FAR Fighter Challenge BD Armoury AI: 2!!

[Van Disaster]

Ok, new entrant: here's the Swallow F1 ( more or less the plane in the pic above ). I should have time for last minute fixes at the rate we're going, anyway

[link pulled - see next page for F2]

So, guesses on which company's naming scheme this one is using? ( most of mine have been themed, if nobody's picked that up... )

Edited October 22, 2015 by Van Disaster

[The Optimist]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/96dvbzjwhne3awv/Illusion%20Mk%20IV.craft?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tclj8kujcgy6f09/Ascender%20MK%20V.craft?dl=0

[Van Disaster]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/96dvbzjwhne3awv/Illusion%20Mk%20IV.craft?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tclj8kujcgy6f09/Ascender%20MK%20V.craft?dl=0

I couldn't find an autopilot unit on the Ascender to try it! I'm not sure if the no-engine-clipping rule affects the other one without pulling it apart, but given they're on seperate nodes it should be ok ( clarification please boss? ). You should probably test with the cockpit reaction wheels off though ( and make sure the AI autopilot settings match those in the OP, they'll get disabled before an actual match.

If this was an actual match the Illusionist would be champ, the D-10d has just shot itself three times in a row

Edit: wait, scrutineering fail: one chaff + one flare dispenser only. But: I tested it against my Swallow & all it did was fly big circles, it's that intended?

Here's a quick twitch stream of it, I'm not sure that's really what you had in mind...

http://www.twitch.tv/richarddastardly/v/21785879

@SpaceplaneAddict: can you update the current champ & the contender queue please?

Edited October 21, 2015 by Van Disaster

[SpaceplaneAddict]

I have a contender queue? Ok.

[Van Disaster]

I have a contender queue? Ok.

Well you probably should have the list of stuff in my post was from the old thread. There's been some confusion about who's fighting next, would be good if there was a fight list & problems with things people have submitted...

[The Optimist]

I couldn't find an autopilot unit on the Ascender to try it! I'm not sure if the no-engine-clipping rule affects the other one without pulling it apart, but given they're on seperate nodes it should be ok ( clarification please boss? ). You should probably test with the cockpit reaction wheels off though ( and make sure the AI autopilot settings match those in the OP, they'll get disabled before an actual match.

If this was an actual match the Illusionist would be champ, the D-10d has just shot itself three times in a row

Edit: wait, scrutineering fail: one chaff + one flare dispenser only. But: I tested it against my Swallow & all it did was fly big circles, it's that intended?

Here's a quick twitch stream of it, I'm not sure that's really what you had in mind...

http://www.twitch.tv/richarddastardly/v/21785879

@SpaceplaneAddict: can you update the current champ & the contender queue please?

I'll have to look into that sometime

_______________________________________

Also, the Ascender was just a thing I made based off the XP-55 ascender in WWII

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I don't know why my plane really doesn't want to engage.

- - - Updated - - -

Improved aircraft + new design for lols

Illusion V:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfxhql8gpcb3zxq/Illusion%20Mk%20V.craft?dl=0

XP-48K:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1dprxey2lhgv1dk/P-48K.craft?dl=0

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Optimist

[Van Disaster]

Well, let's do a checklist:

• FAR, BDA, Dynamic Deflection mods installed
  
• AI flight computer set up to 2000m default alt, 1410m min alt, 399m/s top speed
  
• One chaff & one flare dispenser only
  

Those are the mandatory bits.

• Weapons manager set to 360 deg view and max range - this will help starting engagements
  
• Your craft can turn at various speeds. Fly it around a bit before sticking the AI pilot on it.
  
• The AI can turn the craft - this means not setting the steering factor to minimum...
  

After that it's just making it better, that list should make sure it is good enough to start. I think the general idea was that if something spends all it's time running away it gets thrown out, so it has to at least try and stay in a fight.

