[WIP][1.8.x] SSTULabs - Low Part Count Solutions (Orbiters, Landers, Lifters) - Dev Thread [11-18-18]

[blowfish]

Ehh? They look to me to be a fuel tank with some engines on the bottom? How/why do you need me to create them?

And either way... probably not. I have no interest in creating discrete liquid fueled boosters. A fuel tank+engine works fine.

The F1B intended for the SLS boosters is slightly different. The main difference is an exhaust port rather than the injection manifold. Picture here. If you were to do something like this, it would probably just be a two engine cluster - no need to attach a tank (though the tank is slightly different than others - it has liquid oxygen ducts on both sides, one feeding each engine). This is all purely informational of course - there are probably much higher priorities than this (and I don't particularly care about super-realistic looking engines anyway).

On the subject of feature requests, I have a rather open-ended one: It would be nice to have some sort of separation motors for the boosters. I'm not sure if it's possible to put them in the same part (though with some creative coding maybe). But I recall all the boosters having the same diameter, so even if they have to be separate it might be possible to have a standard set...

[JoseEduardo]

Since others suggested Pyros already, could I suggest a Jarvis too? here's a link to a PDF from an Orbiter mod that made some Jarvis variations: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30229.0;attach=475130

and here's some data from the original Jarvis concept: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/jarvis.htm

the tanks in your pack can make the first two stages without a hassle btw, in fact I got FASA, Procedural Parts and SSTU together to make a Jarvis launcher

but of course, this is just an idea

oh, and this is a thing that is happening, btw, idk why:

same booster works fine when side-mounted though

EDIT: found out, I was trying to make a lander with a center section that would decouple and then leave the first stage away (which was hollow), I tried adding a procedural interstage to one of the nodes inside of it thinking that it would work just fine, and apparently it broke everything underneath it....

Edited October 12, 2015 by JoseEduardo

[Shadowmage]

So what are you doing with the F-1 then?

Also the Pyrios is a booster with 2 F1B engines that have nice-looking mounts.

After a bit more research I have noticed the vast differences between the F1 / F1B. As such, the standard F1 would not work for those boosters, it is far too large (its like 2.5m diameter even after scaling 64% for KSP).

So.. if I can find enough reference materials, I might look at doing an F1B engine as well. Seems like it would fill a niche pretty well.

The F1B intended for the SLS boosters is slightly different. The main difference is an exhaust port rather than the injection manifold. Picture here. If you were to do something like this, it would probably just be a two engine cluster - no need to attach a tank (though the tank is slightly different than others - it has liquid oxygen ducts on both sides, one feeding each engine). This is all purely informational of course - there are probably much higher priorities than this (and I don't particularly care about super-realistic looking engines anyway).

On the subject of feature requests, I have a rather open-ended one: It would be nice to have some sort of separation motors for the boosters. I'm not sure if it's possible to put them in the same part (though with some creative coding maybe). But I recall all the boosters having the same diameter, so even if they have to be separate it might be possible to have a standard set...

I've had lots of requests for decouplers/separators, and I've been putting some thought into a booster-separation mechanism, unfortunately I haven't had the time to even start prototyping it yet. Ideally I want to strap a couple of thrust transforms for SRBs onto a decoupler, and move the thrust transforms around (up/down) in addition to some model geometry (for the clamps/struts/surround rings). However this is going to require yet-another plugin and set of models and textures (will likely be making models for 0.625, 1.25, 2.5, and 3.75m strut/attach rings), and as such I'm currently lacking a bit of motivation to do much on it. It could/should be quick once I start on it though. Perhaps I'll see if I can muster up the will to get this done this week.

Since others suggested Pyros already, could I suggest a Jarvis too? here's a link to a PDF from an Orbiter mod that made some Jarvis variations: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30229.0;attach=475130

and here's some data from the original Jarvis concept: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/jarvis.htm

the tanks in your pack can make the first two stages without a hassle btw, in fact I got FASA, Procedural Parts and SSTU together to make a Jarvis launcher

but of course, this is just an idea

I'm not really interested in doing any more vehicle specific stuff (unless it is truly unique and iconic -and- usable outside of its original use/modular). However I was already planning on doing the J2, J2X, and RL10(A+ engines; so, you should be able to make most of those vehicles with the existing fuel tanks and new engines when they are done.

