How to fly to another planets effective without mechjeb?

[Polnoch]

I have a question: How to fly to another planets effective without mechjeb?

I'm new KSP user, I started career, and:

1) I arrived to Dune and Ike with non-managed crafts. And it was non-effective (I used the gravity maneuver with Mun to getting Kerbol satellite status)

2) I visited and return by Kerbonautes Mun and Minmus.

3) I have orbit station and can docking (I used It for refuel crafts between missions to new biomes on Mun and Minmus)

And.. I want a more hardcore!

Now I use this modes:

IFILS, KAS, KerbalEngineer, KIS, PlanetaryBaseInc, RCSBuildAid(i installed it, but actually didn't try in this moment), StageRecovery (but I think about to remove It, and try to use kos scripts for saving stages), Kerbal Alarm Clock.

And, I have a problem! I don't understand, how I can arrive to another planets with fuel-effective strategy without mechjeb and another chit ways

The biggest part of this tools does not support 1.0.4

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Calculation_tools

So, I don't understand, how I can use ksp.olex.biz if it support 1.0.4. Is any good tutorial for new game versions?

[GeneralVeers]

Step 1: practice getting from Kerbin to Mun and Minmus without Mechjeb.

Step 2: exit Kerbin's gravity and go into solar orbit.

Step 3: use the rules from step 1, except that you start in solar orbit instead of Kerbin orbit. The rules are pretty much the same.

[DeMatt]

Every planet's orbit, and their "Sphere of Influence", has been constant since about version 0.19. So the Olex planner and the Alexmoon planner have not needed to be updated since then.

Feel free to use them both. Note that they will tend to produce slightly different results due to different mathematical assumptions - use a maneuver node to plot your own maneuver.

[magnemoe]

Step 1: practice getting from Kerbin to Mun and Minmus without Mechjeb.

Step 2: exit Kerbin's gravity and go into solar orbit.

Step 3: use the rules from step 1, except that you start in solar orbit instead of Kerbin orbit. The rules are pretty much the same.

Going to solar orbit first is very inefficient, yes I did that in the start myself.

Kerbal alarm clock also shows the times its efficient to launch to other planets.

Set the alarm to an day before, this can be done from another craft you just need the date.

Launch your ship and create an node For Duna and other planets outward you want to burn in Kerbins direction of movement, for Eve and inward the opposite.

Tweak node until you get an good intercept. The hard part if you need an plane change burn, then you have to set this up and then tweak the first node but this is hardly needed for duna.

[maceemiller]

The protractor mod is very good. I use this from time to time. Otherwise I use http://ksp.olex.biz which works fine for me using 1.0.4

Edited November 3, 2015 by maceemiller

[Warzouz]

Well, this is not that hard. I use Mechjeb, but not for encounter calculation. I even find that MJ doesn't do a good job at it. When I went to Moho, MJ calculated a horrible encounter which cost a LOT of fuel on arrival. I reloaded and did it myself, it was quite well in the charts.

How I do it :

- Use KAC / Alexmoon to find a launch window to target

- Launch to LKO 1 week before (Kerbal time) to have time to set a correct encounter and because KAC is not very precise.

- Set a node and tweak it using Precise Node or MJ Node Editor

- Search for encounter around the window

- If inclination, set a second node to get a real encounter. It doesn't have to be a perfect encounter, it's just to check your first node will give you an encounter.

Features I use a lot in MJ

- Node editing (that should be stock) to fine tweak nodes. Very usefull to go to Moho

- Node execution : very useful when you have a lots of missions flying at the same time.

- Rendez-vous : because I'm lame at it...

- Data display (even I prefer KER, I use both)

[Kaezan]

If you want to do it without MJ you must practice a lot and you can do that in a sandbox game.

When you're calculating the Dv you need, add another 500 m/s and launch it.

After 5-10 attempts you will start understanding the mechanics for yourself and you'll make less mistakes

Tools like MJ, KER, RCSbuildAid and so on, affect your learning curve making you skip important steps in construction and navigation.

It took me 2 weeks to learn how to dock 2 vessels in orbit but after that i could do it by heart.

That even helped me in learning how to control a kerbal in EVA cause the basics are the same.

