Density of Kerbium

[Tanner Rawlings]

One of the biggest problems with the kerbol system is the high densities of the planets (Kerbin with 58 g/cm^3 and Eve with 85 g/cm^3, ill explain eve later), now osmium is the element with the highest confirmed density of 22.59 g/cm^3 (Hassium has a predicted density of 40.7 g/cm^3), now even if Hassium existed in high quantities with the predicted density it would not be enough, therefor, as mentioned by a guy by the name of Anton Petrov in one of his videos (link below), the densities of most of the planets would require a very dense element, (proposed name Kerbium).

So, where do we begin? well first i found that an element is needed with a density greater than 58 g/cm^3 (i assumed greater than 60 to allow for oxygen, silicon, iron, aluminium ect. for soils of planets), I decided to start with the group Osmium is in, i punched the data into a table on my trusty ti-89 Titanium like so: {(1,7.874),(2,12.37),(3,22.61),(4,40.7)} (X is how far down the group an element is). I found that an element's density increased exponentially down the group, so for this group and the surrounding groups i plotted a graph based on the data and got the values for the theoretical elements in period 8.

What i found was that there was 3 possible elements that could be the elusive Kerbium (Link below, Green is prime candidate while yellow are possible alternatives), the prime candidate, which has the Systematic Element Name of Unhexnilium, would, according to my calculations, have a Density of 68.986, which would allow plenty of room for other elements on all of the planets.

Now to deal with Eve, while Kerbium explains the high densities for most of the elements, it can not explain it for Eve's high density, so there could possibly be another element which would require a density of at least 88 g/cm^3 (possibly purple) maybe called Evenium (eve-knee-um) to explain for the density of eve.

Thats all the work ive been able to do in the last 24 hours with my high school chemistry skills and algebra, i mainly did this out of boredom so im going to take a break for a few days and maybe work on Evenium, feel free to comment what you think or any ideas you may have. Also i decided to put this here as it doesnt seem to really be about game play so i wouldn't feel right putting it in general discussion, mods can do with as they please, mostly...

Table for Kerbium:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KLo9eGcJTDlL97TGdyHX0m3KUDhriNw6s-wModip8y4/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

Video:

Edited October 26, 2015 by Tanner Rawlings

[problemecium]

I've mentioned in a few places now that it could also be degenerate matter, which has been known to have densities exceeding 10,000 g/cm³. Even a comparatively small fraction of this mixed into the planets' interiors could make them sufficiently dense.

[fredinno]

One of the biggest problems with the kerbol system is the high densities of the planets (Kerbin with 58 g/cm^3 and Eve with 85 g/cm^3, ill explain eve later), now osmium is the element with the highest confirmed density of 22.59 g/cm^3 (Hassium has a predicted density of 40.7 g/cm^3), now even if Hassium existed in high quantities with the predicted density it would not be enough, therefor, as mentioned by a guy by the name of Anton Petrov in one of his videos (link below), the densities of most of the planets would require a very dense element, (proposed name Kerbium).

So, where do we begin? well first i found that an element is needed with a density greater than 58 g/cm^3 (i assumed greater than 60 to allow for oxygen, silicon, iron, aluminium ect. for soils of planets), I decided to start with the group Osmium is in, i punched the data into a table on my trusty ti-89 Titanium like so: {(1,7.874),(2,12.37),(3,22.61),(4,40.7)} (X is how far down the group an element is). I found that an element's density increased exponentially down the group, so for this group and the surrounding groups i plotted a graph based on the data and got the values for the theoretical elements in period 8.

What i found was that there was 3 possible elements that could be the elusive Kerbium (Link below, Green is prime candidate while yellow are possible alternatives), the prime candidate, which has the Systematic Element Name of Unhexnilium, would, according to my calculations, have a Density of 68.986, which would allow plenty of room for other elements on all of the planets.

Now to deal with Eve, while Kerbium explains the high densities for most of the elements, it can not explain it for Eve's high density, so there could possibly be another element which would require a density of at least 88 g/cm^3 (possibly purple) maybe called Evenium (eve-knee-um) to explain for the density of eve.