What I could use some suggestions / links / info on are some smaller KEROLOX engines. It seems that there are tons of LH2 engines around, or at least info on them, but very little in the way of kerosine engines (at least American ones, where the info is readily available; have noted several Russian ones, but I have problems trying to locate enough reliable info/pics on that stuff do to them). I'm open to engines from wherever, but there needs to be a ton of pics and diagrams available for me to work on it. Prefer 3-view/engineering diagrams where possible; photos are even harder to work from (though sometimes necessary for getting the details that were not well presented in the 3-view). Or really just any engines with lots of diagrams/specs/pics available. At this point I'm not going to be picky; if there are enough reference materials I'll likely do one up.

[JoseEduardo]

this might help: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Diverse/Russian_Rocket_engines/engines.htm

also, Astronautix doesn't have many schematics, but has a lot of technical details

EDIT: there are some bits about the F-1B here btw: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_2/United_States_1/Space_Launch_System/Description/Frame.htm

Edited October 13, 2015 by JoseEduardo

[Shadowmage]

this might help: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Diverse/Russian_Rocket_engines/engines.htm

also, Astronautix doesn't have many schematics, but has a lot of technical details

Thanks, will take a look. Really need diagrams and schematics to do much though; I have a mathematical rather than artistic mind, and trying to do things from photos (with off-perspective, and lack of dimensions) only aggravates me and results in nothing of any good getting done.

Hmm.. anyone have more info on the F1B / Pyrios? (specs/images? All I can find is basically that -one- image that was linked earlier)

I'm trying to figure out how the heck they fit 2 of those engines underneath that booster. The engine is still huge (even though it is shorter/smaller diameter than the full F1), and there is no way that two of them would fit beneath a strap on booster when everyhing is done at KSP scale. At 64% the engine -bell- alone is 2.2m diameter (might go as low as 2m if I shorten it more); Just not seeing how two of those are supposed to fit under a 2.5m booster? (or even a 3.75m...just would not fit).

Hmm.. just found this (http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2410/1) that suggests the boosters will have 5.5m tanks (3.52m at 64% scale; would probably just use 3.75m). And at that, the engines stick -way- out of the sides of the booster. Hmm...

[blowfish]

Here is a decent plan view of the Pyrios. The engines definitely stick out the sides quite a bit. The stock Twin Boar is loosely based on it, but the proportions are very different.

[Shadowmage]

Here is a decent plan view of the Pyrios. The engines definitely stick out the sides quite a bit. The stock Twin Boar is loosely based on it, but the proportions are very different.

Awesome, thanks for the pic. Nice orthographic projection, and has dimensions!

Will see about doing some mock-up geometry for the F1B today (given that I already have large portions complete for the F1, it shouldn't take too long).

Hmm.. that wasn't too bad. Its likely not 100% accurate (nor can it be given that the engine it is based on only exists on paper), but it is probably good enough for KSP. Still have a bit to clean up and a few more detail bits to add. And all the mounting/fuel input stuff (for both, though the way I have them setup they should be identical).

And nearly finished regular F1 for comparison:

Edited October 13, 2015 by Shadowmage

[davidy12]

Not bad, can't wait to see the Pyrios boosters.

[riocrokite]

awesome work as always Shadowmage \o/

[davidy12]

Have you thought about adding Realplume support?

[Shadowmage]

Not bad, can't wait to see the Pyrios boosters.

I likely won't be doing the boosters (see the post above)... but... you'll have the engines and fuel tanks and nothing stopping you from making your own. Will likely even have a 2x F1B cluster with the wide shrouds on it. Will see when I get there (have not started on shrouds/mounting stuff yet).

awesome work as always Shadowmage \o/

Thanks Slowly getting the hang of modeling... enjoying some of this engine work a bit; its different than most of the modeling I've done. Playing around with some new tools and techniques. Going to be a blast come time to unwrap/UV map them though

Have you thought about adding Realplume support?

As I don't use it, I likely won't be adding it. I have no problem including some configs if someone wants to submit a set though.

In the meantime....

(not quite done... but very close)

Some of these are actually going much quicker than I had thought, at least for the initial geometry. Might actually have something on these in a few weeks... just gotta get at least a few more engines finished up as I want a decent initial selection for all stock stack sizes. Might cheat a bit and use rescaled temporary stand-ins until I can get a full set built up.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Shadowmage

[VenomousRequiem]

You're a wizard, Shadow!