[Magnavox]

Ok, new entrant: here's the Swallow F1 ( more or less the plane in the pic above ). I should have time for last minute fixes at the rate we're going, anyway

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ktpuomvyfizq3rj/Swallow%20F1.craft?dl=0

So, guesses on which company's naming scheme this one is using? ( most of mine have been themed, if nobody's picked that up... )

I'd just like to point out that submitting a plane for the challenge, then improving it after submitted, particularly when said plane is the current champion and is updated between challengers is inherently unfair.

Once you submit a design it should remain unchanged until it is defeated. Then you can change it and resubmit if you like. But changing the plane mid contest, or submitting an unfinished plane just to secure the next challenge spot and then modifying it before the contest should not be permitted.

Technically this should apply to the D-10 and it's exploding missile rails too, but too late for that. But since I lost a round because I submitted the wrong plane and let it stand, I'm holding the rest of you to the same standard.

If your plane ain't ready to fly, don't submit it. If it competes and doesn't fly the way you expect, too bad, that's the way the competition works.

[Van Disaster]

I'd just like to point out that submitting a plane for the challenge, then improving it after submitted, particularly when said plane is the current champion and is updated between challengers is inherently unfair.

This is why I didn't fiddle with the Hawk Moth despite having something like 15 more versions of it. However if some issue turns up before a plane even fights anything, then I don't see that as a problem - in your case I'd have said go ahead & use your correct plane because I'd have wanted the right thing fighting, unless it's already been in a fight.

As for challenge spots, would that even matter? ok then, say ... if you haven't fought and you want to resubmit, go to the back of the queue. That's exactly the same as withdrawing, fixing and changing the version number anyway. Makes no difference to me given I'm at the bottom of the queue already.

This isn't a clear cut thing: half the entries break up on my PC, I'm pretty sure mine is being rougher on them than anyone else's - so how are entrants expected to handle that if I was running a fight when their craft works just fine on their own PC? do I just go ahead & say "well sorry"? or do they get to fix?

Edited October 22, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Magnavox]

Ok, so for you FAR smarties out there. How do I change Zu value? I'm not sure what it governs so I don't know what I need to adjust to make it Negative.

[Van Disaster]

Ok, so for you FAR smarties out there. How do I change Zu value? I'm not sure what it governs so I don't know what I need to adjust to make it Negative.

Um, that's about as close to a definition of lift as you can get . u is forward velocity, Z is the down axis, so a negative Zu is a the size of the lift vector. If it's positive, you've stalled it because you should get *some* lift even if you don't have any wings at all.

[Magnavox]

OK, So how does a plane generate negative lift at mach 1.2 if the wings are fixed?

[Van Disaster]

OK, So how does a plane generate negative lift at mach 1.2 if the wings are fixed?

Mine do that too between 1.18M and 1.23M - since none of my aircraft have fallen out of the sky dramatically I'm goin to just put it down to FAR transonic wierdness with the parts we have. Actually everyone's do the same thing. It's possibly just a quirk of how the static derivatives panel works.

Edit: well I derped something with the Swallow so consider the F1 pulled - I took the opportunity while I was pulling it to do something fun. I don't think it's made any difference to performance at all, but it is amusing.

Here's the F2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xwj6ufhwwjm7vty/Swallow%20F2.craft?dl=0

Edited October 22, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Magnavox]

I thought about an ejectable undercarrage a while ago. But since there is no way for the AI currently to stage the aircraft, or operate action groups and having the person running the engagement do anything to your plane other than start it flying should be expressly forbidden if it isn't now. How do you plan on dropping it?

---

Very clever. Consider the ideal stolen. Edited October 22, 2015 by Magnavox

[Hodo]

OK, So how does a plane generate negative lift at mach 1.2 if the wings are fixed?

My best guess is the aircraft is no longer generating lift with the wings at that point, and staying in the air much like a rocket or a missile. The wings are no longer being used as a primary lifting source. Much like the F-104 Starfighter.

I learned a lot from an old 1960s or 70s documentary on supersonic airflow and how the air flow shock cone works.

[Van Disaster]

My best guess is the aircraft is no longer generating lift with the wings at that point, and staying in the air much like a rocket or a missile. The wings are no longer being used as a primary lifting source. Much like the F-104 Starfighter.

