WW2 BAD-T - World War 2 BDArmory AI Dogfight Tournament [FINISHED]

[Kunighit]

Make sure you've installed FAR correctly. If your control surfaces aren't working in means the module manger file wasn't put in the right spot I think.

[TUKE]

I installed it how you would with any other mod, just nothing produced lift, and the ailerons on large movement could correct ground roll.

[QuesoExplosivo]

Nobody going for biplanes? I guess I am going to win alone and pull it to the piston monoplanes category, which will be shameful, lol.

I have a biplane under construction, and it's almost done. I'm tweaking the control surface values so that the AI doesn't keep stalling it. The AI has a maximum speed setting, but not a minimum one, and also tries to fly like in stock aerodynamics. Particularly, excessive pitch-up right after take-off (when speed is still low) causes crashes.

The plane flies fine, but the AI is dumb.

[Azimech]

TUKE have you deleted the module manager cache? It can solve problems with installations. If you like, send a few failing designs to me and I'll troubleshoot them. I don't understand the FAR graphs and numbers but my planes do fly with ease.

[Darren9]

Is there a mod that spawns the pilot in his seat? I remember TT had one ages ago, does it still work?

Edit - NVM, I found Take Command.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Darren9

[tetryds]

Is there a mod that spawns the pilot in his seat? I remember TT had one ages ago, does it still work?

Edit - NVM, I found Take Command.

Lol I was spawning a cockpit right beside the airplane for the pilot.

Better add that mod to the list.

Edit:

@TUKE: Since you helped with this challenge it's not less than fair that I help you.

If you want you can send me your most promising design and I will fix it up.

But I will try to only make it stable, it will be up to you to set the control deflections (I know I will work more on it but I will try not to )

[colmo]

How is FAR working out in this challenge variant? Does it make much difference to designs, relative plane performance or framerate?

[Phearlock]

How is FAR working out in this challenge variant? Does it make much difference to designs, relative plane performance or framerate?

FAR is a lot about tradeoffs as usual. TWR, High speed performance vs Low speed performance (especially with the AI involved, as they can only really fly a plane at one speed), what engine setup to use, weight of weapons, you have to choose what you want, cause you can't have everything. Lot of fine-tuning compared to stock (as is the norm for FAR). Framerate is perfectly normal apart from a few hiccups in the SPH when FAR needs to recalculate a bunch of factors on the fly.

I believe FAR will cause a lot more difference in handling between planes than stock does, as you don't have to make as many tradeoffs in stock (CoM sliiightly in front of CoL, add wings and engines until desired turn rate is achieved). Aircraft aesthetics seem pretty diverse so far. But it's though to say until the challenge is finalized and more people submit their designs.

[tetryds]

@colmo: Phearlock nailed it.

About performance, FAR is actually lighter than stock for bigger vehicles! It has consistent performance so the processing it requires barely varies with craft size.

But it's important to note that it's easy to make stuff fly on FAR, the challenge is making something fly well and then give it to the AI.

Comparing this challenge to the stock one I would say that this one is way more complex, there are many factors involved and you must put much more effort into it.

[colmo]

Thanks for that. It sounds like using FAR is the pro version of the format.

Would you say stock parts are sufficient to allow enough design diversity, or are a few mods (e.g. Pwings) really beneficial?

[tetryds]

Thanks for that. It sounds like using FAR is the pro version of the format.

Would you say stock parts are sufficient to allow enough design diversity, or are a few mods (e.g. Pwings) really beneficial?

A stock craft can be just as good as a modded craft, mods only give them a bit more flexibility, which is very important for fine tunning.

But they are compatible and better balanced than what I would expect myself.

I mean, no one survives a row of 20mm... no one.

[Azimech]

Pwings are nice for part count, but if in combat you lose a wing, it's pretty final. I love pwings but build wings from multiple segments anyway. In real life totally removing a wing in one go during combat wasn't a rule, except when the root was severely damaged. Especially when being hit by bullets instead of shells, you'd just have a decrease in lift and increase in drag due to the holes.

A nice thing to play with is this Fluid Dynamics simulation. Select an airfoil from the barrier menu, then erase some pixels from the top and bottom. Play a bit with the visualization, viscosity and speed. A nice way to demonstrate the difference between the flap types, it might even be nice to visualize the interactions of a biplane.

Also in real life a part of a wing can already be stalling while other parts are not. A multi-segment wing in FAR will have the same effect.

PSA: when applying control limits, do not just look at pitch, a stalling aileron is sometimes even more dangerous. And make sure you have a large rudder with enough control authority, when your ailerons are stalling and you are in a spin, your rudder is your only way out.

[Phearlock]

I'd say Pwings is very very beneficial in this format, as you need very light wings for some designs, especially biplanes. Being able to have wings that are a fraction of the thickness of stock wings is a massive weight save.

[TUKE]

So i tried what Azimech suggested, no good, then i reloaded by biplane and messed around with the overlay enabled, i was getting more lift out of the structural beam the pilot sits on. Also it acts like my control surfaces move, but don't have any affect, because when i taxied it only the tail wheel did anything. This is with as little weight as possible.

tetryds what page was the new logo on? (I sorta want to put it m my sig.)

Edit: Something i just noticed, the CoL indicator in the SPH doesn't have a direction.