Thats all the work ive been able to do in the last 24 hours with my high school chemistry skills and algebra, i mainly did this out of boredom so im going to take a break for a few days and maybe work on Evenium, feel free to comment what you think or any ideas you may have. Also i decided to put this here as it doesnt seem to really be about game play so i wouldn't feel right putting it in general discussion, mods can do with as they please, mostly...

Table for Kerbium:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KLo9eGcJTDlL97TGdyHX0m3KUDhriNw6s-wModip8y4/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

Video:

Well, it could work- assuming the "2nd island of stability" keeps Kerbium stable enough to exist on planetary timescales...

[YNM]

Would be interesting to see such massive atoms being made just in supernovas !

[Endersmens]

I propose that Eve is composed of "Eveum" or "Evium" or "Eveium" or something.

[Findthepin1]

Eve might be made mostly of kerbium compressed by the 1.7 g and the mass of the planet (this is why Earth is denser than Mercury as a whole). I don't know if that would be enough to account for the high density of Eve.

[p1t1o]

I've mentioned in a few places now that it could also be degenerate matter, which has been known to have densities exceeding 10,000 g/cm³. Even a comparatively small fraction of this mixed into the planets' interiors could make them sufficiently dense.

Well if we're being serious, stupendous pressure is required to maintain degenerate matter, orders of magnitude higher than that you find inside planets.

To illustrate:

Pressure at the centre of the Earth: ~3.5Matm

Composition: Iron @ ~ 12-13g/cm3 (Iron at standard temperature and pressure is ~ 8g/cm3)

Pressure at the centre of Jupiter: ~50-100Matm

Composition: metallic hydrogen at ~1.3g/cm3

Pressure at the centre of the sun: ~ 2.5Gatm

Temperature is too hot for degenerate matter to form, but near the end of its life, when it becomes a white dwarf, some degenerate matter may be formed at the core.

So even with Eve, we are way out of the degeneracy ballpark.

...unless you invoke some handwavey sci-fi effect, but then you may as well just invent "element X" with the appropriate density.

It seems the planets in the Kerbol system are in an uncomfortable zone, too dense for normal matter, not dense enough for more exotic forms. Any matter coaxed into a density of 60-80 g/cm3 will likely become normal matter again, very quickly and very violently (even at the centre of Eve).

[cicatrix]

Well, it could work- assuming the "2nd island of stability" keeps Kerbium stable enough to exist on planetary timescales...

Provided it's not radioactive which seems hardly likely.

[justidutch]

Perhaps the Star Trekkian 'Red Matter' is at work here? Which, by the way, is made up of decalithium according to several highly reputable Star Trek resources.

[peadar1987]

Would be interesting to see such massive atoms being made just in supernovas !

They would obviously be the most Kerbal of supernovas!

[Fengist]

Funny I found this thread today. I just happened to be working on some buoyancy code and was trying to guesstimate what the density of the liquids are on Kerbin, Eve and Laythe. I too was just as confounded about the planet's densities. My question is though, since the density of the core of our Sun is somewhere between 33,000 and 160,000... and the density of Earth's core is somewhere around 13,000... why have these planets not ignited into a fusion fireball???

[peadar1987]

Funny I found this thread today. I just happened to be working on some buoyancy code and was trying to guesstimate what the density of the liquids are on Kerbin, Eve and Laythe. I too was just as confounded about the planet's densities. My question is though, since the density of the core of our Sun is somewhere between 33,000 and 160,000... and the density of Earth's core is somewhere around 13,000... why have these planets not ignited into a fusion fireball???

Because not everything is as easy to fuse as hydrogen. (Also, having the KSC instantly burst into flames and killing all the Kerbals every time you started a game, because it was on the surface of a star, wouldn't make for particularly compelling gameplay)

[GeneralVeers]

I've mentioned in a few places now that it could also be degenerate matter, which has been known to have densities exceeding 10,000 g/cm³. Even a comparatively small fraction of this mixed into the planets' interiors could make them sufficiently dense.

