Base-In-A-Box. Expandable modular surface base!

[CrashTestDanny]

Alright - I figured out what my problem was with landing B1.

Although it has a TWR of >1 (>25 even!) and the engines were pointed toward the surface and burning full, it was accelerating toward the surface. I was controlling from the top docking port, so the frame of reference was not the issue.

I was allowing MJ to deploy the LG, which were then clipping through the bay and into the engines, killing their thrust. Moral of the story - don't lower gear when landing boxes!

Danny

[CrashTestDanny]

Ok, so all three boxes are landed next to each other. Gonna wait for daylight to try [again] to build a base out of them, but my first attempt was not entirely successful. It was not entirely clear to me what order to release things in, so I tried dropping the docking ports on either end and then flipping the CRADLE upright and ready to fly. Only problem with that approach was that I got solar arrays being sliced clean off the parts inside the boxes... I'll try again in the daylight...

Speaking of daylight! Some lights on the outside of the cradle would really help the screenshots come out better!

Danny

[CrashTestDanny]

Here are some screenshots of my landings. Once I get to unpacking I'll post some of the completed base!

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Danny

[CrashTestDanny]

Ok, so I'm still having a heck of a time getting this right...

First problem was that every time I went to drop payload from the boxes, the solar panels would get ripped off. It seems to actually be about 90% of the time and I think the solution is to drop payload while putting in rcs input to take the box straight up (with the open bay facing down). Anyhow, I got everything unboxed.

Second problem that I have not been able to overcome, but I think will not be a big issue: There's a big battery sandwiched between two docking ports in box 2. It seems to be docked to the end of the ISRU and to the end of the C.R.A.D.L.E. So I decoupled the C.R.A.D.L.E.'s docking port but it immediately re-docked and then the battery detached from the ISRU. So the battery ends up sticking with the C.R.A.D.L.E. - weird, but the ISRU seems to have plenty of power...

Third problem (but I just figured it out!) is the three tubes. It was apparent that I needed to dock one of the modues to the center one and then separate it from the other two, but for the life of me I couldn't get it to dock! Then I realized that you stuck them together with the center tube docked to both other tubes and then rotated/offset them so they don't appear docked, so I put the rover and cupola module close to one of the ports on the center tube and then decoupled that tube and let the magnets take over. I'm guessing that's what you intended, but it took me a while to figure that out!

[CrashTestDanny]

Finally! It is completed!

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you Rune Base Alpha!!

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For me, the turning point for completing my assembly was realizing that I had to undock the port on the center tube in that bundle of three and have the rover in position so that the tube would be captured and not fall to the ground. Rune mentions in an earlier post that if that tube falls to the ground, it's probably useless. After that the last two big problems were the fuel dump ended up on its back and has no source of torque, so it was stuck there, and the battery that I mentioned earlier that had fallen to the ground. I actually managed to overcome both of these issues in much the same way. I pushed the tank around with the rover a bit and it ended up on its end, which was not a lot better, but the rover has so much torque I was able to push right up against the tank and turn the rover on its end and then use its rcs to lift it so it would dock. Then I used its torque to right it and the tank. Since I knew the rover had enough torque for that, I took the same approach with the battery only keeping the tank on top for a compatible dock. That rover is really something else! She flies very nicely, too!

[CrashTestDanny]

Interestingly enough, I just landed B1 on the Mun, planning to build a base for a contract, and said contract was completed just by landing B1... Good, cause finding flat spots on the Mun is not Fun...

[Rune]

Wow, those are awesome reports Danny! You certainly deserve a lot of kudos. Don't worry, they are uploading

Sorry I wasn't there to help you more, but it seems that you managed on your own just fine. A couple of notes for when you get around to the Munar base again, maybe?

First, the corridor without legs can actually be picked up by other corridors. I came up with the trick of deploying one "naked" to save parts when I noticed that. Also,m they are really powerful in reaction wheel power, as I'm sure you have found out, so I often just "walk" them around on their own. And yeah, the docking trick maybe should be explained a bit better... I'm sure it was a bit frustrating until you figured it out.

The battery spacer: it's just that, a spacer so the two modules fit the space and double-dock firmly. Feel free to drop it or leave it with the CRADLE. Actually, I positioned it with the idea of keeping the modules away from the swinging end of the CRADLE when you fire the separatrons but... honestly, it's been a while since I tested the things under high gravity. I'm mildly worried about those solar panels breakages you are talking about, might have a look at those later...

