[1.4] SpaceY Expanded, v1.5 (2018-04-02)

[Gaarst]

NecroBones, what do you plan to do with the Kiwi? It was never particularly impressive with its efficiency (and also worse TWR than Mainsail and only slightly better TWR than Skipper), but with the Vector around now there doesn't seem to be anything going for it.

I personally find the Kiwi extremely useful: it is the only engine with thrust around 400kN.

I usually use it single or two at a time under 2.5m first stages boosted with SRBs, for rockets around 100-150t.

- - - Updated - - -

There you go:

Really simple rocket design, 115t on the launchpad, puts 5.8t to LEO in RSS with Real Fuels, TWR ranging from 1.4 to 3.3 at full thrust (using the Kiwi was actually the only way I could get that balance for this rocket).

First stage is 2 Kiwis and 2 Kickbacks.

[NecroBones]

NecroBones, what do you plan to do with the Kiwi? It was never particularly impressive with its efficiency (and also worse TWR than Mainsail and only slightly better TWR than Skipper), but with the Vector around now there doesn't seem to be anything going for it.

I personally find the Kiwi extremely useful: it is the only engine with thrust around 400kN.

I usually use it single or two at a time under 2.5m first stages boosted with SRBs, for rockets around 100-150t.

Don't worry, it's not going away. I'm just tweaking it a little bit. Remember, it does unlock in a tech node that's after the original 1.25m engines, but still two nodes earlier than the new Vector. So to help bridge the gap a little more seamlessly, I'm slightly boosting its ISP and reducing the mass, so that the TWR is between the reliant/swivel and the Vector. The ISP is still slightly lower than the others, but it's also half of the cost (in terms of "funds to thrust" ratio) of what the Vector costs. So it should be able to still fill the same niche it's always been in, but is a little better balanced in the new engine lineup.

Edited November 10, 2015 by NecroBones

[More Boosters]

Don't worry, it's not going away. I'm just tweaking it a little bit. Remember, it does unlock in a tech node that's after the original 1.25m engines, but still two nodes earlier than the new Vector. So to help bridge the gap a little more seamlessly, I'm slightly boosting its ISP and reducing the mass, so that the TWR is between the reliant/swivel and the Vector. The ISP is still slightly lower than the others, but it's also half of the cost (in terms of "funds to thrust" ratio) of what the Vector costs. So it should be able to still fill the same niche it's always been in, but is a little better balanced in the new engine lineup.

I'm not sure if it was intended (I'm assuming Kiwi was modelled after the Merlin 1D and you probably just subtracted 400 from 825 and called it a day ) but the thrust (not TWR ratio which, however silly it sounds, will be the basis of my argument) ratio between the real SSME and KSP's vector is roughly the same for your Kiwi, which would give out 444 kN (rounded to three significant figures) of thrust. Your Kiwi gives 425 at vacuum, so that's remarkably close to what Squad deemed appropriate for stock balancing, but looking at the TWR ratio between SSME and KSP's Vector again, 73.1 (rounded to three significant figures) divided by Vector's TWR of 25, gives us 2,924, which should be the ratio between Merlin 1D TWR and Kiwi TWR. Dividing Merlin 1D's ridiculous 180 TWR with this number gives us a TWR of 62, rounded to two significant figures, and at 2 tons this implies a thrust of 1215 (1240) kN (rounded down).

I can tell that you don't want to balance it in this manner, but this math implies that, if the Vector is balanced, then the Kiwi isn't. Granted, Vector is probably one of the better engines, but we should remember that its TWR is beaten by the Mammoth and is equal to that of the Mainsail so make your own judgements there. Of course Kiwi also has nerfed Isp to fit KSP standards (I'm not sure how you calculated those and I'm not going into that) so keep that in mind too. This might be an idea for a Vector+, rather than something to make Kiwi relevant on where it currently is.

So let's assume this is a Merlin 1C. (it probably always was but I'm too lazy to delete my earlier assessment which may be interesting in some regards) The thing is considerably wimpier, topping out at 480 kN vacuum thrust (420 kN sea level) with less Isp and a TWR of 96. Using our magic ratio of 2,924 we get a TWR of 33 (rounded to 2 significant figures), now that's more within the realm of reason. Less dedicated lifting engines have TWR in the vicinity of 25, so 33 certainly seems reasonable for good old inefficient Kiwi. We get 647 (660) kN out of this, but we don't want to upset Gaarst so at a mass of 1.5 tons, with 431 (440) kN, Kiwi is a stock-balanced Merlin 1C. This is probably what you had in mind all along so sorry if I wasted your time. All these numbers are from Wikipedia so I hope they aren't too inaccurate.