I don't think Kerbin is massive enough for that to work; unless it's under extreme pressure due to gravity, the matter would stop being degenerate. And Kerbin (which we can assume to be the same mass as Earth because its gravity is the same as Earth) is nowhere near massive enough.

I don't know what happens to electron-degenerate matter at Earth-normal temperature and pressure, but I do know that neutron-degenerate matter would be very, very bad. Free neutrons (i.e. outside of an atomic nucleus) are extremely unstable, with an average lifetime of fifteen minutes, and the heat produced by the decay of large numbers of unstable neutrons would cause a Kerbin-shattering kaboom. Neutron stars are only stable because the extreme pressure exerted by gravity keeps the neutrons stable; Kerbin is, again, nowhere near massive enough.

[fredinno]

Would be interesting to see such massive atoms being made just in supernovas !

I'm pretty sure such massive atoms, not even supernovas can make....

- - - Updated - - -

Provided it's not radioactive which seems hardly likely.

No, but elements like Uranium and Thorium are radioactive, and extist in planets.

And no, it is probably unlikely- on the other hand, we still don't know how far the 1st island of stability stabilzes elements, due to the lack of research on the very last elements of the periodic table, and the fact that element 120, where the (1st) island of stability centers at. The 2nd island centers at about Z= 160-170, if my memory is serving me correctly.

[ZetaX]

And Kerbin (which we can assume to be the same mass as Earth because its gravity is the same as Earth)

That's not how it works. Surface gravity is proportional to M/r², M being the planet's mass and r being it's radius. As Kerbin is smaller than Earth, you need less mass for the same surface acceleration due to gravity.

Now assuming uniform density d one easily sees that mass is proportional to d·r³, thus for surface gravity is proportional to d·r. As Kerbin is 1/10-th the radius of Earth we need 10 times the density to again get the same surface gravity.

- - - Updated - - -

No, but elements like Uranium and Thorium are radioactive, and extist in planets.

Don't forget about Bismuth

[fredinno]

That's not how it works. Surface gravity is proportional to M/r², M being the planet's mass and r being it's radius. As Kerbin is smaller than Earth, you need less mass for the same surface acceleration due to gravity.

Now assuming uniform density d one easily sees that mass is proportional to d·r³, thus for surface gravity is proportional to d·r. As Kerbin is 1/10-th the radius of Earth we need 10 times the density to again get the same surface gravity.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't forget about Bismuth

Kerbium will almost certainly not be that stable.

[ChrisSpace]

Provided it's not radioactive which seems hardly likely.

Wouldn't hundreds of kilometers of solid rock make a good shield against said radiation?

[Tanner Rawlings]

Wouldn't hundreds of kilometers of solid rock make a good shield against said radiation?

radiation is not the problem, when radioactive isotopes decay they break down into lighter (less dense) elements/isotopes thus kerbin and all the other planets would begin to expand

[ZetaX]

radiation is not the problem, when radioactive isotopes decay they break down into lighter (less dense) elements/isotopes thus kerbin and all the other planets would begin to expand

And heat up.

[cantab]

In the real world I doubt higher elements are stable over geological timescales. If they were surely they would be made naturally and observed.

As far as KSP goes, I don't find the idea of a core of super-heavy conventional elements appealing. Such elements, even if stable and naturally formed, ought to be rare.

I would suggest that the gravitational constant G is different in the Kerbal universe, but that requires that the in-game stated masses be ignored and I believe the game's code uses the IRL value for G.

That leaves the hypothesis of an exotic form of highly dense matter in the planetary cores. Such matter could plausibly be common in the Kerbol system. The big problem I have is what are candidates for something stable, slow moving, and that won't affect the regular matter around it? Degenerate matter isn't stable unless under extreme pressure. I'm not sure dark matter would clump compactly enough, given it would fly straight through the forming planet and out the other side. And wouldn't a black hole just slowly consume the planet around it?

[Jovus]

Well if we're being serious, stupendous pressure is required to maintain degenerate matter, orders of magnitude higher than that you find inside planets.