Again, in KSP practice is the only requirement

[magnemoe]

Well, this is not that hard. I use Mechjeb, but not for encounter calculation. I even find that MJ doesn't do a good job at it. When I went to Moho, MJ calculated a horrible encounter which cost a LOT of fuel on arrival. I reloaded and did it myself, it was quite well in the charts.

How I do it :

- Use KAC / Alexmoon to find a launch window to target

- Launch to LKO 1 week before (Kerbal time) to have time to set a correct encounter and because KAC is not very precise.

- Set a node and tweak it using Precise Node or MJ Node Editor

- Search for encounter around the window

- If inclination, set a second node to get a real encounter. It doesn't have to be a perfect encounter, it's just to check your first node will give you an encounter.

Features I use a lot in MJ

- Node editing (that should be stock) to fine tweak nodes. Very usefull to go to Moho

- Node execution : very useful when you have a lots of missions flying at the same time.

- Rendez-vous : because I'm lame at it...

- Data display (even I prefer KER, I use both)

I find the Rendez-vous function in mechjeb pretty stupid, so I always do this manual, in LKO it depend on how long time you want to spend and the dV budget.

My two favorites are fine tune closest approach to target, this is hard to do so accurate manually if you don't do multiple burns, and the advanced transfer to other planets.

[Speadge]

I find the Rendez-vous function in mechjeb pretty stupid, so I always do this manual, in LKO it depend on how long time you want to spend and the dV budget.

My two favorites are fine tune closest approach to target, this is hard to do so accurate manually if you don't do multiple burns, and the advanced transfer to other planets.

Rendezvous is not for interplanetary transfers :-/

The Hohman-Transfer is what you want

[Polnoch]

Thanks all for answers!

Sorry for my bad English. Probably I wrote something wrong. And it is all my fault!

Step 1: practice getting from Kerbin to Mun and Minmus without Mechjeb.

Step 2: exit Kerbin's gravity and go into solar orbit.

Step 3: use the rules from step 1, except that you start in solar orbit instead of Kerbin orbit. The rules are pretty much the same.

But I achieved this! I sended un-management vessels (without Kerbanauts) to Eve and Duna, and get science data from Eve's and Duna's orbit. I used the gravity maneuver with Mun to save some fuel, but it was very no effective. And send to this way Kerbols very dangerous for their lives, because I can't calculate amount of fuel. Also, I never back to home from Duna and Eve, but I have more amount of landing to Mun and Minmas and return Kerbals to Kerbin (now I usually return theirs to my Kerbin's orbit station, for collecting science data, and refuel Vessel)

Going to solar orbit first is very inefficient, yes I did that in the start myself.

I achieved this (please read below)

If you want to do it without MJ you must practice a lot and you can do that in a sandbox game.

As I wrote, my English is not fine I never used MJ in my career(and in sandbox too). I only seen video in youtube with Mejheb helping. All of my achievements was without it.

When you're calculating the Dv you need, add another 500 m/s and launch it.

But, I don't understand, how I can calculate it. My un-management vessels arrived to Eve and Duna with my intuitive estimation

Tools like MJ, KER, RCSbuildAid and so on, affect your learning curve making you skip important steps in construction and navigation.

Yes, I know, thank you. I used KER and want to start use RCSbuildAid in hangar, when I build new vessels.

Kerbal alarm clock also shows the times its efficient to launch to other planets. Kerbal alarm clock also shows the times its efficient to launch to other planets.

Set the alarm to an day before, this can be done from another craft you just need the date.

Yes, I know, thank you. I used it during last real month It really very useful, and can support you to not forget about maneuvers and encounters for all your vessels.

Launch your ship and create an node For Duna and other planets outward you want to burn in Kerbins direction of movement, for Eve and inward the opposite.

It's new information for me! Could you please tell more?

Every planet's orbit, and their "Sphere of Influence", has been constant since about version 0.19. So the Olex planner and the Alexmoon planner have not needed to be updated since then.

Feel free to use them both. Note that they will tend to produce slightly different results due to different mathematical assumptions - use a maneuver node to plot your own maneuver.

