Pro SSTO builder/pilot Challenge

[A_name]

Any one? Doesn't matter if someone flew it already?

Also how will you know if I did it on my first go, just honor system or is there some kind of proof I need to include?

Bump.

[Nich]

Yes it is honer system. Danob and PB2.0 have near perfect scores however these are your best bet for getting to the top of the list. Neagle (flexs too much) and Neagle Infinity (requires a very good flight profile) are monsters no one has been able to ride but have potential to take the top spot. Space plane has not been flown but does not have a lot of potential with only 2 kerbal capacity.

As for a craft you have submitted I will need testing cost included with the submission and screen shots always help unfamiliar pilots with the flight profile. If you crash a design and the cost far out way possible points feel free to start with a new design, it took me 3 tries

Edited August 26, 2015 by Nich

[Starhawk]

I'm glad to see that this challenge is still active.

I took Slashy's PBtwopointO up for a spin. It was a bit more challenging than I expected.

The flight started off uneventfully. I tried to follow Slashy's specified profile closely.

Building speed nicely.

After lighting up the Nerva, I tried to pitch up as directed, but found she fought me hard. I lost a lot before I got her to hold the specified attitude.

I struggled with pushing the apo far enough out and it took a long time to get back out to 45 s. My margins were so thin as to be invisible.

Here I'm approaching Kerbin station which is in 100x100 km orbit. The tanks contain only vapours.

Here we are docked and ready to transfer crew.

Pulling away from the station with three familiar kerbals on board. I hope I can manage to deorbit.

A shot completely lacking in details. I guess I'm used to the KER HUD showing the apoapsis and periapsis right on the map screen. I didn't need much monoprop to dock, so had over 11 units remaining after undocking. I used it all to lower my peri (it only dropped it a little overall) and then burned all the remaining fuel to get the peri as low as possible. Managed to get it down to 43 km in the end.

I found that I wanted a bit more pitch authority. You have to make sure you're in the corridor earlier with a more 'sled-like' craft.

OK, I think I made it. Just need to judiciously apply the airbrakes. No propellant other than current velocity is available.

Touchdown at a manageable speed.

And we're home.

Overall I found her to be very easy to fly. I had a bit of a learning curve since my craft tend to be a bit more responsive (I suppose some would say 'twitchy'). I struggled at first to get the feel, but found it in time to get her there and home again.

If there's a category for 'made it by the skins of their teeth' this entry should be in it. That's only due to pilot error, though.

Thanks for the challenge!

Very happy landing!

p.s. I'm hoping to try a builder entry shortly.

[Nich]

Very nice flight I don't think I would have been able to reach 100x100 with my flight profile and you didn't lose a solar panel If you have the recovery cost you would probably beat me for second place. I will put you down as 9.19 for now.

[Starhawk]

I'll have to work it out the hard way, since I did it in sandbox. I'll let you know later what it comes out to.

Happy landings!

[Nich]

removed** Ha ha posted on the wrong thread lol

Edited August 27, 2015 by Nich

[GoSlash27]

I'm glad to see that this challenge is still active.

I took Slashy's PBtwopointO up for a spin. It was a bit more challenging than I expected.

The flight started off uneventfully. I tried to follow Slashy's specified profile closely.

http://i.imgur.com/tUNrK18.jpg

Building speed nicely.

http://i.imgur.com/znJfe49.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mdrFrUj.png

After lighting up the Nerva, I tried to pitch up as directed, but found she fought me hard. I lost a lot before I got her to hold the specified attitude.

http://i.imgur.com/nDYsxW5.png

I struggled with pushing the apo far enough out and it took a long time to get back out to 45 s. My margins were so thin as to be invisible.

Here I'm approaching Kerbin station which is in 100x100 km orbit. The tanks contain only vapours.

http://i.imgur.com/bQO5Lx9.png

Here we are docked and ready to transfer crew.

http://i.imgur.com/laiGx9b.png

Pulling away from the station with three familiar kerbals on board. I hope I can manage to deorbit.

http://i.imgur.com/YoPL8HA.png

A shot completely lacking in details. I guess I'm used to the KER HUD showing the apoapsis and periapsis right on the map screen. I didn't need much monoprop to dock, so had over 11 units remaining after undocking. I used it all to lower my peri (it only dropped it a little overall) and then burned all the remaining fuel to get the peri as low as possible. Managed to get it down to 43 km in the end.

http://i.imgur.com/gTs7REA.jpg

I found that I wanted a bit more pitch authority. You have to make sure you're in the corridor earlier with a more 'sled-like' craft.

http://i.imgur.com/5BCT8TK.jpg

OK, I think I made it. Just need to judiciously apply the airbrakes. No propellant other than current velocity is available.

http://i.imgur.com/ahEUx8v.jpg

Touchdown at a manageable speed.

http://i.imgur.com/ylJcu32.jpg

And we're home.

http://i.imgur.com/rUyYxUs.jpg

Overall I found her to be very easy to fly. I had a bit of a learning curve since my craft tend to be a bit more responsive (I suppose some would say 'twitchy'). I struggled at first to get the feel, but found it in time to get her there and home again.

