Suggestion to the Moderators

[micha]

Hi Mods,

First off, thank you guys and gals for keeping the forum a great place to participate in! Takes a lot of dedication and, I'm sure, a thick skin.

Just a quick comment/suggestion based on what I saw in a few threads recently. There sometimes seems to be confusion around when a moderator posts officially with his/her moderators' hat on, and when they do socially with just their own opinion to participate in the forum as any other user might.

Could I suggest that you adopt a convention to make it clear whether you are posting as a moderator, or as a user? That way people would be in no doubt whatsoever how to interpret your posts.

Many thanks, and keep up the great work,

- Micha.

[Red Iron Crown]

That's a topic that comes up from time to time among the moderators, and while it seems like a good idea on the surface there are some problems with it (as explained to me by a more experienced moderator when I suggested something similar):

- It further segregates the moderators from the regular users.

- Any font/color convention is easily duplicated by regular users, inviting rule 3.3 violations.

- Some users will always, always read a moderator's posts through the lens of "written by a moderator", even if clearly marked as personal opinion.

- If you need special fonts or colors to show when you are moderating then you are doing it wrong.

That said, sometimes we do it wrong, we're human and make mistakes sometimes.

[micha]

I can see the segregation being an issue; hadn't thought about that aspect of it.

As for your other points, instead of saying "This is a moderator response" (which can be duplicated/faked as you said), have a "This is my own opinion" disclaimer for social posts, and leave un-disclaimed posts as the moderator-hat ones.

Anyway, if it's been discussed before, then sorry for raising it again. It was purely based on the number of recent posts recently where people were confused following a moderator posting. Having many people here for whom english is not their first language (myself included) probably lowers the bar for confusion too.

Cheers,

- Micha.

[Supernovy]

As for your other points, instead of saying "This is a moderator response" (which can be duplicated/faked as you said), have a "This is my own opinion" disclaimer for social posts, and leave un-disclaimed posts as the moderator-hat ones.

This is what we already do, generally implicitly through our choice of language, but sometimes explicitly as I have done in the past.

But even the most explicitly stated disclaimer won't stop people from interpreting it as some sort of official communication. We try our best to be clear when we are and are not acting in a moderator capacity, but we also realise that on some level all of our posts will be read differently to a normal user's.

A lot of us recuse ourselves from posting our opinions altogether, as even the appearance of 'throwing around our weight' as moderators can be as bad as the real thing.

[Windspren]

That's a topic that comes up from time to time among the moderators, and while it seems like a good idea on the surface there are some problems with it (as explained to me by a more experienced moderator when I suggested something similar):

- It further segregates the moderators from the regular users.

- Any font/color convention is easily duplicated by regular users, inviting rule 3.3 violations.

- Some users will always, always read a moderator's posts through the lens of "written by a moderator", even if clearly marked as personal opinion.

- If you need special fonts or colors to show when you are moderating then you are doing it wrong.

That said, sometimes we do it wrong, we're human and make mistakes sometimes.

You should have secret identities!!!

Red Copper Crown

Red Iron Tiara

Blue Iron Crown

Green Iron Crown! Bring him back!!!

[micha]

A lot of us recuse ourselves from posting our opinions altogether, as even the appearance of 'throwing around our weight' as moderators can be as bad as the real thing.

That's rather sad You guys have a big enough passion for the game to moderate here and feel that you can't be part of the community.

Anyway, thanks again for a sterling job!

[Specialist290]

Eh, it's not entirely a bad thing. We do get the power and the tools to encourage an environment where everyone else can have reasonable, intelligent, and constructive discussions about the matters that are closest to their own hearts, which I personally consider to be worth the price

[RAINCRAFTER]

They do this with the PM's if you break a rule, but I guess it would look awkward elsewhere.

[Camacha]

With the opening post I can only agree. The current situation as it stands (as I have noted many years ago, this is not a recent issue) leads to issues and unnecessary infractions. Currently users are becoming the victim of bad policy and that is not very conducive to an open and pleasant forum for fear or infractions or even bans.

- It further segregates the moderators from the regular users.

It is the current situation that segregates moderators from the regular users, not making things clearer. Currently, vague situations regularly pop up, making people tread lightly round those statements that might very well be personal. If you are unmistakably clear, moderators can be one of the boys while discussing things, and a moderator when the need is there.

- Any font/color convention is easily duplicated by regular users, inviting rule 3.3 violations.

Not an issue or an argument. Anyone replicate police equipment too, but the occurrence of police impersonators is incredibly low. As long as the convention is clear, anyone copying that does so at his own (and very short lived) peril.

Oh, and in other forums them simply have colours and fonts not available to the rest. Just a thought

- Some users will always, always read a moderator's posts through the lens of "written by a moderator", even if clearly marked as personal opinion.

Separating out moderator posts from user posts more clearly might not solve this issue, but will most certainly mitigate this. Rather than guesstimating, it will simply be clear.

- If you need special fonts or colors to show when you are moderating then you are doing it wrong.

Things go awry on a regular basis and I feel this is not for lack of trying. Sometimes it is hard to image how someone else interprets a statement due to a number of reasons, it is better to be absolutely clear. There is a reason emergency services are clearly identifiable, as are most public servants. This has nothing to do with their skill set or qualities

It seems it is in the moderators best interest too to distinguish matters more clearly, as their concerns can be lessened with the same precautions that would solve the user issues. Win-win.

