WW2 BAD-T - World War 2 BDArmory AI Dogfight Tournament [FINISHED]

[Kunighit]

@Kunighit: it's a whole different beast.

Jets underperform at slow speeds, but perform much better at high speeds, you need to tweak and balance them differently and all that.

Think about it as another tournament, performance is relative, no other airplane beats a biplane at super slow speeds, and helicopters? TWR > 1 all the way.

Also, I may remind you the reasons why they call it sound BARRIER, hehe.

The general lack of agility of the jet class really makes me sad though... Was this how bad they were in the 1940s?

[TUKE]

Better performance at higher speed is all well and good, unless you can't get there in the first place.

[tetryds]

The general lack of agility of the jet class really makes me sad though... Was this how bad they were in the 1940s?

They were flying bricks indeed.

[TUKE]

Compared to a piston plane yes, but remembering that the likes of the Me-262 had a max speed of around 900km/h, where as a P-51D was about 450km/h, with those sort of speed s you get a much bigger turning circle.

[Azimech]

P 51D had a top speed of 700 km/h. At optimum altitude, something we never reach with this tournament (or we'd all be bored to bits, waiting for them to climb there).

So real energy fighting is out of the question, because the AI doesn't know or will not use B&Z. I'm seeing the AI wasting energy everywhere. They're like the rookies in IL2 1946.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Azimech

[TUKE]

P 51D had a top speed of 700 km/h. At optimum altitude, something we never reach with this tournament (or we'd all be bored to bits, waiting for them to climb there).

So real energy fighting is out of the question, because the AI doesn't know or will not use B&Z. I'm seeing the AI wasting energy everywhere.

Actually my monoplane uses BnZ, i just set the min alt real low and the default a fair amount above it, so that when it dives, it's speed with carry it below the min, so it will then climb like crazy again.

[tetryds]

P 51D had a top speed of 700 km/h. At optimum altitude, something we never reach with this tournament (or we'd all be bored to bits, waiting for them to climb there).

My piston monoplane has a top speed of 760km/h (820km/h on destructive tests) and reaches that on a shallow dive within less than one minute (takeoff + climb + dive)

Max speed during dogfight I have seen it reach was 670km/h.

But yes, some piston monoplanes should be able to compete with jets.

Edited August 5, 2015 by tetryds

[TUKE]

Mind you it does at least 540km/h in a dive.

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My piston monoplane has a top speed of 760km/h (820km/h on destructive tests) and reaches that on a shallow dive within less than one minute

Max speed during dogfight I have seen it reach was 670km/h.

But yes, some piston monoplanes should be able to compete with jets.

My monoplane couldn't run rings around my jet, it would have to be going so slow it would fall out of the air.

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Also quick Q, who has even semi functional jets?

Edited August 5, 2015 by TUKE
Grammar .... did it

[tetryds]

Btw, I have a doubt about the takeoff profile, it has a big impact on the battle.

Should it be randomized between a few different setups or what?

I have trainer jet which will probably become my entry.

[sal_vager]

It might be most fair if the planes are placed back to back in the center of the runway, assuming everyone can take off on half a runway.

[TUKE]

120m/s and i'm only getting 10.6kn of thrust out of each engine, this is with a 5.5t jet with pleanty of lift. Plus it has now finally climbed to 1350m.

[tetryds]

It might be most fair if the planes are placed back to back in the center of the runway, assuming everyone can take off on half a runway.

I can place them on the sides, one team going north and another going south, but they have too much tendency to engage frontally, which is more luck than anything, and not very fun.

What about 90 degrees angle?

I am also thinking that jet battles should be 1x1 then allow 120 parts each, not sure yet.

Edited August 5, 2015 by tetryds

[Kunighit]

I say let them take off parallel to each other then start combat 1min after the last plane leaves the ground. (1 minute RL not KSP lag time)

[TUKE]

I say let them take off parallel to each other then start combat 1min after the last plane leaves the ground. (1 minute RL not KSP lag time)

That won't work for jets though.

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Besides it also rules out the point of the ability to get airborne quickest.

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I can place them on the sides, one team going north and another going south, but they have too much tendency to engage frontally, which is more luck than anything, and not very fun.

What about 90 degrees angle?