Oh, and of course you can now fire every decoupler in there and watch your part count drop considerably! Sorry about the mess, some of the litter will explode over time by themselves if you don't clean it from the tracking station manually, or with a creative use of KIS explosives.

You are toppling over the CRADLES before releasing the modules with open bay and the legs extended, right? I can't quite picture how that fuel dump ended up in that interesting position... Glad you figured out the awesome potential of that little rover, though. It's a trooper!

Rune. Also, a quicksave with the stuff safely landed is invaluable when you inevitably screw something up. At least I do!

[CrashTestDanny]

Wow, those are awesome reports Danny! You certainly deserve a lot of kudos. Don't worry, they are uploading

Sorry I wasn't there to help you more, but it seems that you managed on your own just fine. A couple of notes for when you get around to the Munar base again, maybe?

First, the corridor without legs can actually be picked up by other corridors. I came up with the trick of deploying one "naked" to save parts when I noticed that. Also,m they are really powerful in reaction wheel power, as I'm sure you have found out, so I often just "walk" them around on their own. And yeah, the docking trick maybe should be explained a bit better... I'm sure it was a bit frustrating until you figured it out.

The battery spacer: it's just that, a spacer so the two modules fit the space and double-dock firmly. Feel free to drop it or leave it with the CRADLE. Actually, I positioned it with the idea of keeping the modules away from the swinging end of the CRADLE when you fire the separatrons but... honestly, it's been a while since I tested the things under high gravity. I'm mildly worried about those solar panels breakages you are talking about, might have a look at those later...

Oh, and of course you can now fire every decoupler in there and watch your part count drop considerably! Sorry about the mess, some of the litter will explode over time by themselves if you don't clean it from the tracking station manually, or with a creative use of KIS explosives.

You are toppling over the CRADLES before releasing the modules with open bay and the legs extended, right? I can't quite picture how that fuel dump ended up in that interesting position... Glad you figured out the awesome potential of that little rover, though. It's a trooper!

Rune. Also, a quicksave with the stuff safely landed is invaluable when you inevitably screw something up. At least I do!

The game is slowly training me to hit F5 frequently... Unfortunately I did have to repeat my landings a few times... So legs - no, I didn't have them out when I unloaded the CRADLE - not for the fuel dump, at least. Would have preferred to do it that way, but the solar panel was being ripped off every time that way. It looks like the panel is clipped into the floor of the cargo bay when loaded, and so the cargo bay pulls it to the extended position while deploying and if there is any horizontal movement of the cargo bay before the panel is clear then it breaks it. So the trick for me - and I don't think it will work on the Mun - was to use RCS to fly the CRADLE as straight up as possible until it is clear of the panel and then get it the heck out of the way before it crashes onto something I don't want destroyed. I've gotten pretty good at flying the empty CRADLES on minimus and managed to get all three stacked up together with only minor explosions. I also found that they are good for tobogganing on the frozen lakes!

Oh yeah - figured out a couple of times that firing those decouplers was a bad idea at least before assembly - lol!

Anyhow - wanted to say again I appreciate all of your hard work on this thing!

- - - Updated - - -

oh - and about those legs... toggling them while the dump was on the ground sent it 50m up from the surface. That's how it ended up on its back. It got upended when I was trying to push it around with the rover. Turns out upended was an alright place for it. Minimus has minimal gravity... wow...

[CrashTestDanny]

Hmm... You said "when you fire the separations"... That would imply that I was supposed to do that at some point, huh?

hmm... We should work on a comprehensive procedure for deploying these things... Just in case someone else as dumb as me is trying to deploy them...

I did did start to deploy the b1 that I landed on the Mun yesterday, with disastrous results. I put the gear down and undocked one end (I think it was the heat shield end, but not certain now). As soon as I clicked undock, stuff started exploding. Cradle was laying down, doors open, open bay facing down on level (<2* slope). Since I wasn't smart enough to hit F5 before deploying and my closest auto backup was too far back, I just took the loss. I do have three new boxes on their way to the Mun now, and will definitely make a named save and a qs before I start unpacking them.

you have a shot of one of your bases by one of the arches. Which arch is that? Looks like a nice flat spot... Got coordinates for me?

[CrashTestDanny]

I think I found the arch - it's the one at 12*S x 140W, right? Anyhow, that's the one I finally decided to land by...

Have some pics of the landings for you here... Got two of them almost right on top of each other... probably started fiddling with the third too high...

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Gonna hit F5 now and try to unpack them!

Danny

[CrashTestDanny]

Would you believe after all that, when the first attempt at Box 1 failed spectacularly! I panicked and hit F5 again instead of F9! HyperEdit Ship Lander to the rescue! lol!