To illustrate:

Pressure at the centre of the Earth: ~3.5Matm

Composition: Iron @ ~ 12-13g/cm3 (Iron at standard temperature and pressure is ~ 8g/cm3)

Pressure at the centre of Jupiter: ~50-100Matm

Composition: metallic hydrogen at ~1.3g/cm3

Pressure at the centre of the sun: ~ 2.5Gatm

Temperature is too hot for degenerate matter to form, but near the end of its life, when it becomes a white dwarf, some degenerate matter may be formed at the core.

So even with Eve, we are way out of the degeneracy ballpark.

...unless you invoke some handwavey sci-fi effect, but then you may as well just invent "element X" with the appropriate density.

It seems the planets in the Kerbol system are in an uncomfortable zone, too dense for normal matter, not dense enough for more exotic forms. Any matter coaxed into a density of 60-80 g/cm3 will likely become normal matter again, very quickly and very violently (even at the centre of Eve).

But that's hardly an issue, really. Given the other characteristics of the Kerbol system (like orbital arrangements that are stable when they shouldn't be, see

), we must 'invoke some handwavey sci-fi effect'. Therefore I propose that the Ancients, aka the Primordial Harvesters, constructed the Kerbol system, partially out of degenerate matter (because neutronium's easy to come by when you're Kardashev III) stabilized through some method we don't understand yet. Similarly, they either have some active stabilization method for the orbits of the celestial bodies, or have manipulated local space itself to have exotic characteristics. I'm fond of this latter explanation, because it explains why vessels also don't experience typical perturbations, along with how Kerbals can easily exceed the speed of light and yet never truly escape the system itself.

[GeneralVeers]

Kerbium will almost certainly not be that stable.

Bottom line: a core of degenerate matter would probably be really bad for the planet......

[technoDaleks]

Bravo!

I've always been a fan of trying to apply some level of "realism" to KSP. To each their own . I took a look at planetary composition back a bit for roleplaying / story purposes, but gave up part way through from the effort involved. A new element would be one way to address the densities issues. The angle I looked at it from was that the KSP Universe had similar, but different, scaling for materials and elements for lack of a better word.

For an example, let's look at Kerbin. Density is 58.48 g/cm³. Earth is at 5.514 g/cm³. So an order of magnitude difference and some change. For this thought experiment, we can assume that materials are roughly 10x denser in the KSP Universe if we fix Kerbin's composition (silicate crust and mantle, iron metal core) to Earth's.

Jumping to our nearest neighbor, Mun / Moon, we have 29.13 g/cm³ to 3.3464 g/cm³. Again, close but not quite, but like Kerbin to Earth the composition is probably close.

Things start to break down a little when we go to Eve / Venus [85.22 g/cm³ to 5.243 g/cm³]. As noted, this would indicate the Eve in KSP would consist of heavier elements, perhaps larger proportion of the core is metal?.

Duna / Mars [32.90 g/cm³ to 3.9335 g/cm³] isn't as far off as above. Perhaps Duna consists of more silicates and frozen volatiles, or a 'dirtier' iron or smaller core?

Minmus loops things up alot though (no, I will not buy the mint ice cream argument. I said "realism" darnit!!)

[cantab]

That the densities are about ten times reality is a natural consequence of the planetary radii being about a tenth of reality, and the equation for surface gravity g = 4/3 * pi * G * density * radius .

I think I've come round to dark matter cores as the least bad option. It's a bit handwavey to see how they'd form, but once formed they should be stable.

Edited October 30, 2015 by cantab

[magnemoe]

Bottom line: a core of degenerate matter would probably be really bad for the planet......

Someone had an interview with the guy who made earth in Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

His explanation was an small black hole surrounded by an sphere of scrit hullmetal or pehaps an stasis field, the later excludes some options.

This will give you an huge mass in the center, now just add matter on top to get an planet.

For an sun its two options, have an small sphere around the black hole and the pressure in center will be high enough for fusion, or leave some small openings where matter was injected into the hole for energy. Later might also do for planetary heat, dumping lot of uranium fist might also do the tricks.

You only need black holes smaller than planets and an material who survive the core of the sun and its pressure.