Edit: I forgot to mention the Isp thing, well, it's hard to compare Vector to the SSME here as the SSME uses cryogenic fuel while Vector is make believe and I don't have much insight into how the other engines compare to their real life counterparts. I do know that they're generally lower so Kiwi should be quite alright at 431 (440) kN, 1.5 tons and no Isp change.

Edit 2: Darn it! I calculated stock-balanced thrust using a surface gravity value of 10 m/s^2 when 9.80 m/s^2 would have been more appropriate. The older values with 10 m/s^2 are still in parantheses and they are certainly nicer values to look at so I'm not removing them.

Edited November 10, 2015 by More Boosters

[Kolago]

There is a problem with the SYtank7m-Specular:

PartCompiler: Cannot replace texture 'SYtank7m-Specular' as cannot find texture 'SpaceY-Expanded/Parts/FuelTanks/SYtank7m-Specular' to replace with

[NecroBones]

So let's assume this is a Merlin 1C. (it probably always was but I'm too lazy to delete my earlier assessment which may be interesting in some regards) The thing is considerably wimpier, topping out at 480 kN vacuum thrust (420 kN sea level) with less Isp and a TWR of 96. Using our magic ratio of 2,924 we get a TWR of 33 (rounded to 2 significant figures), now that's more within the realm of reason. Less dedicated lifting engines have TWR in the vicinity of 25, so 33 certainly seems reasonable for good old inefficient Kiwi. We get 647 (660) kN out of this, but we don't want to upset Gaarst so at a mass of 1.5 tons, with 431 (440) kN, Kiwi is a stock-balanced Merlin 1C. This is probably what you had in mind all along so sorry if I wasted your time. All these numbers are from Wikipedia so I hope they aren't too inaccurate.

Edit: I forgot to mention the Isp thing, well, it's hard to compare Vector to the SSME here as the SSME uses cryogenic fuel while Vector is make believe and I don't have much insight into how the other engines compare to their real life counterparts. I do know that they're generally lower so Kiwi should be quite alright at 431 (440) kN, 1.5 tons and no Isp change.

Edit 2: Darn it! I calculated stock-balanced thrust using a surface gravity value of 10 m/s^2 when 9.80 m/s^2 would have been more appropriate. The older values with 10 m/s^2 are still in parantheses and they are certainly nicer values to look at so I'm not removing them.

Yeah, the numbers will be similar. It's not meant to be a direct analog to a specific engine, but the Merlin 1C is definitely the closest to being its "inspiration". However the balance is really being arrived at by making it a sort of mid-point between the Reliant/Swivel engines and the Skipper, but since it was "the new heavy thrust engine" for the 1.25m diameter (prior to the Vector), I also gave it some drawbacks-- Most notably the lower ISP. Now its place in the lineup needs a little tweaking, so that it's not too badly obsoleted. But the niche it's filling is still a good one, I think.

There is a problem with the SYtank7m-Specular:

PartCompiler: Cannot replace texture 'SYtank7m-Specular' as cannot find texture 'SpaceY-Expanded/Parts/FuelTanks/SYtank7m-Specular' to replace with

Which part is complaining about that? The file exists. So it's probably a placeholder in another folder that's having the problem. I'm not seeing the error on my side.

[More Boosters]

Yeah, the numbers will be similar. It's not meant to be a direct analog to a specific engine, but the Merlin 1C is definitely the closest to being its "inspiration". However the balance is really being arrived at by making it a sort of mid-point between the Reliant/Swivel engines and the Skipper, but since it was "the new heavy thrust engine" for the 1.25m diameter (prior to the Vector), I also gave it some drawbacks-- Most notably the lower ISP. Now its place in the lineup needs a little tweaking, so that it's not too badly obsoleted. But the niche it's filling is still a good one, I think.

Yes the niche it is filling is a good one, it's just a little underpowered right now. I'm just saying that you shouldn't buff its Isp but instead buff its thrust slightly and its mass quite a bit so it is a stock-alike balanced Merlin 1C, pretty much. 1.5t / 440kn fits it very well where it is. If you buff specific impulse then its uniqueness is kinda gone.