Anyhow, here's the procedure that I came up with for the Mun and it is similar to what I did on Minimus (never fired the separatrons - except during the spectacular failure mentioned above):

B1

control from top port - you probably crashed if you didn't already do this!

do not extend gear!

open doors

lay down gently (use RCS) with open bay facing the ground

still do not extend gear!

decouple dock closest to engines first

decouple the other dock second

use RCS translation keys to lift box off of contents and fly it to a safe landing spot (tested on Mun)

if all went well, press F5 - otherwise, F9!

B2

control from top port - you probably crashed if you didn't already do this!

open doors

lay down gently (use RCS) with open bay facing the ground

extend gear! (while laying down)

decouple dock closest to engines first, while applying upward thrust with the RCS translation controls (I)

decouple the other dock second as quickly as possible, while continuing to thrust upward.

use RCS translation keys to lift box off of contents and fly it to a safe landing spot (tested on Mun)

if all went well, press F5 - otherwise, F9!

B3

control from top port - you probably crashed if you didn't already do this!

open doors

lay down gently (use RCS) with open bay facing the ground

extend gear! (while laying down)

alt-right-click the dock on top of the rover (which is facing the floor of the cargo bay - gotta push the camera inside to select it)

alt-right-click the dock at the heat shield end of the CRADLE

apply upward RCS translation and undock the port at the heat shield end followed immediately by uncoupling the dock on top of the rover

continue thrusting upward and fly the CRADLE to a safe location (tested on Mun)

if all went well, press F5 - otherwise, F9!

Edited October 8, 2015 by CrashTestDanny

[CrashTestDanny]

So here's what I think happens in all of the unpacking failures: Parts (landing gear or solar arrays) get clipped into the cargo bay or something attached to it (like the landing gear going through the engines on B1, solar arrays joining the floor on B2 & B3. Going in there's no issue, the game allows that for some reason, but then they become part of whatever they clipped into and when you separate the parts by undocking, they are still joined by the clipped part(s), so when you try to fly the CRADLE off, it pulls whatever was clipped and everything attached with it. My procedure above eliminates clipping of the gear by not extending them before the cradle is gone. B2 and B3 is a little trickier because the clipping is with the solar arrays, which are buried deep inside the cargo bay and should not be extending. I think they are getting clipped by the floor of the cargo bay due to settling. So I probably am not eliminating that clipping at all, but by lifting the CRADLE's weight slightly with the RCS, I allow the part to get unclipped before making the sudden move of removing the CRADLE.

I think the solar array issues can be helped by making the outer edge of the solar array nearly flush with the surface you are attaching it to. I have been doing this very successfully with my designs and it looks cleaner. Just leave enough of it visible that it can be clicked.

[Majorjim!]

I will take a look at this and see if I can fix the release issues.

[Rune]

Hum. I just took a look myself, and I indeed found one problem... but it's not anything related to what you are talking about! The lab module on my file was oriented with its up-righting mechanism upside down, so I fixed that with the gizmo and re-uploaded. But, I just tested, and if you do things right, all the C.R.A.D.L.E.s release their payloads without issues under kerbin gravity! I broke no panels, and in fact it went smoother than I remembered. Here, a sequence so you can see the landing, tipping, releasing, and then disposal of each C.R.A.D.L.E.:

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Note that I tip them over with the airbrakes extended as bumpers, then retract them if they survived to swing the C.R.A.D.L.E. away over its engine section when I fire the separatrons (on low-gravity moons, you can of course use RCS instead if they are too powerful). Also, I always release the modules from the spot closer to the C.R.A.D.L.E., and using "decouple node" options. Also, that battery separator ends up as littler n the ground, as intended. But honestly, I don't know how you are blowing solar panels left and right... And don't open landing gears that clip when extended, that is an invitation to the kraken when you undock and they become two separate entities! Open your landing gears one by one, and strategically.

Rune. No launchpad was harmed in this "simulations".

Edited October 8, 2015 by Rune

[CrashTestDanny]

Here's a really cool box 1 failure sequence...

BTW - I also was able to unpack on Kerbin without problems - tested that before I launched the first one at Minimus.

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Danny. It's Kerbal - that means it's supposed to blow up, right?

- - - Updated - - -

But anyhow - the little rover worked tirelessly through the morning and we now have a fully functioning base on the Mun - Rune Base Beta 2. But then I got to thinking, with as many tourism flights as I've been making here, 1440 units of fuel isn't a lot to keep stockpiled... Go Big or Go Home - that's my motto! So I added a little bit of fuel storage capacity... now just need to send an engineer up to connect it with KAS...

