Video games are influencing the course of Science

[PB666]

Mandated opinions

-I thought the video was cool

-Really refreshing the games that move away from hallway shoot-em up to games like KSP and Spore.

-Think that having multiple threads dealing with space weapons should be merged, and the whole discussion is a bore and not reflective of actual space science.

[Camacha]

-Really refreshing the games that move away from hallway shoot-em up to games like KSP and Spore.

They are not moving away. Simulations have always been there and will always be there. Among the first games was a tennis game played on a computer meant for ballistic calculations. When I started to get into games, SimCity was a big thing and I spent endless hours building and sometimes destroying cities. Though somewhat crude for today's standards, even those games were realistic enough to unintentionally mimic real life emergent behaviours, like water side properties being more expensive.

The key to this all is not technology, but human nature (or even just nature period). Humans learn by playing, discovering things, building things, testing and strengthening relationships and learning about and pushing social boundaries. Technology is just a means to do that. If lions were to be more technologically adept, there are bound to be overthrow the dominant male games.

You final remark is one for the mods and not really a discussion item.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Camacha

[Slam_Jones]

-Think that having multiple threads dealing with space weapons should be merged, and the whole discussion is a bore and not reflective of actual space science.

(No offense)

OT:

Simulations have certainly been a part of video games for a long time. Some of the first games I played were SimCity (the original, even), Age of Empires, etc. For a long time, I wasn't interested in FPS shoot-em-ups, but I've learned to enjoy them. As long as people are interested in a certain type of game, there will be those who wish to profit off of it, ergo, games of that type.

But it is pretty awesome how the more our technology improves, the better the simulations we can run, to the point where we can actually (as stated in OP) help direct and understand science.

[PB666]

lol, I was told that I could not present a link with out giving an opinion. The reality I often present links because I want to know others opinions. BTW meme images are verboten. JFYI

OT: Simulations have certainly been a part of video games for a long time. Some of the first games I played were SimCity (the original, even), Age of Empires, etc. For a long time, I wasn't interested in FPS shoot-em-ups, but I've learned to enjoy them. As long as people are interested in a certain type of game, there will be those who wish to profit off of it, ergo, games of that type.

But it is pretty awesome how the more our technology improves, the better the simulations we can run, to the point where we can actually (as stated in OP) help direct and understand science.

OK, but this is not about that, its about moving from the game world to the real world. For example I had exactly no clue how to make a 3D model before playing KSP, now of course Win 10 has a 3-d modeler, but its pretty crappy compared to blender. If I need to make a model of say a molecule now I could pretty easily do it, as long as the program which I send it to can handle blender. We use 3-D models, but we can't actually make them, that is for some computer specialist in some special department.

Molecular dynamics (the first in the video) is actually pretty important, a game that can get the molecule to fold at low energy state and allow the user to try to fold it within the thermodynamic limits is one way to discover how proteins get through the tight spots in protein folding, or if they can get through tight spots. This could be very important time saver in genetic engineering because previously you have to make a gene and see if it will fold or not, now you can stop the folding at the hold up point and (comparing native with engineered) see what is the major holdup in folding by manually moving a side-chain around. Of course if there is a neutral site that is blocking the folding, you can essentially co-transform the second site so that it accommodates the fold.

[Camacha]

lol, I was told that I could not present a link with out giving an opinion. The reality I often present links because I want to know others opinions.

You cannot present a link without giving out an opinion regarding that link. Common etiquette also states you provide a short summary of what you think an article or clip actually said (as people sometimes understand wildly different things from the same piece of information). Reproducing what are the important bits to you and why you feel they were important is what starts an interesting discussion. If you omit that, it is just like opening a door of a room, shouting Scientists agree that yellow is an awful colour and then closing the door again

I found this article that states that KSP is a terrible game for reasons X and Y. I feel this is interesting because of Z. Of course, of you take Q and K into account X might make sense. However [...]

What do you think about this?

BTW meme images are verboten. JFYI

Posts that only consist of such an image are, not the images themselves.

OK, but this is not about that, its about moving from the game world to the real world.

Like I said, this has been happening right from the start Simulations and games are very similar and sometimes simply the same.

[Kibble]

Are you going to complain about having to put your opinion of a link, on every new link you post? Sheesh.

The reason that is a thing is so that the person posting the thread can also kick off the discussion. Because forums are for discussion.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Kibble

[PB666]

Are you going to complain about having to put your opinion of a link, on every new link you post? Sheesh.

The reason that is a thing is so that the person posting the thread can also kick off the discussion. Because forums are for discussion.

Yes, it is an opinioin, and I did kick off a discussion, about how people in this group obsess about click-bait and have a no-nevermind attitude about the other much heftier junk that gets posted about

unsupportable space fantasies, Such as putting buckminster fullerines floating cities in the unstable volatile atmosphere of Venus.