[NecroBones]

Yes the niche it is filling is a good one, it's just a little underpowered right now. I'm just saying that you shouldn't buff its Isp but instead buff its thrust slightly and its mass quite a bit so it is a stock-alike balanced Merlin 1C, pretty much. 1.5t / 440kn fits it very well where it is. If you buff specific impulse then its uniqueness is kinda gone.

OK cool, I'll think about that.

[Kolago]

Which part is complaining about that? The file exists. So it's probably a placeholder in another folder that's having the problem. I'm not seeing the error on my side.

PartLoader: Compiling Part 'SpaceY-Lifters/Parts/FuelTanks/tank5m3mAdapter/SYtank5m3mAdapter'

PartCompiler: Cannot replace texture 'SYtank7m-Specular' as cannot find texture 'SpaceY-Expanded/Parts/FuelTanks/SYtank7m-Specular' to replace with

and 6 more, full log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wt9038v5w92v5t/output_log8.zip?dl=0

[NecroBones]

PartLoader: Compiling Part 'SpaceY-Lifters/Parts/FuelTanks/tank5m3mAdapter/SYtank5m3mAdapter'

PartCompiler: Cannot replace texture 'SYtank7m-Specular' as cannot find texture 'SpaceY-Expanded/Parts/FuelTanks/SYtank7m-Specular' to replace with

and 6 more, full log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wt9038v5w92v5t/output_log8.zip?dl=0

Oh! This is completely normal if you don't have "SpaceY Expanded" installed. The texture definition still has to be created in case you do have it installed. I could probably add some more MM configs to reduce the log spam, but this isn't hurting anything.

[Kolago]

Ok, thanks!

[NecroBones]

Released:

0.9 (2015-11-11) - KSP 1.0.5 update.
 - Corrected the display-name of the "Gigantic Structure" tech node, instead of displaying it as a second "Massive Structure" node.
 - Diameters added to 7.5m fuel tank names, for easy identification in VAB menu.
 - Updated heat shield to current stock ablator settings and contract constraints. Slightly increased ablator quantity.
 - Updated all engines to use FXModuleAnimateThrottle for heat animation.
 - Engines, fairings, decouplers/separators updated to use new stock-alike thermal settings and contract constraints.
 - Lightened the color and "grain" of the white texture on fuel tanks (will also affect 5m tanks).

[PickledTripod]

On 2015-11-10 12:30:38, More Boosters said:

NecroBones, what do you plan to do with the Kiwi? It was never particularly impressive with its efficiency (and also worse TWR than Mainsail and only slightly better TWR than Skipper), but with the Vector around now there doesn't seem to be anything going for it.

I haven't played career in 1.0.5 yet but AFAIK the Kiwi is vastly cheaper and unlocked much earlier that the Vector. Very useful for early game expendable 1.25m launchers, I like that engine.

I think that question belongs in the main SpaceY thread though.

EDIT: sorry for reviving this discussion which had been pretty much settled, somehow when I clicked the last page button it took me to page 7 and I thought your post was the latest in the thread.

Edited December 4, 2015 by PickledTripod

[NecroBones]

12 hours ago, PickledTripod said:

EDIT: sorry for reviving this discussion which had been pretty much settled, somehow when I clicked the last page button it took me to page 7 and I thought your post was the latest in the thread.

 

No problem, we're all still adjusting to the new forum. I deployed the changes, though right now it still has a typo in the heat-animation definition. I've been sitting on it waiting to see if I get any other updates together, since it seems silly to push an update for that one thing. But I may just push it as a "minor patch" release anyway. 

[NecroBones]

Update posted:

 

1.0 (2015-12-17) - Stable.
 - Let's call this the 1.0 release. Things have been pretty stable lately.
 - Added "SpaceY_ATM.cfg" with settings to attempt to disable or dissuade ActiveTextureManagement for this mod.
    - Can optionally be deleted to return to ATM defaults.
    - ATM known to occasionally have caching issues with remapped/shared textures in my mods.
    - SpaceY is already very memory efficient and uses DDS, so ATM doesn't help much for this case.
    - May need to delete ATM's cache if using ATM and some textures still aren't appearing.
 - Updated 7.5m stack decoupler:
    - Ejection charge reduced by half (to 500, down from 1000).
    - Added built-in "sepratron" solid propellant separator motors.
    - Research cost increased slightly.
 - Replaced "placeholder" textures. Smaller, and more obvious when texture reassignment has failed.
 - Corrected a texture assignment problem on the 7.5m E2 engine.