If there's a category for 'made it by the skins of their teeth' this entry should be in it. That's only due to pilot error, though.

Thanks for the challenge!

Very happy landing!

p.s. I'm hoping to try a builder entry shortly.

Starhawk,

Congrats on the flight! I never really designed that SSTO for 100km orbit, so I think you've gotten about all the performance out of that design that can be had.

Best,

-Slashy

[Starhawk]

The recovery value for the flight of the PBtwopointO would have been 49187 for a flight cost of 714 credits. Six kerbals were flown to orbit.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's my builder entry.

I present the Stingray.

Testing costs were 1358 funds.

Action Groups

1. Switch Rapier mode and toggle intake.

2. Toggle docking port.

3. Undock.

Flight Profile

SAS on.

Full throttle.

Space to stage.

No need to touch the controls yet. She lifts herself off the runway at about 130 m/s. Stay level until you see the beginnings of Mach effects (around 260 m/s), then smoothly pull up to 30-35 degrees.

Switch SAS to 'Hold Prograde' at 7500 m altitude.

Switch SAS to 'Stability Assist' after you reach 420 m/s and pitch up to 12-15 degrees.

When you reach 12 km altitude, pitch down to the horizon until the vertical speed indicator gets very close to 10 m/s.

Allow pitch and speed to rise naturally. The shock cone may get really hot.

Watch your speed top out (should be over 1500 m/s) and allow it to begin dropping. *

Wait until 27 km before pressing 1 to activate closed cycle mode for the Rapier.

As soon as your apoapsis is over 36 km (just a couple of seconds), switch SAS to 'Hold Prograde'.

Kill engines when desired apoapsis is achieved.

Circularize.

Reentry is straightforward.

There are no airbrakes, so pitch is used to remove unwanted speed.

Because there are no airbakes, runway approach should be fairly low and slow.

Touchdown below 100 m/s for safety.

I used the Place-Anywhere RCS ports rather than the thruster blocks due to heat tolerance. My ascent profile is very aggressive and the thruster blocks have been found to be vulnerable. She should have enough to make 100x100 if flown optimally.

* I don't know if this is actually effective, but I did this during the test ascents. I guess it depends on the crossover point where the potential energy added in terms of altitude is less than the kinetic energy lost to friction.

Good luck, and...

Happy landings!

Edited August 28, 2015 by Starhawk
moar details

[GoSlash27]

I'll see your Stingray and raise you a "President Camacho".

http://wikisend.com/download/987652/Camacho.craft

Development cost $0. I haven't taken it out of the SPH, but I'm pretty sure it'll work.

I stumbled upon an odd principle and decided to post it here before I fly it. If it works, it should rack up quite a score.

Procedures: Pretty vague, so you'll have to wing it.

-It looks like it sits pretty low, so I wouldn't risk rotating it on takeoff.

-It should gradually build speed and barely get through Mach 1 at around 10km. Keep the AoA at 3° and cross your fingers.

-If it's like the others, you should be able to hit at least 1,400 m/sec before going closed cycle.

-I havent set up any action groups. Toggle the mode manually.

-Reentry: I haven't the foggiest idea. I'd expect it to be very aerodynamically clean. Airbrakes are available, so go with your best guess.

Best,

-Slashy

/now to try it and see if it flies...

- - - Updated - - -

I won't provide any impressions or recommended adjustments so this flight doesn't incur a development cost, but it does work.

Best,

-Slashy

Edited August 29, 2015 by GoSlash27

[Starhawk]

Dammit Slashy. I didn't even get to see if somebody else can fly the thing and you come along and completely kick it's ass!

I guess I'll give your new ship a go.

Happy landings!

[Starhawk]

Uh, that was not a good flight. The President Comacho is definitely not easy to fly.

She rotated nicely off the tarmac and I let her build speed up to about 250 m/s or so before beginning to pitch up. I immediately noticed a phantom roll induced each time I tried to adjust the pitch. The only roll authority on the vessel is the reaction wheel and the Rapier's roll authority, so it was very difficult to counteract. She was sluggish at the transsonic and I had to dive a bit to get through, but I expected that.