Complain about click-bait and I can give you my opinion about a link and how it fits into the other topics of the group which I also have an opinion of.

Science is about expanding the boundaries of science, it is about researching and or communicating that which is novel. I have made discoveries and published them without giving an opinion of what they mean. Should I gather convincing data on what they mean I might publish, but to publish on what something means before having the logical legs to stand on is what charlestons do.

- - - Updated - - -

You cannot present a link without giving out an opinion regarding that link. Common etiquette also states you provide a short summary of what you think an article or clip actually said (as people sometimes understand wildly different things from the same piece of information). Reproducing what are the important bits to you and why you feel they were important is what starts an interesting discussion. If you omit that, it is just like opening a door of a room, shouting Scientists agree that yellow is an awful colour and then closing the door again

I found this article that states that KSP is a terrible game for reasons X and Y. I feel this is interesting because of Z. Of course, of you take Q and K into account X might make sense. However [...]

What do you think about this?

Posts that only consist of such an image are, not the images themselves.

Like I said, this has been happening right from the start Simulations and games are very similar and sometimes simply the same.

If I think a link I present is crap, I will generally say so, if I want you guys to read the link and offer an unbiased opinion, I wont say anything. Think of it as giving you a free chance to decide unencumbered by the thought process. (From click and clack the tappet brothers).

I run simulations, spent several months doing monte-carlo its not a game, its a bunch of numbers spewing down an excel spreadsheet,

MSFS is a simulator that can also be used as a game, WOW is not a simulator its a game.

Using the gaming environment with virtual controls is somewhat interesting feedback from the gaming world.

[Camacha]

MSFS is a simulator that can also be used as a game, WOW is not a simulator its a game.

You say that with certainty, but there really are no clear boundaries between the two. It is, at best, a spectrum. World of Warcraft might not be a simulator in the sense that it mimics real life plains filled with mythical creatures, but there are a lot of real world elements that can be practised and trained through it. Research done a little while ago indicated that avid players of WoW actually are better team players in real life and better at management tasks. If you would call it a management simulator or trainer, you would actually not be talking nonsense

If I think a link I present is crap, I will generally say so, if I want you guys to read the link and offer an unbiased opinion, I wont say anything. Think of it as giving you a free chance to decide unencumbered by the thought process. (From click and clack the tappet brothers).

That sounds very altruistic, but in reality it shifts the effort being made from you to the forum goers that do not have a clue whether your link is actually worth their time. You apparently do not even think it is worth a lot of time, considering you do little more with it than just posting it.

Are you going to complain about having to put your opinion of a link, on every new link you post? Sheesh.

The reason that is a thing is so that the person posting the thread can also kick off the discussion. Because forums are for discussion.

You say it so very eloquently: forums are for discussion. Not for plunking down links and hoping for the best.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Camacha

[PB666]

You say that with certainty, but there really are no clear boundaries between the two. It is, at best, a spectrum. World of Warcraft might not be a simulator in the sense that it mimics real life plains filled with mythical creatures, but there are a lot of real world elements that can be practised and trained through it. Research done a little while ago indicated that avid players of WoW actually are better team players in real life and better at management tasks. If you would call it a management simulator or trainer, you would actually not be talking nonsense

That sounds very altruistic, but in reality it shifts the effort being made from you to the forum goers that do not have a clue whether your link is actually worth their time. You apparently do not even think it is worth a lot of time, considering you do little more with it than just posting it.

i value that opinion about as highly as your opinions concerning click-bait. I select the links carefully, generally they have to be pertinent to subforum topics, novel in that they have not, to my knowledge, have been presented before, represent some form of science or advanced technologies, and finally stear folks away from space fantasy topics that they dwell on to topics that might actually have some meaning in space. If i don't enjoy the link I will not present it, thats all you need to know. If the link troubles me i will say so, just as if your opinion about what is click baitvtroubles me i will say so.

[Camacha]

i value that opinion about as highly as your opinions concerning click-bait.

This is about making posts that put the burden on the reader, rather than the poster. Every book and scientific paper has a cover text or abstract that tells the reader why it might be worth reading something and that is for good reason. If you ask people to invest their time, it is reasonable to tell them at least why. If you want to start a discussion, at least discuss something and field an opinion.

Click bait is a term used for threads that use a intentionally misleading title or text to lure users in. This is certainly is an issue, but not the issue at hand.

[PB666]

This is about making posts that put the burden on the reader, rather than the poster. Every book and scientific paper has a cover text or abstract that tells the reader why it might be worth reading something and that is for good reason. If you ask people to invest their time, it is reasonable to tell them at least why. If you want to start a discussion, at least discuss something and field an opinion.

Click bait is a term used for threads that use a intentionally misleading title or text to lure users in. This is certainly is an issue, but not the issue at hand.

