Exploration Contracts in 1.0.5?

[Kyrt Malthorn]

Has anyone seen the old exploration contracts since the 1.0.5 update? Such as "Explore the Mun" with several objectives, like "Orbit body", "Science from Space Near body", "Land on body", and "Science from the Surface of body". I used to like to double them up with other contracts to visit those same places. I haven't seen any in my current career, and I'm pretty far along, so I'm kinda surprised. Are the expanded record firsts filling the same role now?

EDIT: I'm seeing one now.

I was expecting one for the Mun, but since my first fly-by accidently crashed into the Mun and it registered a landing... I didn't get it.

Now they want me to explore Ike. Edited November 16, 2015 by Kyrt Malthorn

[Geschosskopf]

Yup, the old "Explore Body" contracts are still there. And they still come in the same order with the same omissions and disregard of the clockwork order of transfer windows. I really haven't noticed any changes, except perhaps that they now offer even less science rewards than they did in 1.04, which I didn't think was possible.

[Arsonide]

[quote name='Geschosskopf']Yup, the old "Explore Body" contracts are still there. And they still come in the same order with the same omissions and disregard of the clockwork order of transfer windows. I really haven't noticed any changes, except perhaps that they now offer even less science rewards than they did in 1.04, which I didn't think was possible.[/QUOTE]

The only change to Explore contracts in the latest version is that they were reeled in a bit. In the last version they could target three planets ahead of the player, meaning the moment you orbited Kerbin, they could target Duna and Eve. I scaled this down to two planets, so that they should only be able to target Kerbin's moons initially. The rewards have not been modified at all.

[disembodied]

[quote name='Arsonide']The only change to Explore contracts in the latest version is that they were reeled in a bit. In the last version they could target three planets ahead of the player, meaning the moment you orbited Kerbin, they could target Duna and Eve. I scaled this down to two planets, so that they should only be able to target Kerbin's moons initially. The rewards have not been modified at all.[/QUOTE]

Hm, odd. On a new career, I never did get the "Explore Mun/Minmus" contracts - it gave me Duna, Ike, Eve, Gilly, then Jool and its moons.
The only Mun/Minmus related ones I got were fly by and orbit and at some point it started asking me to plant flags there.

[Streetwind]

[quote name='Arsonide']The only change to Explore contracts in the latest version is that they were reeled in a bit. In the last version they could target three planets ahead of the player, meaning the moment you orbited Kerbin, they could target Duna and Eve. I scaled this down to two planets, so that they should only be able to target Kerbin's moons initially. The rewards have not been modified at all.[/QUOTE]

I still think it's somewhat unfortunate that they generate randomly... the case that you get one for Ike but not for Duna, and then when you go to Ike you invalidate all further possibility of getting the Duna one, that's what 95% of all players get. And it invariably leaves the player feeling like they missed something because they did something wrong.

One-time rewards like that are probably better suited as milestone rewards, now that we have them... [I]*nudge*nudge*[/I] ;)

[Wanderfound]

I've had "fly-by the Mun" and "plant flag on the Mun" contracts (done the first one, haven't done the second yet) without having "explore Mun" show up.

The major problem with the "explore X" contracts is that they provide a disincentive to self-driven exploration. Nobody wants to go anywhere that they haven't already seen the explore contract for, for fear of never getting the contract.

It'd probably be better if the "explore X" contracts were mostly folded into the achievement system.

[Arsonide]

[quote name='Streetwind']One-time rewards like that are probably better suited as milestone rewards, now that we have them... [I]*nudge*nudge*[/I] ;)[/QUOTE]
[quote name='Wanderfound']It'd probably be better if the "explore X" contracts were mostly folded into the achievement system.[/QUOTE]

The Explore contracts consist of orbiting a planet, landing on a planet, and doing science on a planet, all of which are already covered by both passive milestones and World First contracts with a single objective. Rewarding the player for these things again with the milestones wouldn't serve much of a purpose. The passive rewards were added in response to people being disincentivized to progress due to waiting on the contract system to generate any particular contract.

What might help, is not locking the Explores when the player visits the planet, and making them repeatable, but lowering the rewards a bit to compensate. It's something to think about. Edited November 16, 2015 by Arsonide

[Wanderfound]

I'm not suggesting double rewards, I'm suggesting ditching the "explore x" contracts entirely and having it all handled by the passive achievement system.

Or, if keeping the advance money aspect is important, maybe allow the player to declare an intention to "explore x" at any time, which provides advance money but also starts a countdown timer. This is pretty much just making the explore contracts freely available from the start, though...

