Discussion thread - BD Armory AI tournaments

[colmo]

Interesting, having "armour" in this format. It really should be weight as the penalty, but sacrificing weapons for protection seems interesting from a design compromise perspective. Consider them the counter to guns in the same way countermeasures are to missiles.

I'm reconsidering turrets, costed as a percentage of the base point cost depending on degrees of movement. They should be expensive!

[Alphasus]

at full movement, they should be 56 points.

[colmo]

Oer, that's torn it!

Missiles entirely revamped in regards air-to-air guidance, love parts tabs, jettison I think means weapons bays, but only for bombs I presume, GPS makes my Interceptor challenge easier to do (no targets required on the bombers, just GPS coordinates), and some AI buffs.

Update v0.9.0

= New =

• Custom BDArmory parts tab in editor
  
• BDArmory-specific volume sliders in options menu
  
• Take-off speed variable added to AI Pilot
  
• ModuleWeapon (replaced gun/cannon/laser functions from BahaTurret)
  - Can be used without turret to simplify unity setup/part config of fixed guns
  - Uses pooled bullets and ejected shells
  - Improved muzzle flashes
  - Center-weighted bullet spread, specified by max angle in degrees (instead of previous 'accuracy' number)
  
• ModuleTurret (generic turret that can be used in conjunction with other modules in the future)
  - Simplified intuitive unity setup
  - Independent yaw and pitch rotation speeds in degrees per second (instead of previous, inconsistent 'degrees per frame')
  - Precise, instantaneous aiming, or smooth aiming, or anything in between
  
• New tracer texture
  
• Optional "shortName" for weapons - display a short name in the weapon manager instead of the full part title
  
• Jettison function button for missiles/bombs/rockets
  
• Jettison function for WeaponManager - will jettison all selected weapon
  
• New Guidance mode (AGMBallistic) for more efficient air-to-surface and surface-to-surface trajectories
  
• Mk.83 JDAM 1000lb GPS guided bomb
  
• AGM-88 HARM Anti-radiation missile
  
• MissileLauncher module supports decoupling boosters (now used in RBS-15 boosters)
  
• Simulated systems
  
  • Heat seeking
    - based on temperature and heat generation
    - engine occlusion can affect non-all-aspect seekers
    - can lock on flares (intentionally or not)
    - boresight target locking
    - can be slaved to radar target for off-boresight launch
    
  • Radar
    - scan sweeps give momentary position
    - some radars also show contact's velocity vector
    - locking shows rapidly updating position and directional
    - sends locked target info to fired missile until missile's radar goes active
    - 360 degree detection radars (ground based or AWACs) and limited FoV forward facing radars (air to air targeting)
    - boresight scanning for quick close-range locks in air-air combat
    - data sharing
    - radar cross section depends on vessel's size, shape, and rotation
    - turret slaving
    - scanned target info will be sent to AI's target database
    - Radar Warning Receiver detecting radar sources (currently built-in with Weapon Manager)
    
  • Anti-radiation
    - When used with RWR, will show icons on detected radar sources
    - Will lock on radar sources within field of view
    
  • Targeting Pod (Camera + laser + gps)
    - Laser guidance for missiles
    - Turret slaving
    - Lased targets can be locked by any vessel with laser guided missile
    - Target GPS coordinates can be broadcast to team
    
  • GPS
    - Marked GPS coordintes are listed and shown in the HUD
    - Selecting a GPS coordinate will designate it as the target and that info will be sent to GPS guided weapons on release
    
  • Smoke countermeasures (against laser-guidance)
    

= Changes =

- Settings menu is now accessible in all scenes

- Updated turrets/guns to use new modules

- Adjusted guard's priority of missiles

- Adjusted AI Pilot's missile off-boresight launch authorization angle

- Increased flare ejection speed

- Increased flare lifespan

- Upgraded flares to new heat system

- Adjusted missile aerodynamics

- Changed missile guidance behavior to drag velocity vector over target instead of pointing nose at it (modders may need to adjust steering values on custom missiles)

- Reduced texture sizes to 512x512 max

= Fixes =

- Fixed bomb calculated impact point inaccuracy caused by stock body-lift (removed stock body lift from all missiles)

- Fixed missiles sometimes exploding instantly on attempting to fire

- Fixed issue causing cruise missiles to climb forever

- Fixed M1 Abrams' symmetry (may need to reattach on existing crafts)

- AI Pilot will no longer attempt to fire missiles when landed

- Guards will no longer detect and report hostiles that are occluded by terrain/scenery

- Fixed sight raycast test going through terrain if near it

- Settings will be saved if using Alt-B to close settings window (don't need to click save)

- Fixed looped gun audio not resetting to start position next time it's fired if had looped before

- Corrected AGM-86 name to C instead of B (B is nuclear)

---

Important notes:

- As an initial release of many new features, please be patient and report issues as you find them.