Oh! Thank you very much! But:

1) I do not understand how can I setting up Ejection angle, calculated by Olex planner.

2) Also I do not understand, How I can understand moment of phase angle: put protractor (I mean real, offline device) to my screen?

The protractor mod is very good. I use this from time to time. Otherwise I use http://ksp.olex.biz which works fine for me using 1.0.4

Yes, thank you, I read about it, and try to install it. Is it worked on 1.0.4, Linux, x86_64 platform?

How I do it :

- Use KAC / Alexmoon to find a launch window to target

Thank you, It's new for me. Could you please tell more?

- Set a node and tweak it using Precise Node or MJ Node Editor

Is any different ways?

Rendezvous is not for interplanetary transfers :-/

The Hohman-Transfer is what you want

Yes, I want to use Hohman-transfers (for save fuel). And I never do it. But some times, I think, we need rendezvous, because amount of life support (if you use mods with life support supplies) is limited. And calculation a good, fuel-save rendezvous is also interesting task.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Polnoch
bad copy-paste

[Warzouz]

Here are some links :

Calculating windows

- Web : http://ksp.olex.biz/

- KAC mod : http://kerbal.curseforge.com/projects/kerbal-alarm-clock?gameCategorySlug=ksp-mods&projectID=220289

Calculating window and transfert

- Web : http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/

- Window planner mod : http://kerbal.curseforge.com/projects/transfer-window-planner?gameCategorySlug=ksp-mods&projectID=224116

As for tweaking node

- Precise node : http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/47863-1-0-2-Precise-Node-1-1-3-Precisely-edit-your-maneuver-nodes

- MechJeb Node editor feature.

To get a nice encounter, I set grossly the node in the window and try to get an encounter as near as possible to the opposite side of the sun. This works usually well.

Node edition tools also allow to shift time. If I fail to get an encounter, I add time to get to the next orbit, or few orbits. Shifting time that way is a very efficient way to reduce dV consumption. You can shift the node location until the PE is lower / AP is higher, THEN reduce prograde or retrograde burn to get desired PE/AP. That way you don't burn too much. As a result, I never care about phase angle, I simply get it right just by looking at the projected orbit. This is very easy when there is no inclination of the target body.

But when there is, the best way to deal with it is to add another node at AN/DN before executing the first burn. Then you have to tweak both nodes to get a nice encounter. Again, probably not the most time efficient, but the easiest way I could find.

After the first burn, I reset the inclination burn or do a correction burn to get the nice PE in target SOI. I did few trips to Moho that way, which is supposed to be the hardest navigation.

I use those nodes in Kerbal Alarm Clock to be warned of incoming manoeuvres, so I can do other things in between. I usually have at least 2 or 3 missions at the same time.

[SalehRam]

It's new information for me! Could you please tell more?

The idea is, when you want to transfer to a planet/moon that has a higher orbit than the source planet/moon, then your prograde burn to transfer to your destination should be in the same direction and the source planet/moon motion in its orbit.

Example: transfer from Kerbin to Duna: you have to burn prograde while in LKO in the same direction as Kerbin's orbit around the Sun. - Check the image below

When you want to transfer to a planet/moon that has a lower orbit than the source planet/moon you are orbiting, then you prograde burn to transfer should be in the opposite direction as the source planet/moon motion in its orbit.

Example: Transfer from Kerbin to Eve: you have to make your prograde burn to transfer to the opposite way of Kerbin's orbit around the Sun... - Check the image below

These images taken from http://ksp.olex.biz/

Edited November 3, 2015 by SalehRam

[Kaezan]

The idea is, when you want to transfer to a planet/moon that has a higher orbit than the source planet/moon, then your prograde burn to transfer to your destination should be in the same direction and the source planet/moon motion in its orbit.

Example: transfer from Kerbin to Duna: you have to burn prograde while in LKO in the same direction as Kerbin's orbit around the Sun. - Check the image below

http://i.imgur.com/ZtEKpIS.png

When you want to transfer to a planet/moon that has a lower orbit than the source planet/moon you are orbiting, then you prograde burn to transfer should be in the opposite direction as the source planet/moon motion in its orbit.

