Done with the tech tree... Dang.

[FlowerChild]

Sadly, a full blown story mode is far harder for mods to implement (going merely by the fact that many desire it yet it does not exist) than something that multiplies everything by 10.

Personally, I couldn't care less about story. I just appreciate much more meaningful and prolonged progression than what's currently in stock, and I get an ample supply of that through my own mod.

To me, sandbox is essentially what happens when the game is over, at which point I lose interest.

[X-SR71]

For me the tech tree isn't the objective of the career mode. The World First contracts are. The tech tree is your limiting factor for completing those.

[Nich]

I have always felt the should have taken the best challenges from the forums and added them as contracts to the end game after you have finished the tech tree.

[TheSoundOfTrees]

I am just a new player, and play Science. My personal goal is to explore, i.e gain every science point I can find in the Kerbol system - or do things I think are "interesting" even if they give me nothing. So I create missions either with these direct goals, or for testing how to reach them - with an occasional engineering challenge. All this with the soft limitation that I always try to reach my goals without buying new tech, only spending my science points when I can't find a way to do it with what I have or become bored with trying. In other words, the tech tree is not a goal for me, but a tool.

And I plan to add a whole bunch of new science or engineering mods to my game to give me more things to try to accomplish. "Try" because I fail a lot.

I am currently thinking about building a research base on Kerbin's poles : totally useless. But trying to build a cargo plane will keep me occupied for some times

[Guest]

Sadly, a full blown story mode is far harder for mods to implement (going merely by the fact that many desire it yet it does not exist) than something that multiplies everything by 10.

Probably not as hard as you think, Unity is quite flexible. I'd say it has more to do with the people who want story mode than anything else. Witness the people who wanted more realism; realizing that Squad wasn't going to deliver it they got off their butts and made it happen. Considering how easy it is to mod KSP I'm actually very surprised we haven't seen a story-mode mod yet.

Also, take a look at the older RSS code, or the newer Kopernicus code. It's much more involved than "multiply everything by 10" (which is kind of a slap in the face of the effort they took or the customization they offer).

Edited July 20, 2015 by regex

[Hazelnut]

I'm the same, I find the science progression and working towards new toys to play with is the most fun for giving me objectives. When I finished the stock tree I had only visited Kerbin & Duna + moons so I could have proceeded to visit other planets but it's much nicer to have a reason to go. I decided to install CTT + NFT + KSPI mods. Lots of new toys, although with KSPI I had to spend a long time figuring out what a lot of the stuff does. Been a lot of fun though. Unfortunately visiting Jool + moons has nearly maxed the CTT additions now, so may be back to square 1 soon.

[Superfluous J]

Probably not as hard as you think, Unity is quite flexible. I'd say it has more to do with the people who want story mode than anything else. Witness the people who wanted more realism; realizing that Squad wasn't going to deliver it they got off their butts and made it happen. Considering how easy it is to mod KSP I'm actually very surprised we haven't seen a story-mode mod yet.

Also, take a look at the older RSS code, or the newer Kopernicus code. It's much more involved than "multiply everything by 10" (which is kind of a slap in the face of effort they took or the customization they offer).

I was being flippant, I'll admit. I meant no disrespect, but still believe that the skill requirements for implementing a full-on story mode are more rare than those for implementing realism. Not *harder* per-se. Just more rare. I chose my word poorly when I used "hard" to describe it. That was sloppy.

The big problem with coding in a story mode though is that you need the framework AND the story. The two skills don't always go well together. For the realism crowd, you need coders who are science nuts and like ksp. For the story, you need coders who are good video game story authors and like KSP.

We have that a bit in Contract Configurator and a few of the contract packs. It's a great substitute and is about all that's keeping me interested in this game right now, but I still want more.

And no, I do not have the skill set either

[Guest]

The big problem with coding in a story mode though is that you need the framework AND the story. The two skills don't always go well together.

As I said, it has more to do with the people who want story mode than the difficulty of doing it. One could easily leverage the contract system and the excellent mods provided for it to make a progression story, maybe add in some code from KCT to handle launching only at approved times, and all sorts of things like that. The community has already written 90% of the code, it's just that someone doesn't want it bad enough.

[haltux]

As I said, it has more to do with the people who want story mode than the difficulty of doing it. One could easily leverage the contract system and the excellent mods provided for it to make a progression story, maybe add in some code from KCT to handle launching only at approved times, and all sorts of things like that. The community has already written 90% of the code, it's just that someone doesn't want it bad enough.

I think the problem is that writing a story is the job of the game designer, not the job of a modder. A mod is something you do (I guess) to make the game better so that you can enjoy it better, to fill what you consider as a hole in the game. By definition when you write a story you write it for others, you will not have the same pleasure to play it because you already know it entirely.

For the same reason when you look at open-source games you find none, or almost none, that have an actual story or even simply any kind of content that has to be discovered by the player.

[Guest]

I think the problem is that writing a story is the job of the game designer, not the job of a modder.

I know someone who would take issue with your definition there, and I do as well. For instance, part creators have to keep an eye towards balance with the stock parts if they want their mods to fit into the game. That takes a measure of game design knowledge, knowing when you've made something OP. There are other, far more pronounced instances in other games (for instance, Frostfall for Skyrim, which pretty much changes how the game is played) than KSP, which benefits far more from automation and information mods, things that make the game play better rather than change it.

A mod is something you do (I guess) to make the game better so that you can enjoy it better, to fill what you consider as a hole in the game. By definition when you write a story you write it for others, you will not have the same pleasure to play it because you already know it entirely.

Your definitions of individual motivation suffer from extreme pigeon-holing.