[_Augustus_]

I likely won't be doing the boosters (see the post above)... but... you'll have the engines and fuel tanks and nothing stopping you from making your own. Will likely even have a 2x F1B cluster with the wide shrouds on it. Will see when I get there (have not started on shrouds/mounting stuff yet).

Thanks Slowly getting the hang of modeling... enjoying some of this engine work a bit; its different than most of the modeling I've done. Playing around with some new tools and techniques. Going to be a blast come time to unwrap/UV map them though

As I don't use it, I likely won't be adding it. I have no problem including some configs if someone wants to submit a set though.

In the meantime....

(not quite done... but very close)

http://imgur.com/jTmpJ7o.png

Some of these are actually going much quicker than I had thought, at least for the initial geometry. Might actually have something on these in a few weeks... just gotta get at least a few more engines finished up as I want a decent initial selection for all stock stack sizes. Might cheat a bit and use rescaled temporary stand-ins until I can get a full set built up.

Is that a J2X or RS-68?

[blowfish]

It's an RS-68. You can tell by the dual exhaust ports (the J-2 and its derivatives have an exhaust injection manifold)

[VenomousRequiem]

Is that a J2X or RS-68?

That's an RS-68, first stage of the Delta IV of course!

[Shadowmage]

Is that a J2X or RS-68?

RS-68

here is a J2-X / RS-68 comparison shot

I will be doing both the J2 (Saturn-V) and J2-X in the near future (probably next week/over the weekend). However I think my next couple will be some smaller engines -- Likely RL-10A-3 (fixed nozzle), A-4 (short extension) & B (long extension), and AJ-10 engines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJ10 - hypergolic, Delta II, Titan III, Apollo SM, Space Shuttle Orbital Engine).

I've actually learned so much regarding general rocket engine construction and engineering over the past week that I might end up 'making up' some engines if/when I run out of documented real-world designs. The basic concepts are pretty simple.... fuel lines and turbopumps (or pressure-feed setup). The exact implementation differs depending on what cycle type the engine is based on (staged, generator, expander, pressure-fed). The bits that I'm still a bit unsure on are the physical dimensions to performance characteristics; going to need a larger sample set before I could draw too many conclusions on that front (or perhaps I should just learn the actual 'rocket science' behind engine bell and combustion chamber physical layout/curves/shape/etc).

[JoseEduardo]

Jupiter and early SLS concepts intensifies

[falken]

Hard to keep up with all the parts that are being chucked in. Definetely has replaced ASET (lander module) and KW for rocket parts now.

I am however still using the KW Thor SRBs as they have superb effects and sound. Any plans to enhance these so they go more like Shuttle/SLS boosters?

[riocrokite]

Hard to keep up with all the parts that are being chucked in. Definetely has replaced ASET (lander module) and KW for rocket parts now.

I am however still using the KW Thor SRBs as they have superb effects and sound. Any plans to enhance these so they go more like Shuttle/SLS boosters?

yah agreed for sounds, if we could port SRB and I think the largest 5m KW engine (that delayed start punch!) sound into this mod it could be superb maybe some others sounds as well?

[stratochief66]

I have started RO configs for this already:

https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/tree/master/GameData/RealismOverhaul/RO_SuggestedMods/SSTU

JoseEduardo and I have got a head start. Niemand303 also expressed interest in helping. You're warning that they are not complete yet is well taken, and you won't hear any complaining from us if/when you change properties of the parts.

I intend to create RealPlume RO configs for the engines, really it is just a bit of configuration since Felger made doing that crazy easy.

My goal is to get the correct real SLS & Orion scaling and reasonable masses for the SLS Block I, then get that reasonable polished before moving on.

[RedParadize]

Hi Shadowmage

I realy like your stuff, realy. Your orion capsule is top of the line quality and have fonctionality that can't be found elsewhere. Its neat, combine many part and these jetisonable panel that act like cargo and sheild stuff inside is just awesome. I realy hope you keep going with this, and maybe do other capsule as well. I know there is many clone of the soyuz already. But I would love to have one that incorporate fonctionality that your Orion have.

RS-68

I've actually learned so much regarding general rocket engine construction and engineering over the past week that I might end up 'making up' some engines if/when I run out of documented real-world designs. The basic concepts are pretty simple.... fuel lines and turbopumps (or pressure-feed setup). The exact implementation differs depending on what cycle type the engine is based on (staged, generator, expander, pressure-fed). The bits that I'm still a bit unsure on are the physical dimensions to performance characteristics; going to need a larger sample set before I could draw too many conclusions on that front (or perhaps I should just learn the actual 'rocket science' behind engine bell and combustion chamber physical layout/curves/shape/etc).