- To re-enable vessel targeting, open the settings (Alt- and enable Legacy Targeting

- Currently, guard/AI can only use radar and heat seeking systems.

- Some features are place-holder, such as chaff and jamming. They do function, but the functionality should be improved later.

- Currently radars and other modules do not consume electricity. The only new module that uses electricity is the jammer.

Important notes for modders:

- You will need to re-do your unity setup and config file for turrets and guns.

- To prevent confusion, I will remove all links to third party parts until you tell me that you've updated your parts.

- I will be making a new example unity package and tutorial video shortly

- You may need to adjust missile steering and aerodynamics config

- - - Updated - - -

Jettison specifically states missiles too!

[Alphasus]

Also, please don't distribute the XFA-27 at all if you have a download of it!I will find you.

[colmo]

I misunderstood jettison and the AI can't cope with missiles ATM. That is a bit of a damper for our purposes, though we can go back to old method.

The AI isn't really updated to the new systems at all in terms of defending itself. It can lock and fire at you, but it doesn't know what an RWR is, and heat missiles no longer give it any warning that it's incoming.

This is all planned for the AI update.

[RocketTurtle]

I misunderstood jettison and the AI can't cope with missiles ATM. That is a bit of a damper for our purposes, though we can go back to old method.

Ah damn.

We might have to stick with the old version

[colmo]

We can use the new version, we just have to turn on the legacy targeting mode.

[Alphasus]

for some reason, the ai is dumb in regards to missiles. But, the thing is, for heat seekers to work, you need to stay on target.

[dangerouspeople1]

I downloaded a few of other's design to test my plane and found out that they are more maneuverable then me. I studied a lot to try to improve my design and even tried to recreate some of them but I still can't be as maneuverable as them. How can I make my plane more maneuverable?

[Alphasus]

Trade secret my friend, we don't say. All I will say is collar wings, which I define in a possible ruleset.

[colmo]

I downloaded a few of other's design to test my plane and found out that they are more maneuverable then me. I studied a lot to try to improve my design and even tried to recreate some of them but I still can't be as maneuverable as them. How can I make my plane more maneuverable?

To start your search, look up 'relaxed stability'. Then start fiddling with the AI controls until your plane almost, but not quite, falls out of the sky.

[Alphasus]

Mm, colmo. My planes are stable and maneuverable, and fast, just short range. How does that work?

[Zixor]

To start your search, look up 'relaxed stability'. Then start fiddling with the AI controls until your plane almost, but not quite, falls out of the sky.

This is good advise. Because this is a fighter jet, you also have to be conscious of how well you can keep a bead on the enemy with machinegun fire. I've noticed that the AI aims best when you meet three conditions:

1. Isolate your control axis. Make sure that a roll input does not induce yawing or pitching.
   
2. Don't put the center of drag too far forward of the center of mass. This will leave your AI unable to make fine adjustments when aiming.
   
3. Reduce the craft's moment of inertia by keeping the fuel and engines close to center-of-mass. If you are building a twin-jet craft, push those engines in real close together.
   

[colmo]

Mm, colmo. My planes are stable and maneuverable, and fast, just short range. How does that work?

From my limited knowledge of military aviation, this is a debate in real life too. I suspect danderouspeople1's planes were far too stable (lawn darts), my current generation of fighters are just about stable, and the next ones I do I'll be going for fully unstable designs. I want to take out that Double Down with something that looks like a plane!

This is good advise. Because this is a fighter jet, you also have to be conscious of how well you can keep a bead on the enemy with machinegun fire. I've noticed that the AI aims best when you meet three conditions:

1. Isolate your control axis. Make sure that a roll input does not induce yawing or pitching.
   
2. Don't put the center of drag too far forward of the center of mass. This will leave your AI unable to make fine adjustments when aiming.
   
3. Reduce the craft's moment of inertia by keeping the fuel and engines close to center-of-mass. If you are building a twin-jet craft, push those engines in real close together.
   

All good advice. I've been using V-tails but have noticed accuracy isn't brilliant, which supports point #1.

[colmo]

I've been trying out the latest version of BD Armory (0.9.2 with legacy targeting) and things have changed. Guns appear less effective, heatseekers more so (I don't believe AI knows how to use radar guided missiles yet). It needs more testing to figure out all the changes that impact us.

E.g. When setting off a contest by switching one plane to Team B, it's best to wait until the wingman is in the air before switching them to Team B too. Otherwise, s/he stops for a moment.