For the same reason when you look at open-source games you find none, or almost none, that have an actual story or even simply any kind of content that has to be discovered by the player.

I can't speak to open-source games specifically, but free games, or games from small-entities (which I assume you are implying from the "open source" qualifier?) can, and do, have just as much content as AAA titles.

[FlowerChild]

I'm having a very hard time even understanding what you guys mean by "story" in the context of KSP. Are we talking about the slow reveal of the developing romance between Jeb and Val or something or are we actually talking about progression here where the player say is first tasked with landing on the Mun and then moving out into the solar system.

If the former, I think that's an exceedingly poor fit for KSP. If the latter, then that's largely what I aspire towards providing with Better Than Starting Manned, which is more along the lines of the total conversion mods that regex is describing above in other games, that revolve around changing a game rather than adding to it.

One thing to keep in mind about doing that though: once you start changing the game like that, which I consider pretty much a necessity for creating strong progression, then compatibility with other mods largely gets chucked out the window, which comes along with its own set of problems. I think that may be one of the main reasons that many stay away from that style of mod development as well: it's a mammoth amount of work to go it alone like that, and it also tends to create a lot of bad blood with other modders.

Edited July 20, 2015 by FlowerChild

[TMS]

"Story" doesn't mean cut scenes and scripted events.

"Story" means tying stuff together and having one event impact or create dependencies on another.

[FlowerChild]

"Story" doesn't mean cut scenes and scripted events.

"Story" means tying stuff together and having one event impact or create dependencies on another.

I'd personally call that progression, but tomato, tomato, I guess

I tend to reserve the word "story" for narrative elements that have little or no impact on actual gameplay. If you're talking about gated gameplay dependencies where accomplishing one thing unlocks progress towards another (like where performing a manned Mun landing unlocks the ability to begin exploring the rest of the solar system), then yeah, that's what I attempt to provide with BTSM, and if it's what you're looking for I'd recommend giving it a try.

Edited July 20, 2015 by FlowerChild

[Targa]

TLDR;

Finishing the tech tree quickly was my forst real gripe with this game. Since then I've learned that to make it more interesting (for myself, and people like me), you need to set the difficulty to hard (it's OK to turn back on reverting ships if you want, etc), and on the sliders, set science to 10% or 20%. Otherwise, as you mentioned, visiting the outer planets is pointless. Also, use mods like SETI's Tech Tree mod, which makes the tech tree twice as big. Add in Remote Tech, and you won't be able to launch probes/satellites without them having a connection to KSC. Mods make the game more interesting and give it longevity. I'm hoping someone will make a mod that integrates with Remote Tech and makes it impossible to use maneuver nodes for manned flight unless you have an antenna connection to KSC.

[nightingale]

About 6 months ago I set out to make a story/progression based mod, mainly because I was fed up with the contracts at the time (these were the days of "test launch clamps on the Mun" contracts). There wasn't really a mod that fit what I was looking for (I incorrectly though of BTSM as a balance mod, when it really is more accurate to call it a progression mod - if I realized at the time I may have just played that instead of getting into modding).

So I started digging through the files looking for the .cfg files where the contracts were... and was a bit surprised when I found nothing (this was before Arsonide was with Squad, so there wasn't even the Contracts.cfg that there is today). So I decided to write the contract system that I wanted, and use that to create my progression mod.

I still haven't created that progression mod.

We have that a bit in Contract Configurator and a few of the contract packs. It's a great substitute and is about all that's keeping me interested in this game right now, but I still want more.

There's been a few people that have shown some level of interest in using Contract Configurator for something more story-based (the most recent one here, but doesn't appear to be going anywhere). If there was someone who showed real interest in doing it I'd be happy to add features to Contract Configurator to make it possible. As it stands, I tend to only do features that I know will get used.

[Ten Key]

I think the tech tree benefits game play mainly by creating opportunity costs at each point on the tree. When properly balanced, each node becomes a strategic decision-- what do I need, and most importantly, what can I live without? And you feel those decisions in the VAB, and that in turn creates a bit of a "look ahead" mentality that can help spur you forward to the next project, the next mission. Finish the tech tree, and suddenly that impetus is gone, and I think that leaves a hole in the gameplay that some people feel more than others. Being able to completely fill in the tech tree without ever leaving Kerbin's SOI seems like a wasted opportunity to me.

A mod is something you do (I guess) to make the game better so that you can enjoy it better, to fill what you consider as a hole in the game. By definition when you write a story you write it for others, you will not have the same pleasure to play it because you already know it entirely.

This hasn't really been my experience. I typically write for my own benefit, and very rarely do I know how things are going to turn out once the story is all said and done.

But "story" is one of those words that can mean very different things to different people. I think one of KSP's selling points as a backdrop is that the "story", if you will, is almost completely absent. The game is a blank canvas (or sandbox ) that you can fill in however you want. I don't think adding a "story mode" would help on that front.

[keeper]

When i started this career I aimed to have all the science of mun and minmus in 2 - 4 missions, and have tech tree finished. (and i give myself science boost at the start ) Thats not my end game. Must be 10th launch now, just about done most science and on tech tree just Xenon and small parts missing.

No time wasting now, in past versions I've mined Minmus, now I want to mine Duna before doing asteroid collections.

I must build a new base worthy of Duna, and that is my brick wall atm, last night i spent about 4 hours messing around in VAB/SPH thinking how to make another new base but no bright ideas came, and certainly no launches

All the crap I built in the past has some wierd non working vital part or mod or is buggy in some way so all vehicles are freshly built for purpose, I am missing some of my old tugs and cranes so much. I am thinking about a lorry now to tow the landed station parts. Re-entry on kerbin is not 100% for me lol so need to think about that