If you are going this way, may I ask for more stuff? Could you do a customisable engine? With a choice of feeding mechanism, gimbals and bells? And maybe even multiple bell like the RD-170 family? That would be something!

[Shadowmage]

Hard to keep up with all the parts that are being chucked in. Definetely has replaced ASET (lander module) and KW for rocket parts now.

I am however still using the KW Thor SRBs as they have superb effects and sound. Any plans to enhance these so they go more like Shuttle/SLS boosters?

yah agreed for sounds, if we could port SRB and I think the largest 5m KW engine (that delayed start punch!) sound into this mod it could be superb maybe some others sounds as well?

I'll take a look at the SRB visual effects stuff, at least see what KW rocketry is using. There are a couple issues with the SRB that need to be resolved regarding effects, some likely will require some custom coding to get straightened out, or perhaps just custom effects with non-linear scaling. Not sure on the sounds end of things, doubt I'll be able to use their sounds though, and pretty sure there is nothing similar in stock. Will at least look into it though.

Please do let me know of suggestions such as that for sounds/etc... all that stuff generally slips my mind when I'm putting together configs.

I have started RO configs for this already:

https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/tree/master/GameData/RealismOverhaul/RO_SuggestedMods/SSTU

JoseEduardo and I have got a head start. Niemand303 also expressed interest in helping. You're warning that they are not complete yet is well taken, and you won't hear any complaining from us if/when you change properties of the parts.

I intend to create RealPlume RO configs for the engines, really it is just a bit of configuration since Felger made doing that crazy easy.

My goal is to get the correct real SLS & Orion scaling and reasonable masses for the SLS Block I, then get that reasonable polished before moving on.

Very nice, and thanks for the hard work. I'm sure many others will be thankful as well

Let me know if you run into any questions regarding any config/plugin stuff along the way, will be glad to help you sort it all out.

Hi Shadowmage

I realy like your stuff, realy. Your orion capsule is top of the line quality and have fonctionality that can't be found elsewhere. Its neat, combine many part and these jetisonable panel that act like cargo and sheild stuff inside is just awesome. I realy hope you keep going with this, and maybe do other capsule as well. I know there is many clone of the soyuz already. But I would love to have one that incorporate fonctionality that your Orion have.

If you are going this way, may I ask for more stuff? Could you do a customisable engine? With a choice of feeding mechanism, gimbals and bells? And maybe even multiple bell like the RD-170 family? That would be something!

Thanks I've tried to do things in a bit of a different way, glad you are finding them useful

I don't currently have any plans for other capsules...but if I do, the Soyuz stuff might well be on the list (seeing as how stock already has an Apollo-like module).

I've given quite a bit of though to the whole custom engines bit lately. Lots of thought. Ideally, yes, I would love to do something along those lines, and might eventually. For now though I will likely be sticking with pre-made engine models and allow choice of cluster configurations, engine shrouds, and perhaps some stats-only 'upgrade options' (might be texture switch even?). Heh, still working out all the details.

RD-170 is on the list of engines I am going to look into creating models for. No clue if I'll actually be able to do it or not, but I'm going to at least look into it at some point. Mostly it will depend on if I can find enough pictures/schematics. I'm slowly learning to do things a bit more free-hand with the modeling, but still fairly reliant on diagrams and such for physical accuracy.

Today's frustrating little gem:

One of the most often used upper stage engines, in one of its older variants

RL-10A-3-1 (the 1966 model)

Some of that piping was...not easy to figure out, and the turbopump assembly in real life has got to be the most convoluted assembly I have ever seen be cast by molds. So many ins, outs, shafts, gears...wow. And I thought the F1 turbopump was bad. Sadly, I'm not quite yet up to the task of trying to model the pump in too much detail... but I think I got the important bits. And there are many, many, different variants of this engine; trying to find consistent information was...ugh. I probably still have some details from other variants in there... hard to keep them all straight.

Also going to do 2 other RL-10 variants

RL-10A-4-2N -- modern day 'short' RL-10, which has a short extendable nozzle (in reality it is offered with no extension, fixed extension, or mechanical extension); minor thrust, isp, and mass increase

RL-10B-2-1 -- the long one, used on the ICPS and many others. Has a nozzle extension that more than doubles the length of the nozzle, and increases ratio from 84 to ~285. decent thrust and isp increase, but more than doubles the mass.