I was testing against the Double Down gunboat, and it appeared to have lost efficacy with it's GAU gun, and become easier to hit with missiles. My very fast single-engine jet was romping home, apart from the times it played chicken and drew the tie with a mutual wipeout in a head-on crash!

The AI has one new setting - take-off speed. Default is 70 but some planes might manage better with less. It seems to determined when the plane starts to pull up after take-off.

[colmo]

And another update!

Update v0.9.3

This is another round of new features that are still in their infancy - this is the beginning of guards/AI using the new systems. Please be patient and help out by reporting issues as you find them in a concise and thorough manner. Thanks!

= New =

- With new targeting, guard range is instead visual range (acquire targets without sensors), limited to 3.5km

- Guard's visual scanning is a separate subroutine than the scan intervals defined by the slider (which is now just firing intervals)

- Guards can still discover and acquire targets beyond that distance by using radar or other sensors

- Guards can use Radar and TGP for turrets

- Guard's can use GPS, Laser, and Anti-radiation missiles

- Guards/AI now fire appropriate countermeasures and evade radar (via RWR) and heatseeking missiles (via visual detection)

- Guards fire both chaff and flare when a missile launch of unknown type is detected

- Guards will automatically enable radar or TGP if necessary

= Changes =

- Changed explosion damage to a new system of firing many rays in random directions using heat damage - more consistent on high-velocity impacts (may need balance tweaks)

- Anti-radiation missiles now only lock onto SAM or Detection type radars

- Bombs with any type of guidance now have the larger reticle (not just GPS)

- Improved JDAM steering

- Changed size of jammed radar ping

- Slightly increased TWR Radar scan sensitivity

- Increased missile detection for radars

- Tweaks to certain missiles' steering and aero (tweaks will continue in the future)

- Tweaked chaff effectiveness

= Fixes =

- Radar scan threshold now uses the proper configured value

- Radar-detected vessels are no longer reported to both team's target database

- Fixed debris showing up as enemy targets on radar

- Fixed some inconsistent use of TargetInfo

- Fixed rockets spawning in front of rocket pod instead of inside it

Edit:

Here's a GFY of an AI plane effectively defeating a heat-seeking missile

[Alphasus]

This one might work, I am testing it now!

[colmo]

Bahamuto D posted about an issue with turret accuracy, which might explain why the guns have become so ineffective.

Heatseekers are much more compelling now, seem less likely to be wasted shooting at planes approaching the merge fast.

I haven't begun to play with radar, but that's a whole rock-paper-scissors game all by itself.

[Alphasus]

heatseekers are OP atm. Flares don't stop them at all. Doesn't matter if you have 2 flares or 5, it won't matter.

[colmo]

They only work in non-legacy mode, then the guns don't work. As it is, we can't use this version, but I expect the next few will sort it. Guard reaction to team switching is a pain, you have to wait for both to be airborne before switching the second one.

Meanwhile, I sorted an arena

Setup Air Race, and add the following Instances to the ksairracelaunch1.cfg:

Ideally I should set it up where there are no other Kerbinside objects, or remove them, but that's awkward to do.

Instances
	{
		CelestialBody = Kerbin
		RadialPosition = 157203.5,-1374.481,-574662.1
		Orientation = 0,1,0
		RadiusOffset = 64.78484
		RotationAngle = 180.8
		RefLatitude = -0.132183576370081
		RefLongitude = 285.299418536003
		VisibilityRange = 25000
		Group = Ungrouped
		LaunchSiteName = Team 1 Wingman
		LaunchSiteDescription = No description available.
		LaunchSiteType = ANY
		Category = Other
		OpenCost = 0
		CloseValue = 0
		OpenCloseState = Open
		FacilityType = None
		CustomInstance = True
		LaunchRefund = 0
		RecoveryFactor = 50
		RecoveryRange = 100000
		LaunchPadTransform = ksairracelaunch1_spawn
	}
	Instances
	{
		CelestialBody = Kerbin
		RadialPosition = 157215.5,-1188.481,-574769.1
		Orientation = 0,1,0
		RadiusOffset = 64.88483
		RotationAngle = 180.8
		RefLatitude = -0.114275623855832
		RefLongitude = 285.297817541944
		VisibilityRange = 25000
		Group = Ungrouped
		LaunchSiteName = Team 1 Lead
		LaunchSiteDescription = No description available.
		LaunchSiteType = ANY
		Category = Other
		OpenCost = 0
		CloseValue = 0
		OpenCloseState = Open
		FacilityType = None
		CustomInstance = True
		LaunchRefund = 0
		RecoveryFactor = 50
		RecoveryRange = 100000
		LaunchPadTransform = ksairracelaunch1_spawn
	}
	Instances
	{
		CelestialBody = Kerbin
		RadialPosition = 157163.5,-81.4812,-574741.1
		Orientation = 0,1,0
		RadiusOffset = 64.88508
		RotationAngle = 360
		RefLatitude = -0.00783517791621188
		RefLongitude = 285.293699224681
		VisibilityRange = 25000
		Group = Ungrouped
		LaunchSiteName = Team 2 Wingman
		LaunchSiteDescription = No description available.
		LaunchSiteType = ANY
		Category = Other
		OpenCost = 0
		CloseValue = 0
		OpenCloseState = Open
		FacilityType = None
		CustomInstance = True
		LaunchRefund = 0
		RecoveryFactor = 50
		RecoveryRange = 100000
		LaunchPadTransform = ksairracelaunch1_spawn
	}
	Instances
	{
		CelestialBody = Kerbin
		RadialPosition = 157258.5,68.5188,-574669.1
		Orientation = 0,1,0
		RadiusOffset = 64.78511
		RotationAngle = 360
		RefLatitude = 0.00658921899086962
		RefLongitude = 285.304340197405
		VisibilityRange = 25000
		Group = Ungrouped
		LaunchSiteName = Team 2 Lead
		LaunchSiteDescription = No description available.
		LaunchSiteType = ANY
		Category = Other
		OpenCost = 0
		CloseValue = 0
		OpenCloseState = Open
		FacilityType = None
		CustomInstance = True
		LaunchRefund = 0
		RecoveryFactor = 50
		RecoveryRange = 100000
		LaunchPadTransform = ksairracelaunch1_spawn
	}

