Discussion thread - BD Armory AI tournaments

[colmo]

Well the AMRAAMs are bulkier in close range but also do more damage than sidewinders. I can't say which is better. More maneuverable sidewinder or the more damaging AMRAAM?

We should decide on how many 'points' we get before we move ahead of our selves.

From memory, if a missile hits it's goodnight Vienna, regardless. Iirc, the AMRAAMs get fired first, followed by the Sidewinders, and often its hard to tell which made the kill.

Points - let's say 10:

Both AtA missiles cost a point, as does the cannon and ammo box each, and each countermeasures pod.

You could have long distance loadout:

1 cannon

1 ammo

4 AMRAAM

2 Sidewinder

2 countermeasures

Or short range:

2 cannon

3 ammo

2 Sidewinder

3 Countermeasures

And I'm sure there are other viable loadouts too. Might need a rule that cannon ammo must be visible - don't want cheaty clipped boxes hidden from sight for auditing!

No idea about other weapons - they really belong in an anything goes class than pure fighters.

Edited July 20, 2015 by colmo

[Lofar968]

I think the ammo box and the countermeasure pods should be 2 points each. (To make it a bit harder, if it would...)

[Noname117]

And missiles should be more than that, like 6 or 7 or something. Setting the max limit higher allows for better balancing, as you can better tweak the amount of points each weapon has rather than just giving each one point. Anyways, goodnight

[colmo]

Sure, some balancing of the point cost of missiles (and countermeasures) v guns might be required, but remember this may also bias the kind of planes favoured - missiles favour fast long-range fighters (BVR), guns favour agile dogfighters (WVR).*

Some may want to repeat the mistake of the Americans in Vietnam, and build planes with no cannon. Who knows, it might work in KSP? Very risky if all the missiles miss, then it's a matter of outlasting the opposition team while not getting shot down!

BVR = Beyond visual range - e.g. F22 Raptor

WVR = Within Visual Range - e.g. Eurofighter Typhoon

Edited July 20, 2015 by colmo

[Darren9]

I though it might be possible to use TimeControl and pause the game to set the four aircraft and then resume but it seems BD wont have it. I got a totally sync'd launch with SmartParts though, just need one radio on each craft (same size/weight as a weapon controller), three set to receive, and with an action group set to activate the auto pilot the controlled craft can activate all four at the same time. I seem to get a reasonable framerate recording at 720p with what I think was around 25 - 30 missiles in range (each plane had 8). I think it'll be a race to get up to engagement altitude and turn and fight first, if you set it too low though the AI can fly into the ground

[colmo]

Nice video - I'll see what kind of quality I can manage in capture. I didn't think anyone would use that huge GAU gun, it certainly seems to hamper manoeuvring (those planes turn slowly) but it's a monster in damage.

Yes, I just started tampering with default altitude - it made a huge difference to the normal kind of engagement. Definitely one for the designers to decide - lots of thrust and big wings to get altitude advantage, or manoeuvrable and do the limbo flying dangerously low around the KSC? Setting a really low minimum altitude gives first strike advantage, but crash probability goes up. Just the sort of risk/reward scenario you want in a contest of design skill.

It also produced a dogfight were one jet shot down his own wingman and both opposing jets in a single strafe!

Edited July 20, 2015 by colmo

[PixelStory]

I would like to help with this. What do you guys need?

Btw, I just joined the forums and I am actually an experienced player.

[colmo]

I would like to help with this. What do you guys need?

Btw, I just joined the forums and I am actually an experienced player.

I'd say the breakdown is:

Rules of engagement

Craft requirements and restrictions

Minutiae of craft submission

Reproduction of start settings

Recording the contests

[Derpotron]

Oh my god this is a great idea just let me go and make a fighter for this!

[PixelStory]

I would be able to make The requirements, and the page to put all the entries. Would I still be able to enter a craft?

10th Post. Yay.