Then why propogandize the issue with falacies. I my opinion offends you should find that your propogandizing what is click bait offends me. Since we are ok with throwing inappropriate opinions out then you should not mind me sharing mine, right, doing to others ........,

[Bill Phil]

We're all friends here. Or we should at least try to be. So everyone chill out. We have a right to our opinions.

[vger]

Nuts. I was hoping this would be about concepts introduced by video games influencing science and tech development. In the same way that sci-fi television and films of past decades have contributed to how our world looks now.

[YNM]

PB666, you're posting near-clickbait video links. You're not clickbating, but you're eaten by one.

Yeah really, I was hoping that we were talking of how KSP may inspire some guys at NASA to do this :

Or, at least, how does KSP affects the development of a Mars mission ! Or anything along that line, not what is produced out of it. Or maybe how video games exposes more people to scientific methods, hence creating a new interest in science. True that they may help the course of science, but that's because of more manpower (first case), or actually technology itself is getting there. Even if video games weren't there people can still dream of steerable bullets, because... well, you want fast training anyway right ?

[Camacha]

Then why propogandize the issue with falacies. I my opinion offends you should find that your propogandizing what is click bait offends me. Since we are ok with throwing inappropriate opinions out then you should not mind me sharing mine, right, doing to others ........,

Despite having tried multiple times, I am not sure what you are trying to tell me.

[pxi]

The first computer I owned - a ZX Spectrum +2 - came with a cassette that included amongst other things, a version of Conway's Game of Life, and a simulation of Rabbit and Fox populations.

This stuff is not new by any stretch.

[Moach]

(...) games like KSP and Spore. (...)

Spore? Spore?!! SPORE?!!!!

SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There... *grunt* was.... NO!... *angry sound* Such.. Game... as.... <grudge> "spore" </grudge>

*end scene*

*begin actual intended comment*

now, there's a video I must definitely watch! -- I long believed, and kinda hoped this would be the case, and nice to see a concurring development on the notion that games, much like their largely-less-awesome forefathers "movies", can have such a result as to affect the way of scientific pursuit in such ways

this is really cool!

cool....

*compulsively back to rant*

...very awesome:

<gollum> Theyss ruined it! They Ssstole it from usss! </gollum>

*grabs (figurative) bucket of popcorn*

*watches video*

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moach

[Vanamonde]

Discussions in a thread, including opinions, should be about the topic of the thread. Disputing what should be allowed in a thread is off-topic, and getting close to "backseat moderating' (3.2). Please stick to the subject, guys.

[PB666]

PB666, you're posting near-clickbait video links. You're not clickbating, but you're eaten by one.

Yeah really, I was hoping that we were talking of how KSP may inspire some guys at NASA to do this :

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/six_words.png

Or, at least, how does KSP affects the development of a Mars mission ! Or anything along that line, not what is produced out of it. Or maybe how video games exposes more people to scientific methods, hence creating a new interest in science. True that they may help the course of science, but that's because of more manpower (first case), or actually technology itself is getting there. Even if video games weren't there people can still dream of steerable bullets, because... well, you want fast training anyway right ?

Space lasers cause you know everyone likes the PEW, PEW sound.

[RainDreamer]

Relevant to this topic, and because I don't feel like making a new thread, as this is not exactly science:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=46916

Dante Lauretta, Leader of the NASA OSIRIS-REx asteroid sample return mission and University of Arizona Professor, combined his expertise in space mission planning and technology with his passion for strategy gaming to create Xtronaut: The Game of Solar System Exploration. The Xtronaut game captures the various challenges and excitement of planning a space mission.

...

Xtronaut: The Game of Solar System Exploration gives 2 – 4 players ages 7 and up the chance to develop space missions and explore the solar system. The game is based on real planetary missions and rocket science. It also contains elements of politics and strategy that are inspired by the real-life situations that space missions face. The game has been tested with players that range from elementary school students to graduate students in planetary sciences and mission scientists.

It is a board game. Kickstarter page here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/827615927/xtronaut-the-game-of-solar-system-exploration

Edit: actually, I can just make a new thread in the lounge forum...

[PB666]

Relevant to this topic, and because I don't feel like making a new thread, as this is not exactly science:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=46916

It is a board game. Kickstarter page here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/827615927/xtronaut-the-game-of-solar-system-exploration

Edit: actually, I can just make a new thread in the lounge forum...

Why don't they just make a mission pack with KSP and provide out of game extension pack?

[RainDreamer]

Why don't they just make a mission pack with KSP and provide out of game extension pack?

Maybe they didn't want to deal with licensing other's IP? *shrug*

Maybe we can connect them somehow...I really like the idea of multiplayer on that board game where they compete over limited government funding/parts to complete their mission. Sounds like something I could fore see being a possible KSP mode too.