[Camacha]

I really hate to say it, but this is one of the problems here. Almost a week has passed without a response. This generally tends to be the case: many times, discussions have been started about damaging or broken policies. Without exception, the discussion is either ignored, or it just bleeds out. If you ask users to not discuss things in the forums themselves, but here, things also actually need to be discussed.

It is no wonder that people post their grievances in the threads themselves; there appears to be no other way to be heard.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Camacha

[Red Iron Crown]

What more is there to say? The moderation team feels that such a policy causes more problems than it fixes, so it's not becoming policy. If you are unclear whether a particular post is moderation or not, ask. Though to be honest, I find it hard to imagine there are many instances when it is not clear. When a moderator is moderating you'll see a post asking people to get back on topic, stop with personal attacks, or other similar guidance to stick to the rules. When a moderator is talking about things other than the rules then it is just a regular post.

[Camacha]

What more is there to say? The moderation team feels that such a policy causes more problems than it fixes, so it's not becoming policy.

I feel it has been well explained why it is both in the moderators and users best interest to more clearly indicate what are moderating statements and what are user posts. Any objections fielded have been countered. Since I sense there are opposing views remaining, I gather there are still a fair number of things to discuss.

It just saddens me to see things broken that I see working beautifully elsewhere in caring, pleasant communities that are much like our own. The proposals have already been tried and tested, yet resistance remains. If we can tinker with our craft and polish them and tweak them until they reach glorious perfection, why would we not give our forums the same treatment? If any forum deserves it, it is ours, so we best strap in and give it a go

[Red Iron Crown]

You're being overly dramatic. Things aren't "broken", for the most part moderation around here works very well (and I thought so before becoming a moderator, too). Your entire counterpoint is predicated on a premise with which I don't agree: "Currently, vague situations regularly pop up....Things go awry on a regular basis." I disagree with this perspective, though I have the advantage of seeing more of what goes on moderation-wise than a regular user. IME people complaining that a moderation post is too vague are almost always the ones looking to skirt the rules or outright break them.

[Camacha]

You're being overly dramatic. Things aren't "broken", for the most part moderation around here works very well (and I thought so before becoming a moderator, too). Your entire counterpoint is predicated on a premise with which I don't agree: "Currently, vague situations regularly pop up....Things go awry on a regular basis." I disagree with this perspective, though I have the advantage of seeing more of what goes on moderation-wise than a regular user.

Call it broken, call it things that could be better. The semantics really are not that relevant and change little about what is wrong. Whatever the case or what you want to call it, improvements could be made. Not only according to me, but also to various other people in this thread. This issue pops up from time to time from the user side (as this is certainly not the first time this has been discussed ) and, by your own admittance, on the moderating side of things too. Being a moderator might obscure the issue at hand a bit, since the experience is one-sided and a discussion feels rather different if you have no leverage at all. The long story short is that people regularly detect some bumps in the road, and those could be flattened in a simple and elegant way.

Besides, moderators have indicated in this thread they have some issues with being segregated, so if anything, that would be improved. Everybody wins, who can resist that?

IME people complaining that a moderation post is too vague are almost always the ones looking to skirt the rules or outright break them

Be careful you do not start blaming the victims here Being slapped with infractions that feels unwarranted is no fun for anyone.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Camacha

[Red Iron Crown]

I'm not saying there is no merit to the idea at all, just that the cons outweigh the pros. What happens when a moderator forgets to use the specified font (or whatever) to denote a moderation post? What about new users who aren't familiar with the convention, whatever it might be?

The segregation issue becomes worse with special fonts, not better. There's an attitude of "moderators think they're special with their fancy fonts/colors/what have you" that arises with such a policy. Better to rely on the reading comprehension of the users.

Be careful you do not start blaming the victims here Being slapped with infractions that feel unwarranted is no fun for anyone.

There are avenues to contest infractions if people feel they are unwarranted, they are mentioned in the warning/infraction message itself. There are not a lot of victims, if any, that I can tell. Standard reminder here that we don't discuss specific moderation actions publicly, if there is a specific instance you'd like to discuss take it to PM with me or another moderator.

I guess I just don't see much in the way of "vague" moderation posts. And I don't see it becoming suddenly better with a special font or whatever, people who willfully ignore or misinterpret moderation messages will likely do the same with the fonts as well.

[diomedea]

I am certainly not one who posts a lot, still reading one of my few posts may not be clear enough what I intended. Language still may be a barrier when the first language is not english, and not only for me while writing, but for others in the community.

That is why, since joining the moderation team, I adopted the rule (shown in my sig) to mark what I specifically made as a moderator. But, that is a rule for myself, not a general rule every and all of the moderators are bound to. And sometimes I even forget to apply it. In my view however it helps make clear what needed to be moderated (and generally I show why).

No rule exists nor is in general considered necessary about marking moderator actions in any special way. Most of the time those actions are so clear by themselves to not require further explanation. But in case, each one of us is free to choose the way he sees best. While I'm convinced of my system as fitting, others do not, and remain free to do as they like: going on with requesting them to change is not much different than from me to require any member to be posting as I'd like, instead as they would. Oh, perhaps that could require me to take action (eh, not to show other moderators what I do as an example, already did).