[Noname117]

I'd say the breakdown is:

Rules of engagement

Craft requirements and restrictions

Minutiae of craft submission

Reproduction of start settings

Recording the contests

I feel like the first one should be that aircraft are hyper-edited to positions nearby the runway, with the aircraft of the opposing teams facing in opposite directions. The diagram for that would look like either: ^VX^V or ^^XVV, with ^ being one team's aircraft (and the direction they are facing), V being the other team's aircraft, and X being a low-part count building to use as a center point for the battle. One aircraft would be switched to team B, then while everything is taking off the other aircraft from that team would be as well. Whichever team has the last aircraft remaining wins that round. Whoever wins the most rounds out of either 5 or 7 (I feel like 5 would be easier, but 7 is closer to playoff hockey, which is one of the only sports I enjoy watching) gets to move on, whilst the losing team is eliminated. Aircraft which exceed a set physics distance from X are eliminated, and the AI of aircraft cannot have its max altitude set higher than a certain number (I'm thinking maybe 2000 to 3000m). This probably explained more than just that point.

For craft requirements and restrictions, I think we should prohibit the use of all engines except for the basic jets, turbojets, and RAPIERs set on air-breathing mode. I think a jet should not be able to exceed 100 parts with a full weapons loadout. All missile based weapons should be mounted on pylons (Certain parts being used to perform the same function as the BD pylons are allowed in this situation). A pylon can mount multiple missiles on it, but the missiles must not be overly clipped. There will be a set weapon point limit, and each allowed weapon, ammo box, and flare pod will be worth a set number of points.The Abrams turret, the Millennium turret, the 105mm howitzer and the Goalkeeper will be banned, along with all unguided bombs. Several ground attack or ground-based weapons may be banned if it is shown they cannot be air launched at another aircraft by the AI. Aircraft should be required to carry a minimum fuel load; this could either be done by requiring a certain amount of fuel per engine or setting a minimum delta-V. Craft cannot exceed a certain specified weight. Clipping is allowed except for fuel tanks, which cannot be massively clipped (I feel like minor clipping for looks should be allowed) unless one is drained or partially drained, depending on how much they are clipped.

Crafts should be submitted on a page set up specifically for the contest to be judged by either 3 or 4 judges: Colmo, whoever is twitch streaming or recording (I am volunteering for part of this), and possibly someone else. Judges can participate in the competition, but their aircraft have to be approved by other judges. I think each team should get 4 aircraft and pick 2 to use for each series. These 4 aircraft could all be the same aircraft, could all be different aircraft, could all have the same weapon loadout or could have varying weapon loadouts. This allows the teams a player uses to vary a bit more, and possibly makes the game a bit more strategical as you have to figure out and pick which aircraft will most likely best your opponent's aircraft.

Start settings would be easy to reproduce in my case. As I said before, the starting coordinates and starting directions of each aircraft would be pre-set, and they would be the same across all of the games. Whichever team gets flipped over to the B team first will be at first decided by a coin flip for the first series, and for later series it will be decided by which team had done better in the past series. Each consecutive round whoever is made the B-team will switch.

I feel like the recording of the contests should be done by 2 twitch streamers, and be a multiple day event. If we do a 32-team event, then we do 4 days. If we do a 16 team event, we do 2 days. (We could possibly have a forum league and a reddit league of 16 teams each to get 32 total). On the first day, the two streamers would show four of the initial series games each. The second day, another 4 would be shown. The third day (Or first if we only get 16 people in total), the streamers would showcase the second set of series. On the fourth day, the third series set and finals would be shown.

This is just my 2 cents, I still need another twitch streamer to make this happen, but I feel like I have a really solid rule set here.

[PixelStory]

Can I still host the page for The entries?

[Noname117]

This is mostly colmo's contest, so overall it would be his decision (I may be trying to hijack it a bit), but it would be fine with me if you do a good job (You're quite new to the forums, and thus lack a reputation, so I'm mostly posting this to make sure you are up for the job). Collecting the entries would require keeping constantly up to date with the page, and probably moderating a fair deal of the entries yourself (So a good understanding of the rules is probably needed). It would also require making the page both pretty and organized, and you would likely need to be very committed to the challenge. If you can do all of that, I have no problems with letting you host the entries page (But let us at least set up the rules first. I'm also thinking about having another entry page on reddit and possibly steam).

[PixelStory]

I am up for the job! I hope to see the rules soon!

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

I'm working on a fighter for this thing.

[colmo]

Fantastic summary, noname. I posted before but it appears was eaten by the Internet.

I'm for setting a generous default altitude, up to 5 km - just enough to remain in guard range. Low altitude is up to builders, depends how risky they are willing to be.