Regardless: it doesn't matter so much how you get there, but the game should never have a situation where the player is thinking "I'd like to fly to Duna, but I don't want to risk missing the contract".

The exact details are less important than avoiding that situation; if the player wants to make an early interplanetary shot, the game should support the ambition. Taking a realistic-ish "send probes to all planets at the first opportunity, follow with crewed missions after the probes arrive" approach shouldn't penalise the player.

[Arsonide]

[quote name='Wanderfound']I'm not suggesting double rewards, I'm suggesting ditching the "explore x" contracts entirely and having it all handled by the passive achievement system.[/QUOTE]

It is all handled by the passive achievement system. There are already passive milestones for science, orbiting, and landing on any particular body. So in effect, this overlap would double the rewards from those milestones.

[RocketPropelledGiraffe]

But the overlap is already there because the World First contracts like "Fly by the Mun" are still available, as well as the explore contracts.
If you are lucky and get one of those, you get double reward.

The passive system alone is very nice, but I think it means that those non-repeatable contracts should disappear.
Or become repeatable with more specifics, like the tour contracts are. "Fly by the Mun as close as 15 km above the Twin craters and get a temperature scan from it" Something like that?

[sal_vager]

[quote name='Wanderfound']I'm suggesting ditching the "explore x" contracts entirely and having it all handled by the passive achievement system.[/QUOTE]

This would take away this option from players who enjoy "explore X" contracts, you have to take into consideration your view is not universal and that other players have their own preferences.

[RocketPropelledGiraffe]

That's why I think they should be made repeatable, but more specific. See above, or for the "Explore" contracts more like "Explore the Duna Lowlands with barometric scans and EVA missions. Be sure to bring back a sample."

[Arsonide]

[quote name='RocketPropelledGiraffe']Or become repeatable with more specifics[/QUOTE]
[quote name='sal_vager']This would take away this option from players who enjoy "explore X" contracts, you have to take into consideration your view is not universal and that other players have their own preferences.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I think this the best course of action here, looking into how Explore contracts can possibly be different on their own merits, and differentiating them from the one-shot milestones and World Firsts so that the overlap is not as severe. Once they are decoupled from the progression systems, then they wouldn't need to be one-shot contracts that can potentially be missed by an adventurous player.

[Warzouz]

[quote name='Wanderfound']I'm not suggesting double rewards, I'm suggesting ditching the "explore x" contracts entirely and having it all handled by the passive achievement system.[/QUOTE]

The explore contracts are probably on of the most "roleplay" mission we could get. They are very "Mission" oriented. They are the first mission to get there. They should be bookmarked when many other could be discarded.

I would very much having a "mission oriented" contract system. For now we have a unsorted list of flights and random contracts.

Those new "achievements" are quite nice, but they don't do "missions"

[Streetwind]

I would put forth the thesis that there are two kinds of people who "enjoy" the Explore contracts. One kind sees the contract and goes "oh hey, I was gonna fly there next anyway, now I conveniently get extra money. I will accept this contract because it gives me free stuff for something I was already gonna do on my own." For that kind of person, the payout in funds and science is what matters; and that it is a contract at all is mostly irrelevant. If it was a passive milestone that triggered the payout, the result for them would be the same. And the other kind of person is a completionist. That kind of person picks up on the fact that this is a series of one-off contracts. They're [I]special[/I]. That person would do these contracts even if they paid out absolutely nothing. It is important for them to be able to get these contracts... to get [I]all[/I] of them.

The problem here is that the completionist never gets the opportunity to finish them all, because in 99% of all cases, the simple act of completing one of them stops one or more others from ever generating.

The end goal should be a situaton where the opportunist can get the payouts they enjoy, and the completionist can fly his missions without fear of missing something. The thing is, you don't need a series of one-off contracts named "Explore X" to achieve either (or both) of those goals. You just need to ensure that if you [I]do[/I] decide to have a series of one-off contracts named "Explore X", then the completionist player should have the opportunity to access all of them without resorting to spam-rejecting or forcing contracts to generate through the debug menu.

How those goals are achieved, I'm sure there's multiple solutions. Axing the series is one, but not the only solution.



EDIT: Wow, i'm seriously slow at posting :P I think Arsonide's on to something good with his current train of thought. Edited November 16, 2015 by Streetwind

[moogoob]

The "Explore" contracts are my absolute favourites. My crowning achievement has been exploring Jool, Bop and Pol in a single flight, with a single probe lander/dockable probe tug.

It's good to get Arsonide's rationale behind them. :)