Example: Transfer from Kerbin to Eve: you have to make your prograde burn to transfer to the opposite way of Kerbin's orbit around the Sun... - Check the image below

http://i.imgur.com/TcOImct.png

These images taken from http://ksp.olex.biz/

That is the same as orbits around kerbin. higher orbit - burn prograde, lower orbit - burn retrograde

in kerbin's SOI, kerbin is the reference

in planet transfers, the sun is the reference.

thats why it's called orbital mechanics, cause you use the same concepts as long as you are in a defined orbit.

[Polnoch]

Here are some links :

Calculating windows

- Web : http://ksp.olex.biz/

Calculating window and transfert

- Web : http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/

- Window planner mod : http://kerbal.curseforge.com/projects/transfer-window-planner?gameCategorySlug=ksp-mods&projectID=224116

As for tweaking node

- Precise node : http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/47863-1-0-2-Precise-Node-1-1-3-Precisely-edit-your-maneuver-nodes

I will try these modes, and will write here my results.

- KAC mod : http://kerbal.curseforge.com/projects/kerbal-alarm-clock?gameCategorySlug=ksp-mods&projectID=220289

As I wrote, I have it installed.

SalehRam, Kaezan, thanks for explanations;

Warzouz thank you for mods and explanations too..

#13Kaezan

[BoilingOil]

I would definitely uninstall/remove all those mods you added, and then prove that you can do all that you say you've achieved. I think you might be surprised at how even the mere presence of mods can change the experience, even if you think you're not actively using them.

Because if you're a new player, I cannot imagine that you've built space stations and went to any other places than the Mun already. And in Career mode??? I'm a new player too, and I haven't even landed a ship on the Mun in Sandbox without crashing yet.

I'm sorry if this post offends you. That is not what I'm trying to do here, believe me. It's just not that easy to master this game.

[magnemoe]

One way of practicing interplanetary burns is to go from Mun to Minmus and back. Same mechanic but the time and dV cost if far lower.

its also an useful skill so you can reuse satellites and bases and for kerbal leveling.

- - - Updated - - -

Rendezvous is not for interplanetary transfers :-/

The Hohman-Transfer is what you want

I know I was thinking of the mechjeb Rendezvous autopilot for rendezvous of two ship in the same orbit. If orbit is pretty different say 80 and 300 you would use Hohman here too the same way as you do for Mun, make an node with an suitable burn, then move it around orbit until you get intercept and tweak.

Then doing rendezvous I prefer coming in front of target then raise Ap so my orbit take longer time. If distance is long or you have an low fuel budget you want to do multiple orbits, add new node just after the intercept the target position moves towards you position at the next orbit. if it jump a bit ahead of you you lower Ap so you match, if not use the + to wait one orbit.

After doing that burn I tend to be 1-3 km from target at intercept so I let mechjeb fine adjust distance and match velocity.

[RocketPropelledGiraffe]

But, I don't understand, how I can calculate it. My un-management vessels arrived to Eve and Duna with my intuitive estimation

No need to calculate yourself, just look up the requirement on a Delta-v map:

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Cheat_sheet

The way it works is you simply add all the values along the line between your starting point (Kerbin, most of the time) and your destination. Generously add a couple hundred as margin of error for inefficient (i.e. Kerbal-style) maneuvers and you will get there.

For a return trip, you have to take most of the values twice, obviously.

[Just Jim]

Simple answer, I just kept building bigger and bigger and eventually ended up with this. She's big enough to get to any planet, and can fully refuel herself on any available moon or non-atmosphere planet, like Eeloo or Dres.

I used no mod's, except for two Asteroid-day parts, I just kept experimenting with bigger and bigger designs until I found one I was happy with.

[Polnoch]

I would definitely uninstall/remove all those mods you added

Why?

1) TacLifeSupport give more hardcore: gaming with limiting O₂ and food up game for more difficult level. It's provide more realistic game, and does not help anymore.

2) PlanetaryBase provide more constructions for ground bases. I think it also doesn't help

3) I use WernherChecker and Kerbal Alarm Clock only because my brain is not computer, and my memory is not ideal: I have 24 flights now, and it is impossible for my mind do not forgot about all maneuvers, all rendezvous, etc. If anybody can, he/she is terminator, I think But I can't.