I am also thinking that jet battles should be 1x1 then allow 120 parts each, not sure yet.

I would say keep it as it is, because unless you have more engines, you probably won't have enough power to get airborne yet alone be competitive.

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Ok with some tweaking Towbar might just work.

[VentZer0]

I can place them on the sides, one team going north and another going south, but they have too much tendency to engage frontally, which is more luck than anything, and not very fun.

What about 90 degrees angle?

I am also thinking that jet battles should be 1x1 then allow 120 parts each, not sure yet.

I tested my designs against eachother like this:

Park 2 of them on opposite sides of the runway, one pair facing north the other facing south.

Check all autopilots and weaponmanager settings, and lauch one pair at a time.

Once all of them are climbing to first altitude (normally set to ~2000 and min altitude set to 1500, so that they don't go 90° pitch up) I set the altitude for ~3000 and speed things up.

After a couple seconds they are ready I let them circle a bit around to get their corner speed and then I set one pair to Team B, and fight's on!

[tetryds]

@VentZero: it makes sense that both teams start in flight but I don't change the AI parameters.

There is also what TUKE mentioned, a plane that is compromised to takeoff faster would be penalized.

I think I will go for the following:

One team takes off from the runway, the other team takes off from the side of the runeay angled around 30 degrees to the left.

Even a very heavy x very light battle setup does not make them go face to face.

Faster topspeed is in advantage because you get away then go back with energy, faster takeoff allows you to engage early if set up properly, so both strategies work.

This works for all classes and is very easy to set up.

Now I just wish the taildragger wheel didn't behave like if it was a steerless rubberball...

[VentZer0]

@VentZero: it makes sense that both teams start in flight but I don't change the AI parameters.

There is also what TUKE mentioned, a plane that is compromised to takeoff faster would be penalized.

I think I will go for the following:

One team takes off from the runway, the other team takes off from the side of the runeay angled around 30 degrees to the left.

Even a very heavy x very light battle setup does not make them go face to face.

Faster topspeed is in advantage because you get away then go back with energy, faster takeoff allows you to engage early if set up properly, so both strategies work.

This works for all classes and is very easy to set up.

Now I just wish the taildragger wheel didn't behave like if it was a steerless rubberball...

The only settings I changed are the min and max altitude ones.

This way you get neutral fighting positions for the contest. Otherwise the twin engine planes will wreck all planes with only one engine just by sheer speed and climbrate advantage.

Also I noticed that BD-AI behaves somewhat stupid when they shoot down a plane. I would suggest placing weaponmangers on different parts than the Cockpit. AI planes will go after the stupid cockpit with the weaponmanager even if it's already detached from the rest of the plane .. ie destroyed. But they dont care they dive after it and breaking up while doing it because they pull to many G's.

Other thing would be to increase weapon damage. Let's face it the damage is not what it should be if we look at the damage WW2 Planes put out against eachother back then. With 20mm MKs it should go like TOK TOK TOK *wing gone*

Anyways just my 2cents

[tetryds]

But altitude settings are what defines the behavior of the AI more than anything else.

Nah, twins are not as good as it seems, its only good for low speeds but after a few secs it's not faster than a D-25.

Guns are strong enough IMO, they hit just like they should.

It's not that easy to survive a 20mm shot.

Edited August 5, 2015 by tetryds

[Darren9]

Are there any rules against um, excessive offset plus struts that I noticed on sal_vager's gunbus? Mine is an attempt to gain an advantage rather than create a replica - bullets pass through like there's nothing there

[tetryds]

@Darren9: yeah but sal's entry was a biplane, I won't accept something like that on the piston monoplane or jet entries.

[VentZer0]

But altitude settings are what defines the behavior of the AI more than anything else.

Nah, twins are not as good as it seems, its only good for low speeds but after a few secs it's not faster than a D-25.

Guns are strong enough IMO, they hit just like they should.

It's not that easy to survive a 20mm shot.

Well they get you higher quicker which means you will be faster, twin engine fighters are more boom and zoom kind of planes anyways.