I'd only omit stray planes if they permanently lose contact with the enemy. Which planes are deemed the lost ones might need a human decision at the end of any engagement.

I don't mind others running with this idea, I like winding things up and letting them go.

Edited July 20, 2015 by colmo

[Evanitis]

Wut? BD can do -that- these days? I always passed the thread when I saw it's about guns and rockets (well, unmanned destructive rockets). It took a while until I actually thought about what AI + dogfighting + tournament means. That's awesome! Glad I clicked here in time. I'll totally participate once the rules are finalized.

Think I could also make some shiney sig-badges for the contest. People seem to like them badges. Well, at least I do. And extra publicity could wind up more contenders. I bet there are more out there who'd be interested if they knew BD Armory got such a feature.

[colmo]

Wut? BD can do -that- these days? I always passed the thread when I saw it's about guns and rockets (well, unmanned destructive rockets). It took a while until I actually thought about what AI + dogfighting + tournament means. That's awesome! Glad I clicked here in time. I'll totally participate once the rules are finalized.

Think I could also make some shiney sig-badges for the contest. People seem to like them badges. Well, at least I do. And extra publicity could wind up more contenders. I bet there are more out there who'd be interested if they knew BD Armory got such a feature.

Love the badges - I'm thinking this should be called Top Gun AI or AI Top Gun. Think kerbalised Maverick and Goose

I was the same, we've had weapon mods for years, but AI was the clincher for me. It can launch, circle, engage enemies and evade missiles.

Things it can't do is:

Route planning (BD is working on GPS type tools, though...),

Landing, planes with no power (shot off engines, intakes or out of fuel) still deploy gear approaching 0m altitude and often land safely or ditch in the sea nonfatally, and,

Formation flying (though see BurnTogether mod) and proximity alerts; they act independently and don't help wingmen unless by chance, which would be hugely more difficult to do,

Stop shooting at disabled planes which still have weapon managers but are obviously out of the fight and about to crash. Again, difficult to code as the AI pilots heavily damaged planes amazingly well.

Edited July 20, 2015 by colmo

[Evanitis]

Can't care much about the present limitations, it's already amazing. Planes finally have a -purpose- in KSP besides SSTOs and flying above a dull terrain.

(already DL-ed and having my share of fun with BD)

[Noname117]

With the amount of replies and survey answers you are getting, doing a full-on 32-player tournament is looking very possible. We just need another livestreamer and I think we can finalize the rules! Really looking forward to however this pans out.

[Lofar968]

With the amount of replies and survey answers you are getting, doing a full-on 32-player tournament is looking very possible. We just need another livestreamer and I think we can finalize the rules! Really looking forward to however this pans out.

32 planes? Wouldn't that lag a bit much? Seems like a lot to me.

[Noname117]

Tournament style. Each player gets 2 planes and those 2 planes fight off against another players 2 planes. Only 4 planes are ever spawned at once. Losers are eliminated and winners fight other winners until only 1 person is left

Of course, this is heavily generalized. Each "series" of games would be 5 or 7 rounds (depending on what is decided upon), and each round would be a single face-off. It is kind of like how Stanley Cup playoff hockey works.

So no, there would only ever be 4 planes spawned at once. There would just be a lot of fights which would have to get done, rather than 1 big one.

[Hodo]

Only downside to this is, if there is a stock only with BD no FAR then it will cut out a group. But if you have FAR only no stock atmo then you have the same problem. I say have two competitions one for souposphere and one for FAR.

[Azimech]

This was a proposal of mine back in 0.90. I had the expectation there would be an increase in performance (the opposite became true), aero wouldn't change so much, and the jet engines wouldn't get nerfed. The planes are useless now since 1.0.x killed the stock turboshaft engine. They could be adapted for use with a normal jet engine (but that's boring). Still, the idea of a complex airframe that can survive large amounts of battle damage, is appealing.

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Obviously, probe core is pilot head. Kill that and it's game over.

[Evanitis]

Love the badges - I'm thinking this should be called Top Gun AI or AI Top Gun.

Made a badge - it currently links this thread until the actual challenge is up. Wish I could figure out how to show the plain code so one could just paste it anywhere, but the forum just turns it into the actual image. So it should be set manually. It's 107 px high - same as the common K-Prize one, and just a tiny bit taller than the Jool-5 badge. Link for the image:

http://i.imgur.com/o37n8ol.png