4) I used StageRecovery, becouse we have a problem with game engine: game doesn't fully calculate not-focused vessels. In career mod you want to save more money, and want to save your old stages, but it is impossible! If you attach big amount of parachutes to your craft, it will broken same if you attach nothing. But, if you attach manage module for some of stages, after you get a orbit with your vessel, you can switch on and try to save your old stages (if it under atmosphere). StageRecovery only provide you saving old stages inside atmosphere, and don't require management module to under-atmosphere stages for save they. I think, it's not a cheat.

5) KAS and KIS provide you a great functional to re-building anything (stations, vessels, ground bases..) in space. I think, it must be in vanilla game, it's not cheat!

6) RCSBuildAid only provide you same functional, like "center of mass", "center of trust", "center of lift" in base game, but only for RCS. I think, it must be in vanilla game.

7) Probably ConnectedLivingSpace is cheat, but It is very bored to moved kerbals from one module to another in my Space Station. Also I want to find plugin(for 1.4 KSP), not SheepManifest(I think it is cheat plugin) also provide moving science. This procedire, I think, also bored. I need to to transfer scientific data from my Mun/Minmus craft to space station, and, in next step, to craft can landed on Kerbin.

8) Also Kerbal Engeneer is some cheat, but I don't know another way to understand delta of speed of all stages. If anybody know, please tell me.

And, please tell, how are you can make Hohman-Transfers without any external tools.

Because if you're a new player, I cannot imagine that you've built space stations and went to any other places than the Mun already. And in Career mode??? I'm a new player too, and I haven't even landed a ship on the Mun in Sandbox without crashing yet.

Yes, I'm new user, but probably less new then you - I gaming in KSP during one month. Landing on Mun? Yes, it is interesting task, my first vessel to Mun (without kerbals, un-management) locate, in my Career on it's left side on mun ground But it works

Try to attach legs as far as possible from each other.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Polnoch

[BoilingOil]

And, please tell, how are you can make Hohman-Transfers without any external tools.

If you mean how do I get from a Kerbin orbit to a Mun orbit? That is possible without ANY mods at all:

Click on any point in your current orbit, and select "Add Maneuver", then pull the little prograde and retrograde handles on the new icon that appears, and move the icon around your orbit, until the far side of the intended orbit (the new dotted lines) intersects with the Mun's orbit at the right place (some 45 to 60 degrees from where the Mun is now - you'll know it when you see a projection of the Mun inside your new trajectory). Then click a point beyond the maneuver and select "Warp to next maneuver". Once there, burn prograde until your new trajectory is almost the same as the dotted line. This will bring you to the Mun, where you need to burn retrograde to make your orbit circular. Easy-peasy.

This is what I learned from playing the tutorials! The HARD part is to get there with enough resources to LAND the sucker!

Really, if you haven't ever tried this without mods telling you what to do, then you haven't really achieved ANYTHING. THAT is why I tell you to get rid of all that extra stuff.

[Polnoch]

If you mean how do I get from a Kerbin orbit to a Mun orbit?

No, I mean fuel-save hohman trasfer burn. This is fastest and the best effective trajectory between Kerbols (not Kerbin!) satellites - another planets. For example, fly from Kerbin to Duna.

That is possible without ANY mods at all:

Of course, fly to the Mun or Minmus doesn't require any Modes. Also, not fuel effective fly to another planet also doesn't need modes.

Easy-peasy.

Yes, it is very easy.

The HARD part is to get there with enough resources to LAND the sucker!

Did you read my message about legs?

[stemi]

Simple answer, I just kept building bigger and bigger and eventually ended up with this. She's big enough to get to any planet, and can fully refuel herself on any available moon or non-atmosphere planet, like Eeloo or Dres.

I used no mod's, except for two Asteroid-day parts, I just kept experimenting with bigger and bigger designs until I found one I was happy with.

http://i.imgur.com/ojrJYxO.jpg

Are you landing with this on other planet to refuel or do you have some kind of attached lander/miner/processor on it?