I fought with the controls every time I tried to adjust the trajectory, and I struggled to keep a heading. She gained speed nicely and got over 1500 m/s as she climbed.

Got 12 theoretical kerbals to 75x75 orbit with quite a bit of fuel left over. (They were theoretical because I forgot to load up the passenger bays.)

Reentry was initially routine, but the phantom roll reappeared and required constant adjustment. When I was over the mountains just west of KSC, I pitched up a bit and she flipped out. I had to do some emergency fuel pumping to regain control.

By the time I was back in control, I couldn't get her around to the runway and had to land on the flats. I taxied back to the runway, but the engine broke off and the airbrakes were destroyed as I tried to climb the ramp to get on to the runway.

The engine and tailfin were recoverable, so the cost of the mission is 993 for fuel, but 1000 more for the two destroyed airbrakes.

I think I need a ruling on the scoring for this.

In any case, I believe that the good folks at Peitz Aerospace Corporation may not find this craft 'extremely easy to fly and land'.

edit: Pics added.

Happy landings!

Edited August 31, 2015 by Starhawk

[GoSlash27]

In any case, I believe that the good folks at Peitz Aerospace Corporation may not find this craft 'extremely easy to fly and land'.

Starhawk,

I concur with everything you've said. I had all the same issues when I tried it. Had I taken a couple test flights before submitting the design, I could've ironed all of it out. Nevertheless, it looks like you're atop the "pro pilot" leaderboard despite that. That'd give you like 16 points... *if* it counts.

The Camacho is definitely not for the faint of heart in it's current condition.

Now that you've flown it, I can issue recommendations: Enable roll control on the canards and transfer remaining fuel forward before reentry.

Congratulations on handling the beast. It takes a good pilot.

Best,

-Slashy

Edited August 31, 2015 by GoSlash27

[Starhawk]

Starhawk,

I concur with everything you've said. I had all the same issues when I tried it. Had I taken a couple test flights before submitting the design, I could've ironed all of it out. Nevertheless, it looks like you're atop the "pro pilot" leaderboard despite that. That'd give you like 16 points... *if* it counts.

The Camacho is definitely not for the faint of heart in it's current condition.

Now that you've flown it, I can issue recommendations: Enable roll control on the canards and transfer remaining fuel forward before reentry.

Congratulations on handling the beast. It takes a good pilot.

Thanks Slashy. I realized it was all down to the zero development cost design strategy.

It was a fun challenge. Now if only somebody would fly the Stingray for me. Hint, hint.

You may want to be slightly less aggressive than the flight profile I posted with the design. It takes it pretty close to the danger zone if you ascend as directed.

Happy landings!

edit: In my jealousy at your amazing design, I forgot to congratulate you for pushing the limits that far. Congratulations!

Edited August 31, 2015 by Starhawk

[GoSlash27]

Thanks Slashy. I realized it was all down to the zero development cost design strategy.

It was a fun challenge. Now if only somebody would fly the Stingray for me. Hint, hint.

You may want to be slightly less aggressive than the flight profile I posted with the design. It takes it pretty close to the danger zone if you ascend as directed.

Happy landings!

Hint taken. I'm just making sure I've got the procedure down before I risk it.

Is there anything you recommend I should do with the remaining fuel prior to reentry?

Best,

-Slashy

Edited August 31, 2015 by GoSlash27

[Starhawk]

Hint taken. I'm just making sure I've got the procedure down before I risk it.

Is there anything you recommend I should do with the remaining fuel prior to reentry?

It's worthwhile to double check the tank contents for balance, but it should stay naturally balanced.

The fuel load should be enough to allow for a rendezvous with a station at 100x100 km and a deorbit without too much excess. YMMV.

And congrats again on the Comacho!

Happy landings! (keeping my fingers crossed)

[GoSlash27]

Starhawk,

It flies just fine. I established orbit without any fuss.

I arrived in orbit late, but that allowed me to save a little on the transfer to intercept, so no worries there.

But I *do* have a major worry in another department: This thing has no solar panels!

I'm monitoring it for now and rationing power.

Also, I must not have been quite as efficient on my launch. I have 100 m/sec to achieve the rendezvous. It should be enough.

Best,

-Slashy

Edited August 31, 2015 by GoSlash27

[Starhawk]

But I *do* have a major worry in another department: This thing has no solar panels!

I'm monitoring it for now and rationing power.

Um yeah. I hope you don't have issues there. Even if you lose power, the control surfaces should hopefully allow you to land safely.

I was going a bit too minimalist there, I guess. I had considered adding the inline battery. Probably should have.

Happy landings! (If I keep saying it, I know it will come true.)

[GoSlash27]

Successfully docked. Made it with less than 2 units of electric charge. It was definitely an emergency condition!

