that is why the hate exists, not the game, but the forums.

However... I'll plod along... I'll take the good with the bad. Close my thread, no problem... I'll just wait for someone to post something similar and post there.

"nuff said"

[Windspren]

I find that the moderators are helpful and friendly.

[Claw]

HOWEVER, having said that... in for a penny, in for a pound... I have a bigger problem with the moderators on this forum than I do with Squad. More than once I have had a thread closed because of some rule or other, only to see later on that others are allowed to get away with it... so, Love the game, Love Squad... but I am reluctant to post most times because of the way the posting rules are enforced or not... and its not just me, I see others being told off for this or that and later, I see others getting away with the exact same thing. Maybe you can get away with it if you suck up to the Moderators, but not me, I'm going to be 55 in a few weeks time and I don't suck up to anyone that (appears) to be younger than me... to me... the Forums are a bigger problem than the game.

I'm sorry to hear that. And I already know there's nothing I can say or do to ease your mind. We are also not a bunch of monkey automatons bandying about on the forums. We are humans, and we aren't necessarily able to see all and hear all. Nor do we wish to "keep down" the forums. I can't swear that rules are always 100% enforced in a perfectly balanced manner in every circumstance, again because we are all human.

Also, perhaps in a more constructive manner, you could explain what the moderators have done to promote hate on the forums, because that certainly isn't what we want. Nearly all the hate I see on the forums is how people like or hate MechJeb, like or hate FAR, like or hate x64, like or hate what Squad decides to do with their own game, and so on. If you feel you are being unduly attacked by a moderator, we have a process of review.

We do, in fact, have moderators on the team that are about your age. I'm also sorry if that's a measuring factor of what's a "good moderator" for you. Not that age is a strict measure of who is "above" who, and who deserves being sucked up to, because none of the moderators should be getting sucked up to anyway.

Cheers,

~Claw

Edited June 28, 2015 by Claw

[Zucal]

HOWEVER, having said that... in for a penny, in for a pound... I have a bigger problem with the moderators on this forum than I do with Squad. More than once I have had a thread closed because of some rule or other, only to see later on that others are allowed to get away with it... so, Love the game, Love Squad... but I am reluctant to post most times because of the way the posting rules are enforced or not... and its not just me, I see others being told off for this or that and later, I see others getting away with the exact same thing. Maybe you can get away with it if you suck up to the Moderators, but not me, I'm going to be 55 in a few weeks time and I don't suck up to anyone that (appears) to be younger than me... to me... the Forums are a bigger problem than the game.

The moderators here are the best in any community I've ever seen. The reason some threads are closed and some aren't is because some are more relevant at a particular time, some develop flamewars that necessitate a closing, some are in the wrong place or posted for the wrong reasons. They deal with things on a case-by-case basis, so it's no wonder that not everything is always consistent. There's a difference between being civil/obeying the community rules, and sucking up to the mods.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Zucal

[SoWeMeetAgain]

I thought I bought a finished product, I got a beta version. I am paying to beta test a product.

It's fun though, but I do feel a teeny bit cheated.

[worir4]

Positive forum movement any one?

Let's all be friends and not hate. =)

[I_Killed_Jeb]

There is a saying... at least here in New Zealand... Squad is suffering the "tall poppy syndrome"....

When it was the underdog, everyone supported them and loved them... you could come onto the forums and smell the love... but then, version 1.0 came out, and like a poppy flower that had gotten too big, people wanted... no, felt...they wanted to cut them down to size. You see the tall poppy syndrome everywhere on this planet, people are down to earth and then they win a few million in the lottery and others say they have changed... when all that has happened is they are tired of people asking for handouts, so they say they have changed and start hating them (after they said no to a handout)...

The fact is, Squad hasn't changed... the love for the game and those that play it is still there, its the end user that has changed... they expect far too much from mere humans simply because if a game is at version 1.0.0 then it should be perfect, but it won't ever be, they only thing that has changed is the expectations from those that play the game. The Squad logo is perfect for this next comment... they are only mere imperfect humans... NOT monkey's.

Microsoft was, IMHO, much worse. I remember buy a new version of Windows, lets say, XP, getting home and installing it then having to download so many patches that it still haunts me to this day, a few hours to install it, then nearly eight hours on a super slow connection to get the patches... I ended up hating them for that, and I am justified in that hate. These days my connection is faster, but the hate remains and always will.

Squad does the best it can with what it has, they don't have the resources of Microsoft but even so, they are a damned sight faster with fixing the game and that is something everyone should appreciate... bugs are annoying yes, but to me, half the fun is working WITH the bug and finding a solution for the bug while still enjoying the game. Its a challenge.

Have people become so lazy that they want it easy right form the get go?

HOWEVER, having said that... in for a penny, in for a pound... I have a bigger problem with the moderators on this forum than I do with Squad. More than once I have had a thread closed because of some rule or other, only to see later on that others are allowed to get away with it... so, Love the game, Love Squad... but I am reluctant to post most times because of the way the posting rules are enforced or not... and its not just me, I see others being told off for this or that and later, I see others getting away with the exact same thing. Maybe you can get away with it if you suck up to the Moderators, but not me, I'm going to be 55 in a few weeks time and I don't suck up to anyone that (appears) to be younger than me... to me... the Forums are a bigger problem than the game.

For me, the game is, and always will be perfect. I'm happy with it, but the forums... maybe that is why the hate exists, not the game, but the forums.

However... I'll plod along... I'll take the good with the bad. Close my thread, no problem... I'll just wait for someone to post something similar and post there.

"nuff said"

i don't generally have a problem with most of the mods, but some of them can be pretty rabidly pro-squad

also, once i got a warning for calling a sweet video "sick! [10char]"

- - - Updated - - -

KSP is ever evolving; there will truly never be an official release. Think about that and try again.

EDIT: Just realized that your statement actually isn't a reply to the comment... so nevermind.

it actually was. so try again.