Edited December 17, 2015 by NecroBones

[GERULA]

a very great mod from all points of view...and I feel ashamed when I think that in the past I opted for other mods due to that memory limit crap thing and skip this one, now it becomes a must have....damn it, too many are

[NecroBones]

5 hours ago, GERULA said:

a very great mod from all points of view...and I feel ashamed when I think that in the past I opted for other mods due to that memory limit crap thing and skip this one, now it becomes a must have....damn it, too many are

LOL yes, my list has grown rather long too.

[WuphonsReach]

Fortunately, 64bit Linux KSP exists. 

(With everything installed and ~50 flights in progress due to RemoteTech satellite networks, I'm at around 4.9GB used for KSP.)

[CrashTestDanny]

20 hours ago, NecroBones said:

1.0 (2015-12-17) - Stable. - Let's call this the 1.0 release. Things have been pretty stable lately.

Sorry to have to be "that guy", but soon as I downloaded this and FTP, a bunch of the SpaceY Expanded and FTP textures began appearing as all magenta...

Guessing you'll want the ksp log:  https://www.dropbox.com/s/w4w2vv413bq8xtq/KSP.log?dl=0

Thanks again for all your support!

Danny

 

[CrashTestDanny]

It's not breast awareness month already, is it?

Danny

[NecroBones]

1 hour ago, CrashTestDanny said:

Sorry to have to be "that guy", but soon as I downloaded this and FTP, a bunch of the SpaceY Expanded and FTP textures began appearing as all magenta...

Guessing you'll want the ksp log:  https://www.dropbox.com/s/w4w2vv413bq8xtq/KSP.log?dl=0

Thanks again for all your support!

Danny

 

Yep, you're seeing the placeholder textures. That's the reason I made them magenta this time, is to make it obvious when things are missing. It might be a silly question, but do you have SpaceY Lifters installed? A lot of this pack depends on that. If you didn't have that installed, I'd expect to see exactly what you're seeing, and it also means you've been playing with just the horrifically low-res placeholders until now. If that's the case and it's intentional and you want to keep doing that, then I'd suggest installing Lifters and then deleting everything in it except the textures.

     EDIT: I see those SRBs, so yes you do have Lifters installed. Did change the folder name or anything like that?

 

Otherwise, I'm starting to put together a troubleshooting list for this sort of thing, over in the Lifters thread:

 

Problem: Textures are missing and you're seeing a lot magenta (purple/pink):

1. Files may be missing, or not where the mod is expecting to find them.

   Fix: Make sure you've installed the mod correctly, in its entirety, and in the right location. Don't rename folders. You can try completely deleting the mod and reinstalling (which is the best way to update the mod anyway). Also make sure the mod's dependencies are installed (SpaceY Expanded requires SpaceY Lifters, for instance).

2. ActiveTextureManagement is goofing it up.

   Fix: Either remove ATM, or try deleting ATM's cache. ATM frequently has cache issues that cause problems for texture reassignment across folder boundaries. ATM doesn't help as much as it used to, now that stock KSP and most mods use DDS texture format. We've included configs to try to stop ATM from processing this mod's folder, but that may not be working either.

Edited December 18, 2015 by NecroBones

[CrashTestDanny]

Looks like deleting ATM's cache is the cheap option.  Will try that first.  I do have Lifters.  I have not renamed any folders or moved.  Will let you know after the ATM rebuild...

[CrashTestDanny]

Clearing ATM cache solved the issue.  Thanks again for helping!

Danny

[CrashTestDanny]

2 hours ago, CrashTestDanny said:

Clearing ATM cache solved the issue.  Thanks again for helping!

Danny

However, the problem came back... how odd...  ATM doesn't like your new textures for some reason?  Anyhow, I removed ATM altogether and now my install is using 400M less RAM than before... odd...

Danny

[blowfish]

22 minutes ago, CrashTestDanny said:

However, the problem came back... how odd...  ATM doesn't like your new textures for some reason?  Anyhow, I removed ATM altogether and now my install is using 400M less RAM than before... odd...

Danny

ATM is sort of in an odd place now as most textures are compressed to begin with.  Always good to make an actual comparison to see if it's doing what it's supposed to.

[CrashTestDanny]

21 minutes ago, blowfish said:

ATM is sort of in an odd place now as most textures are compressed to begin with.  Always good to make an actual comparison to see if it's doing what it's supposed to.

Yeah - So it would seem.  I was a little surprised that my memory usage went down...

Danny