Edited August 3, 2015 by TUKE

[Azimech]

TUKE have you really tried a fresh install (in a different folder) with only FAR installed?

[tetryds]

@Phearlock: making b9 pwings thinner also make them lighter? Hmm, interesting, I thought it was just ahestetics as FAR does't care about wing thickness for now.

But bear in mind that weight is directly proportional to resistance, paper wings will pop off with a single 7mm shot.

@TUKE: you should really have one KSP install just for this challenge with no more than the mods allowed here, download some airplane posted here and check out if it flies.

It's hard to know if it's a bug or just the design but since that issue is not known (I do FAR QA) it may be you.

If some other plane doesnt fly either I will need a lot of data to nail down the issue and report it so that ferram4 can fix it.

@Azimech: true about losing wing parts, but I rather die with honor than fly injuried just to be finalized

[TUKE]

Well i created another (This is the third) copy of the game, got into everything and cleared out anything mod related, then installed FAR and it worked, and then reinstalled KAX + Firespitter and that works, so BDA is next and maybe BD's landing gear.

[tetryds]

Well i created another (This is the third) copy of the game, got into everything and cleared out anything mod related, then installed FAR and it worked, and then reinstalled KAX + Firespitter and that works, so BDA is next and maybe BD's landing gear.

Okay, great!

You can pick the badge from my sig, I will link it on the OP though.

[Darren9]

Procedural parts can give quite an advantage I think, you don't need anything as big and heavy as 1.25m, I've got 0.8m at the cockpit and 0.2m for the tail. I'm just gonna run 10 or 15 more before I change anything

[TUKE]

Unfortunatly i figured out which mod was breaking FAR, it was BDA, so now i can't use the ai or weapons. Different boat same situation.

P.S i also then uninstalled BDA and everything was fine and dandy again.

[tetryds]

So, I really liked making these WW2 weapons, I will check with VintageXP who made the kerbal model, banner and badge and maybe we could make a full WW2 weapons pack with custom models, I just need to talk to him.

@TUKE: I can stick the guns on it for you, but it seems that you are installing BDArmory wrog, check which folder exactly must go on your GameData, sometimes it's burried.

[TUKE]

So, I really liked making these WW2 weapons, I will check with VintageXP who made the kerbal model, banner and badge and maybe we could make a full WW2 weapons pack with custom models, I just need to talk to him.

@TUKE: I can stick the guns on it for you, but it seems that you are installing BDArmory wrog, check which folder exactly must go on your GameData, sometimes it's burried.

I've been installing mods since before the time of SP+ being stock, i know how to do it. And it's not that BDA doesn't work, but it just breaks FAR in the process.

Simply i have no clue ... is going on with it.

- - - Updated - - -

So, I really liked making these WW2 weapons, I will check with VintageXP who made the kerbal model, banner and badge and maybe we could make a full WW2 weapons pack with custom models, I just need to talk to him.

@TUKE: I can stick the guns on it for you, but it seems that you are installing BDArmory wrog, check which folder exactly must go on your GameData, sometimes it's burried.

After Bahamutod does the turret rewrite update im going to make custom models for all of the weapons in my pack, so maybe wait a bit.

[tetryds]

@TUKE: Even if you are not using any BDArmory parts?

That's weird, you can still send me your craft and I put weapons on it for you.

You can place something where the weapons should be.

Or just build the airplane then install BDArmory and place them yourself, as you wish.

Sorry if it sounded like you don't know how to do it, I didn't mean that, but it's normal to forget some details, I install mods wrong all the time lol.

I don't see why couldn't we have two ww2 weapon patches, mine will be dedicated to this challenge and more gameplay oriented than realistic values for the weapons.

About the parts, I forgot to mention that we will have both stock and modded most beautiful craft, and that the small 1.5m and Oscar-B rocket fuel tanks are allowed if you remove oxidizer from them.

Other oxidizer/monoprop-capable parts other than the cockpits are rocket grade parts.

[TUKE]

@TUKE: Even if you are not using any BDArmory parts?

That's weird, you can still send me your craft and I put weapons on it for you.

You can place something where the weapons should be.

Or just build the airplane then install BDArmory and place them yourself, as you wish.

Sorry if it sounded like you don't know how to do it, I didn't mean that, but it's normal to forget some details, I install mods wrong all the time lol.

I don't see why couldn't we have two ww2 weapon patches, mine will be dedicated to this challenge and more gameplay oriented than realistic values for the weapons.

About the parts, I forgot to mention that we will have both stock and modded most beautiful craft, and that the small 1.5m and Oscar-B rocket fuel tanks are allowed if you remove oxidizer from them.

Other oxidizer/monoprop-capable parts other than the cockpits are rocket grade parts.

That's ok, sorry if i came off a bit tetchy because this is frustrating the {Expletive deleted} out of me. And as for installing it i just drag and drop. But the most annoying thing is i can't tweak the AI to try and make it fly the plane properly. Also could i use the torridal 8 with the oxidizer removed?

Edit: Individually everything is ok, just it seems that the two mods have a brawl when they are both present, cept FAR always loses.

Edit2: How did you set up your sig?

[tetryds]

I will see if I can find something about your issue later, it could be moving turrets but I didn't have any problem with that.

Sorry the toroidal 8 is not allowed.

I set up my sig using tables.