Edited August 12, 2015 by colmo

[Alphasus]

I am starting a new tournament. Will be minimizing the mods, because 250 parts tends to drop my FPS when I am not recording.

[colmo]

I am starting a new tournament. Will be minimizing the mods, because 250 parts tends to drop my FPS when I am not recording.

Just when we were starting to settle on a points scheme, the balance shifts. Interesting requiring the radome - I understand there's a benefit to beyond 3.5km guard range using it, as well as for using AMRAAMs? Guns are next to useless at the moment, you might want to wait for Baha's next update.

I will be starting a tournament for this: The BiWeekly(tentative) Alpha Tournament.

Rules:

-No mods. (Except for BDarmory)

-Fights are 1v1

-Fights are best of 3

-The last flying aircraft wins. If both are destroyed in the sky, the round is considered a draw

-Part Count Cap of 125(Don't push this!)

-ALL DESIGNS MUST HAVE A COCKPIT, PROBES ARE NOT ALLOWED.

-REACTION WHEELS ARE ALSO NOT ALLOWED(except for the cockpit reaction wheels). They are stupidly OP.

-All designs must be within the point limit, which is stated below.

-All turrets MUST be fixed forward

-One entry per tournament, unless stated otherwise.

-No clipping fuel tanks or engines. They can be slightly clipped for looks, but not completely inside each other. Structural parts and ammo, guns, gear, etc. Is ok. Wings are OK as long as you're not putting all your wings inside the plane.

-All planes can and will be inspected without warning for rule compliance.

ALL PLANES ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE RADOMES!

60 point limit

-AIM-9 - 6 Points

-AIM-120 - 4 Points

-Chaff - 5 Points

-Flares- 5 Points

-Ammo Can - 4 points (all types)

-.50 cal turret - 4 points

-GAU 8 30mm - 14 points

-M230 - 6 points

-Vulcan Hidden - 7 points

-Vulcan Turret - 8 points

-Goalkeeper - Banned

-Abrams Cannon - Banned

-M102 - Banned

-Millennium Cannon - Banned

ABL Laser - Banned

ADDENDUM: All settings EXCEPT for teams will be used as provided. So, save your planes with guard and AI setups. No changes after the tournament.

Also, if anyone is found to be breaking the rules, they will be dropped into the loser's bracket, and it will be recorded as a loss. These rules are tentative, and so if a rule change occurs, you have until the next match to change the plane. I will do a temporary fix for that match.

Sign-up for the tournament allows for 16 planes. Sign-up occurs on this page:http://challonge.com/tournaments/signup/tKV5Op6xhe

Or, you can request to be added on this thread.

[Slam_Jones]

Gotta say I'm not really pleased that the update requires our jets to have more parts :S

Edited August 12, 2015 by Slam_Jones

[Alphasus]

I was taking the balance shift into account. AMRAAMS are quite bad on their own. Also, guns are useful. The next update will likely be out within the week, so I can start the tournament with working guns.

[Slam_Jones]

Yeah I noticed that AMRAAM's don't even get close to the enemies if they have a jammer. Gonna switch those out for Sidewinders, methinks....

Edited August 12, 2015 by Slam_Jones
Grammar