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Danny. I'm getting pretty good at this precision landing thing too! Maybe I'll go for a simultaneous landing & docking soon!

[Rune]

Here's a really cool box 1 failure sequence...

BTW - I also was able to unpack on Kerbin without problems - tested that before I launched the first one at Minimus.

http://imgur.com/a/zxdIy

Danny. It's Kerbal - that means it's supposed to blow up, right?

- - - Updated - - -

But anyhow - the little rover worked tirelessly through the morning and we now have a fully functioning base on the Mun - Rune Base Beta 2. But then I got to thinking, with as many tourism flights as I've been making here, 1440 units of fuel isn't a lot to keep stockpiled... Go Big or Go Home - that's my motto! So I added a little bit of fuel storage capacity... now just need to send an engineer up to connect it with KAS...

http://imgur.com/a/O5sN6

Danny. I'm getting pretty good at this precision landing thing too! Maybe I'll go for a simultaneous landing & docking soon!

See, this is why you don't want to unpack with any extended gears on B1... they clip everywhere and keep the modules stuck to the C.R.A.D.L.E. First make sure that your modules have dropped to the ground and the C.R.A.D.L.E. is free to move away! Also, if you want more fuel storage space, you could always load a CRADLE with fuel dumps and/or mining modules. Both store about the same fuel, conversion aside. But I guess your way works, too.

Anyhow, really cool to see that you are getting good at this and overcoming the obstacles, and yeah, base-building gives you a lot of new skills.

Rune. Trying the hard stuff usually does.

[CrashTestDanny]

If it was easy everyone would do it...

Danny

[Majorjim!]

I had a look and yeah as long as you are careful there are no release issues.

[CrashTestDanny]

I had a look and yeah as long as you are careful there are no release issues.

Agreed - if you know how to do it, there's no problems. If you make a mistake in your process or if you don't know how, then you could have "issues"...

[Rune]

I had a look and yeah as long as you are careful there are no release issues.

Well, nice to hear confirmation. What do you think about the file, Jim? Anything that jumped at you in a specially good/bad way?

Rune. Feedback is always nice.

[Majorjim!]

Well, nice to hear confirmation. What do you think about the file, Jim? Anything that jumped at you in a specially good/bad way?

Rune. Feedback is always nice.

Sorry man, I had but the briefest of glances, only to test the release, all seemed well. They where nicely packed up though and It looked like it would be a lot of fun to out together!

[Jakalth]

Hmmm, I wonder how far your base in a box(in unpacked tug configuration) could be hauled using my Lamp Post drive section? You think Eeloo could be pulled off with 6000+m/s?

[Rune]

Hmmm, I wonder how far your base in a box(in unpacked tug configuration) could be hauled using my Lamp Post drive section? You think Eeloo could be pulled off with 6000+m/s?

I don't see why not, that Lamp Post is one powerful tug section. And Eeloo is not that far away in terms of energy, the trip there takes less dV than going for Moho. It's all a matter of relative speeds: it might take a long time to get there, but it only takes you ~3km/s to get your apoapsis to Eeloo's orbit, and when you get there, it is moving so slow matching orbit takes very little, another km/s or so. With more than five km/s you should have no issues at all.

Moho is the one that takes a lot: crossing its orbit takes about the same, but when you get there you have to match velocities with the fastest object on the Kerbol system. And still I think it can be done for only "a bit" more than that (~3km/s to circularize).

Rune. You would have to also take a Skycrane and/or Trident to drop the modules, though.

[CloudlessEchoes]

Figuring out how to assemble this slowly... I am failing to get some ports to dock in order to build the base. The large ports in particular aren't working. Any tips/tricks? I'm trying to assemble on the mun.

Edit: on the hab modules I can't get the rover to dock at all right now. It just wobbles around and doesn't attach.

Edit2: The rover issue was a bad state on it's docking port. Still can't get some sr ports to connect though. They don't even appear to have states in the file like normal ports do?

Edited October 16, 2015 by CloudlessEchoes

[CrashTestDanny]

how far off is the alignment when you're trying to dock them? where are you building? I had no problems with the Sr. ports on either of my bases, but I managed to find perfectly flat bases - first on one of the lakes on Min and second by the lower arch on the Mun.

As long as the fuel dump is not more than about half full, the rover should have enough torque and/or enough thrust in its rockets o fix some alignment issues (probably caused by not-quite-perfectly level terrain). Might also try moving it to the other end of the ISRU as there's another Sr. port there you could dock to...