Should give a decent selection of upper stage engines as they all have fairly different stats IRL. Looking into a few other engines as well... but honestly the RL10 has been used almost exclusively for US upper stages (and I'm not all that familiar with the Russian stuff...yet). The other main candidate is the AJ-10 engine; a hypergolic thruster that has been (and still is) used everywhere, in many different variants. Between the two it should offer a fairly decent selection of smaller upper stage engines.

Not quite sure what to do regarding smaller lifter / lower stage engines. I suppose I'll have to look into some of the old missiles? Any suggestions towards that end?

Yes, I'm probably going to get 6+ engines made up with geometry only before I go onto the next step, as I need a good assortment of mounting and fuel inlet layouts in order to plan how the next pieces will work geometry wise (the mounting plates and fuel distributors for clusters). Hopefully I'll have enough engines by mid next week, and can start working on the mounting stuff for that weekend.

So, quick heads up that there might not be much/anything on this weekends update. I'll take a look into the effects stuff likely Sat. morning, so might have some of that ready. In the meantime, if you see any bugs you need squashed for this update, let me know sooner rather than later

[blowfish]

Not quite sure what to do regarding smaller lifter / lower stage engines. I suppose I'll have to look into some of the old missiles? Any suggestions towards that end?

If you end up doing the SpaceX Falcon engines, you could probably do clusters of various sizes - 3.75m x9 (roughly Falcon 9) and 1.25m x1 (roughly Falcon 1) are the obvious ones, but you could probably do 2.5m clusters of 3-5 of them.

And remember to work with what you already have too No reason why all of the RS-25 clusters have to be 5m. I forget the exact stats, but it's possible that a 3.75m x3 or 2.5m x1 variants could get some use.

Now, some notes on balance:

The Ship Core B (SLS) ICPS and HUS seem to have some balance issues - the ICPS has Isp consistent with stock engines but very little fuel relative to its volume, making it nearly useless. The HUS has higher Isp than stock engines and fuel storage more consistent with its volume (and more than 8x the thrust), making it somewhat OP. Would it be possible to unify these a bit more?

[Shadowmage]

If you end up doing the SpaceX Falcon engines, you could probably do clusters of various sizes - 3.75m x9 (roughly Falcon 9) and 1.25m x1 (roughly Falcon 1) are the obvious ones, but you could probably do 2.5m clusters of 3-5 of them.

And remember to work with what you already have too No reason why all of the RS-25 clusters have to be 5m. I forget the exact stats, but it's possible that a 3.75m x3 or 2.5m x1 variants could get some use.

Now, some notes on balance:

The Ship Core B (SLS) ICPS and HUS seem to have some balance issues - the ICPS has Isp consistent with stock engines but very little fuel relative to its volume, making it nearly useless. The HUS has higher Isp than stock engines and fuel storage more consistent with its volume (and more than 8x the thrust), making it somewhat OP. Would it be possible to unify these a bit more?

Aye, I will be offering the RS-25 in various cluster options as well / as part of the configurable engine stuff. However I have to redo it a bit to add all the plumbing/pumps and bring it in line with the other engine models.

On the ICPS/HUS balance -- yep, there is a pretty wide gap between them at the moment.

I'm fairly happy where the HUS is; it has been balanced (volume wise at least) to be in line with stock fuel tanks for resources and mass, and is intended as its name would suggest, a -Heavy- upper stage, to enable lifting of the 200-400t payloads that the system should be capable of. Which is also why it has gobs of thrust. I might have forgotten about the ISP; it is supposed to be down in the ~340 range.

The ICPS though, has been balanced towards being a dedicated range-extender for the CSM stack to enable Mun/Minmus operation (and is likely useless for any other purpose). I'm basically trying to emulate the performance stats you would get if the thing were actually LH2 powered, without breaking stock balancing in regards to ISP. I'm not entirely happy with it though, and will likely be redoing it a bit, but unsure what direction to go with it. Would love to bring it in-line with stock balancing; the problem is you end up with >3.5kms of dV from it (with the CMS on top) due to its volume, and it ends up weighing 35t by itself due to stock fuel densities and poor ISP, making it far too heavy and powerful for its intended purpose.

[davidy12]

So are you going to make an Ares rocket from Constellation?