Didn't know that the Altitude affected the AI behaviour that much, but yeah you're right I tested it. But I suggest noone used 150 as their min altitude for boom and zoom, they kiss the ground too often

So far everyone is using 20mm MKs and the amount of hits you can sustain is pretty high afais. If you get a direct salvo then ok its just like bam and gone. But occasional hits dont do much damage, considering we fire bullets at eachother with 50grams of TNT in them (I held a 20mm round in my hands once, it had a 50g TNT warhead.)

How are you gonna make the battles anyways? Record them and upload the vids to youtube or something like that?

I suggest this to generate the mood :3

[tetryds]

Yes but you only survive 20mm rounds if they don't hit the same part.

Also remember that damage on BDArmory is heat (which gives some cool hp bars and regeneration).

That means that heavier parts are stronger by default, thats how 7mm works against biplanes but only two are not enough for the other planes.

It's also nice to know that you are not doomed on a single shot

And I wonder why everybody is underestimating the D-25, I will enter with my trainer piston monoplane just to show you what it's all about, let's see what happens.

Yes I will record and post on youtube.

Bear in mind that the pace I can make the videos is slow as my time is restricted atm, so I am aiming for one per day, starting today (thats also why I will have to enter with my trainer craft).

But in september I will be able to post more often.

The yt channel will be created today it's the place where I will post my FAR tutorials after I record them

[Phearlock]

Regarding the D-25: With how much the AI was bleeding energy inefficiently all the time, I either had to lower maximum deflection (force it to turn worse), or come up with a design that will quickly gain and expend energy. Once it was down to those two options, I didn't feel like the choice was very difficult. Empirical tests also so far have my twin sport designs outperforming my D-25's. I'm not going to say the D-25 doesn't have it's place, but the aircraft I came up with seemed better suited to being powered by the twin sports in the end.

Also, with my current home-brew testing. The aircraft I'm most worried about is the VZ-38, it flies very well, and the reinforced tail section is very resilient.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Phearlock

[Kunighit]

Yes but you only survive 20mm rounds if they don't hit the same part.

Also remember that damage on BDArmory is heat (which gives some cool hp bars and regeneration).

That means that heavier parts are stronger by default, thats how 7mm works against biplanes but only two are not enough for the other planes.

It's also nice to know that you are not doomed on a single shot

And I wonder why everybody is underestimating the D-25, I will enter with my trainer piston monoplane just to show you what it's all about, let's see what happens.

Yes I will record and post on youtube.

Bear in mind that the pace I can make the videos is slow as my time is restricted atm, so I am aiming for one per day, starting today (thats also why I will have to enter with my trainer craft).

But in september I will be able to post more often.

The yt channel will be created today it's the place where I will post my FAR tutorials after I record them

I don't underestimate the D-25. In fact I think its a more powerful set up than the other 2 options since you changed its performance value to 80%. My whipped together D-25 tractor is just more agile than my 2x aerosport pusher. It might be the engines aren't balanced or maybe my design isn't that great. I'm kind a kicking myself for making a prop fighter with such a low wing aspect ratio thinking I could use it for the jet bracket. And I do know that's part of my agility issue but nothing less of a complete redesign will fix that. So its staying as is.

[VentZer0]

Regarding the D-25: With how much the AI was bleeding energy inefficiently all the time, I either had to lower maximum deflection (force it to turn worse), or come up with a design that will quickly gain and expend energy. Once it was down to those two options, I didn't feel like the choice was very difficult. Empirical tests also so far have my twin sport designs outperforming my D-25's. I'm not going to say the D-25 doesn't have it's place, but the aircraft I came up with seemed better suited to being powered by the twin sports in the end.

Also, with my current home-brew testing. The aircraft I'm most worried about is the VZ-38, it flies very well, and the reinforced tail section is very resilient.

That's what I like to hear :3 Which one is your plane?

Also the AI reverses a turn far too often when it should extend instead.

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I don't underestimate the D-25. In fact I think its a more powerful set up than the other 2 options since you changed its performance value to 80%. My whipped together D-25 tractor is just more agile than my 2x aerosport pusher. It might be the engines aren't balanced or maybe my design isn't that great. I'm kind a kicking myself for making a prop fighter with such a low wing aspect ratio thinking I could use it for the jet bracket. And I do know that's part of my agility issue but nothing less of a complete redesign will fix that. So its staying as is.

I see your plane doing flatspins allover the place, good thing that the AI can handle that It climbs really well tho, high TWR.