[BoilingOil]

No, I mean fuel-save hohman trasfer burn. This is fastest and the best effective trajectory between Kerbols (not Kerbin!) satellites - another planets. For example, fly from Kerbin to Duna.

Of course, fly to the Mun or Minmus doesn't require any Modes. Also, not fuel effective fly to another planet also doesn't need modes.

Yes, it is very easy.

Did you read my message about legs?

First off, you should not apologise for your English. We understand you just fine.

But did you read my message about enough resources? Legs are USELESS, if you fall down at 300 m/s and have no fuel to slow down! Even with a thousand legs, you are going to be a puddle!

Also, in your previous post, you mentioned a mod that limits your Oxygen supply - to make it more realistic -, but you also say that your ships are "unmanaged", and you explain that as "there are no Kerbals onboard". But if there are no Kerbals, what does it matter if you have less oxygen? It doesn't make it easier, but it doesn't make it harder, either!

What you're doing is the same as getting in a car, telling the autopilot to bring you home, and then saying that you've driven home all by yourself, unmanaged! Yes, it's true, you've driven home. And assuming that you were the only person in the car, you were indeed all by yourself. But you've still CHEATED, because the autopilot did it all for you! The fact that you got home, doesn't necessary mean that you can drive!

Really, just TRY to play the game the hard way first. No mods. As long as you haven't done that, you don't know ANYTHING!

But I understand that you do not WANT to believe me. I think that you're afraid of failure. You want to win without risk of losing. But my dear, if there is nothing to lose, then you aren't really winning anything at all. You're just lying to yourself!

Anyway, I'm not going to try and convince you any further, because we don't want to get mad at each other, do we?

If you like a challenge, try to do it my way. And if not, then not. It's your own choice.

Good luck, Polnoch!

[radonek]

And send to this way Kerbols very dangerous for their lives, because I can't calculate amount of fuel.

Fear not. If you can do rendezvous, you can refuel. If you can refuel, you don't have to leave a single kerbal behind. I actually begin my interplanetary excursions by sending tractor/tanker ship. Only real danger is landing, and you can train that on mun or kerbin. KER can compute delta-v for you (and also TWR which is important for landers). After using it for a while I can get some idea just by looking at ship.

To sum it up:

1) Once you have maneuver node showing intercept with destination SOI, you can't get lost. Sure, burn may not go as perfect as node would have it but that can be corrected with little delta-v. No real danger here.

2) Breaking/capture is usualy easy. In emergency, you can always abort and plot course home (on nonideal trajectory, but with lander fuel as a bonus). Again, nothing really dangerous.

3) Landing and lifting back to orbit IS a bit of a jump, but if you can do it on mun, you are 90% set. Delta-v map will show you what you need, KER will tell you what you have, Mun will provide training ground. Just stay clear of Eve :-)

4) Getting back is probably easiest. Sure, you probably wont have lander to serve as fuel reserve, but you will probably have some leftover fuel anyway. And you dont really need to land anyway.

5) Nothing of above applies to Moho.

For me, hardest target so far would be Gilly. Not dangerous at all, but catching with its tiny SOI is a fiddly job. Also, having lander to accelerate _down_ just doesn't feel right :-)

[Just Jim]

Are you landing with this on other planet to refuel or do you have some kind of attached lander/miner/processor on it?

She can land everywhere except Kerbin, Eve, and Laythe..... maybe not Tylo. I'm scared to try Tylo... lol.

I can do Duna if I'm really, really careful.

Instead of using the standard landing gear, I'm using the huge space plane wheels, with the brakes locked. While it seems a little weird at first, it can handle much, much heavier ships than rocket landing gear.

I tried to find a decent screenshot to show everything. Behind the big extendable thermal panels is an IRCU unit and ore tank, and there is a drill in back, low enough to hit the ground and opposite the lower landing can. The reason for the lower landing can is so I can transfer crew down there before EVAing and not have to try and descend a huge ladder.

So she can land, drill for ore, convert it to fuel and top herself off, eject any leftover ore if I wish, and take back off to her next destination. Totally self-sufficiant.

One note, if you try to build one, you'll need a lot of struts to reinforce it. I tried to hide them when possible, so you can't see many of them, but there are a lot more on this ship than it looks.