Still have plenty enough DV for deorbit, but I'm pretty scared to try it without the airbrakes...

Best,

-Slashy

[Starhawk]

Successfully docked. Made it with less than 2 units of electric charge. It was definitely an emergency condition!

Still have plenty enough DV for deorbit, but I'm pretty scared to try it without the airbrakes...

Damn. Two units? I use pitch to slow the craft on descent, but without power for reaction wheels, it's gonna be dicey. There is a fair bit of pitch authority, so you may still be able to manage the reentry. She's a sleek devil, though. If you don't get a big AoA, it can be hard to slow her enough. Still, she's not too heavy when empty, so there's that.

Looks like I may have blown it on this entry.

I'm hoping you prove me wrong, but I'm afeared.

Happy landings!

[GoSlash27]

Well... the battery recharged when I docked, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I had another 'senior moment'. I was waiting for an evening reentry window to maximize exposure for my solar panels

Suppose I'd best get on with it...

[Starhawk]

Well... the battery recharged when I docked, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I didn't even think of that. My own 'senior moment'.

Well good. With full charge you should have no problems. Just use pitch (extreme if necessary) to bleed speed.

[GoSlash27]

Welp...

The bad news is I dented the ship a bit (that'll buff out). The good news is I managed to save Val.

The ship is acceptable, it was pilot error that did it in. I was overly- aggressive on the s- turns and lost too much speed too early. I wound up coming down on the West side of the mountains in the dark. Found what I thought to be a suitable landing area and set it down fine, but it had an abrupt change in slope that I didn't spot until it was too late.

It rolled and disintegrated, but thankfully I was going slow enough to save Val and a few chunks of wreckage.

It had enough to do the job. I'd recommend adding speedbrakes, solar panels, and maybe moving the ailerons inboard some.

Final score +12 for kerbals delivered. -20 points for destroying the ship. -8. No kerbals were harmed in the filming of this catastrophe...

Sorry!

-Slashy

Edited August 31, 2015 by GoSlash27

[The_Rocketeer]

Could someone summarise the points formula for me in simple algebra? I'm not sure I understand these bits:

Points

-1 per 1000 Kredits spent (Subtract recovery value) (negative points do not get multiplied)

-10 per dead Kerbal

+2 per Kerbal rotated at a station (1-6) +1 (7-20) +.5 (21+)

+4 per ton of inert payload delivered to a station or orbit (0-3) +2 (4-12) +1 (13+)

+4 per ton of fuel delivered to a station (units of fuel *5 /1000) (0-3) +2 (4-12) +1 (13+)

Multiplier

1x Kerbin orbit

2x Mun orbit

2.2x Miniums orbit

All others TBD

Also, what counts as 'rotated at a station'? Do I need to actually swap Kerb for Kerb, or just drop, or just pick up, or what?

Edited August 31, 2015 by The_Rocketeer

[Starhawk]

Oh poop.

Thank goodness Val is OK! As far as buffing out the dents, I know a guy.

One of my experiences has been that without airbrakes it can be difficult to time the deceleration. I guess your run proved that point. Okay, if I want 'easy to land' I need to include airbrakes. Got it.

Hmmm. Not sure if I should hope for someone else to come along and have better luck with it, or if I should create a new craft from scratch.

Happy landings!

- - - Updated - - -

Could someone summarise the points formula for me in simple algebra?

It seems a bit arcane to me, but if you are rotating kerbals to a station, you get 2 points per kerbal if you rotate 1-6 kerbals, 1 point per kerbal if you rotate 7-20 kerbals, and half a point per if you rotate 21 or more.

Also, what counts as 'rotated at a station'? Do I need to actually swap Kerb for Kerb, or just drop, or just pick up, or what?

I don't think Nich is that strict about actually rotating the kerbals, but I could be wrong. I think that if you rendezvous and dock, that's probably good enough.

On my last run, I forgot to bring any kerbals! Still don't know if Nich will count that one.

Happy landings!

[Nich]

Yes I am not super worried about actually rotating kerbals however I am very strict on must dock with a station. I have been pretty lax with proof required as this is a "honer" based challenge that and I have flown most the craft anyways.

Don't worry I will give your craft a try and see if I can mange it.

As for scoring you were close but I believe you worded it a bit wrong so I will give an example.

Deliver 30 Kerbals to a station

First 6 give you 12 points

Next 14 give you 14 points

Last 10 give you 5 points

Total of 31 points

I dont know if I can do simple algbra but here is my try

{[1-6]2x, [7-20]x, [21-infinity].5x}

I hate non-continuous equations

Edited August 31, 2015 by Nich