I learned a lot from an old 1960s or 70s documentary on supersonic airflow and how the air flow shock cone works.

I thought about that: so I did a test with just the fuselage.

Numbers don't seem to match up for it being purely ballistic. Thing is it's stable with negative lift? I may try posting in the main FAR thread - probably get a answer of absolutely nothing but worth a go.

Edit: here, after quite a lot of experimentation I managed to find a wing shape that doesn't do that. The same shape on the Swallow fuselage ( extended a bit ) doesn't work the same though.

Edit: answered - just means if you go faster at this point you'll get less overall lift. Given nothing is in danger of stalling, harmless.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Magnavox]

Now I took Wanderfound's advice initially and attached the wing "root" part to the hull, and then all the other wing parts to the root part. but I suspect that's partially the problem I've been having with my plane's fuselage breaking up. It makes moving the wings easy, but it also focuses all the stress the wings generate onto one part.

So recently I've been attaching all my wing parts to different sections of the fuselage. This makes the wings a pain to adjust and frankly they don't seem to help with the fuselage collapse problem much.

I was wondering what you all are doing.

[Van Disaster]

I build outwards from the fuselage. Can just pull our planes apart to see

[E805BzRo]

Outwards from the fuselage.

Breaking up is an issue for me, too, especially with the light plane/huge wings designs that are so successful right now.

I aim for G-tolerance of 30. Keeping Gs below that can be challenging at high speeds. I tweak Dynamic Deflection to achieve >10G turns at low speeds and <30G at high speeds.

So far I always had to use the occasional strut and/or to increase wing strength.

Ezbro

[Kagame]

Can we split into turboramjet and basic jet categories?

[gridghost]

Outwards from the fuselage.

Breaking up is an issue for me, too, especially with the light plane/huge wings designs that are so successful right now.

I aim for G-tolerance of 30. Keeping Gs below that can be challenging at high speeds. I tweak Dynamic Deflection to achieve >10G turns at low speeds and <30G at high speeds.

So far I always had to use the occasional strut and/or to increase wing strength.

Ezbro

I've never had a plane exceeding 22 or so G's in this competition, even w AoA at 13 or so degrees at 399 m/s at low'ish altitude.

Anyways, to keep planes from breaking, keep track of the dynamic pressure when building your plane and try to keep it in an even waveform, as even as possible, then tweak the wings and you will have little to no breakage.

[Van Disaster]

I've never had a plane exceeding 22 or so G's in this competition, even w AoA at 13 or so degrees at 399 m/s at low'ish altitude.

Anyways, to keep planes from breaking, keep track of the dynamic pressure when building your plane and try to keep it in an even waveform, as even as possible, then tweak the wings and you will have little to no breakage.

Use DD carefully, don't just try doing it with wing strength - that's probably not going to cut it at 60kPa if you want decent authority slower.

Watching the D-10 shoot itself over and over is more and more comical doesn't help me get a decent fight though!

I guess I'll put a queue together at the top of post 3 just so we know who's meant to be fighting & who's stuck with issues.

Edit: argh this AI. I just watched it manoever onto the opponent's tail at ~600m, and then make no attempt at slowing down until it'd flown straight past.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Van Disaster

[E805BzRo]

I've never had a plane exceeding 22 or so G's in this competition, even w AoA at 13 or so degrees at 399 m/s at low'ish altitude.

Anyways, to keep planes from breaking, keep track of the dynamic pressure when building your plane and try to keep it in an even waveform, as even as possible, then tweak the wings and you will have little to no breakage.

3 examples for planes of mine pulling 30G:

http://i.imgur.com/MyfkpHw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Uz8Gyoe.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3BLlYSr.jpg

At some point I will submit one of them... but with the K-22 in mind, which was super-stable on my installation but kept breaking up on VanDisaster's, I am still hesitant.

Cheers,

Ezbro

[Van Disaster]

Send me a test plane, I'll see how it works.

[E805BzRo]

Send me a test plane, I'll see how it works.

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