How do I stop my plane?

[maceemiller]

Ok, this sounds ridiculous even to me, but ive started to play with the stock planes and finally managed to get one (the ravenspear) landed on the runway but I couldnt slow it down......it just rolled right off the end of the runway?

I landed at about 100m/s, cut the engine then hit the brakes. Nothing, no change to speed at all?

Is it me or just the planes? Ive always struggled to get any pleasure from them but decided to give them a proper go. If I cant slow them down then the is no point playing with them. Edited November 22, 2015 by maceemiller

[Dfthu]

For the brakes if right click you increase the brake power, or put on air brakes, or if you can use thrust reversers on the engines.

[AeroGav]

I normally toggle the brakes on from the button at top of screen rather than by holding B since it takes so long. I've not actually flown the stock ravenspear but what i usually do is right click on each gear leg in the SPH and tweak the "set brake torque" value to 100%. For some reason it defaults to something much lower.

Again, I've not flown the ravenspear but 100 m/s sounds a lil scary. I normally add a lot of wing area to my designs and they land under 40 m/s empty.

Finally, I'd forget about landing ON the runway. Lining up laterally and worrying about precise touchdown zone make things much harder, it's also raised up on a berm which will wreck your plane if you hit it, as will the landing lights at the ends. Real approach lights are designed to come off worse in an airplane impact for that very reason !

Just land beside the runway on the nice flat grassland by the KSC, then taxy up to it if you must have the 100% recovery payout.

[maceemiller]

[quote name='Dfthu']For the brakes if right click you increase the brake power, or put on air brakes, or if you can use thrust reversers on the engines.[/QUOTE]

Surely a stock plane should be ready to go? I will try to increase the brake pressure and see. Maybe ill just stick to rockets.

[COLOR="silver"][SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='AeroGav']I normally toggle the brakes on from the button at top of screen rather than by holding B since it takes so long. I've not actually flown the stock ravenspear but what i usually do is right click on each gear leg in the SPH and tweak the "set brake torque" value to 100%. For some reason it defaults to something much lower.

Again, I've not flown the ravenspear but 100 m/s sounds a lil scary. I normally add a lot of wing area to my designs and they land under 40 m/s empty.

Finally, I'd forget about landing ON the runway. Lining up laterally and worrying about precise touchdown zone make things much harder, it's also raised up on a berm which will wreck your plane if you hit it, as will the landing lights at the ends. Real approach lights are designed to come off worse in an airplane impact for that very reason !

Just land beside the runway on the nice flat grassland by the KSC, then taxy up to it if you must have the 100% recovery payout.[/QUOTE]

Oh ive hit the raised runway before haha!! Will have a look at brake pressure and see how we go.

[Alshain]

Some of those stock planes haven't been updated in quite a while. I've never flown a single one of them so I couldn't tell you which ones.

But besides the plane, how fast were you going when you hit the ground? Edited November 22, 2015 by Alshain

[maceemiller]

[quote name='Alshain']Some of those stock planes haven't been updated in quite a while. I've never flown a single one of them so I couldn't tell you which ones.

But besides the plane, how fast were you going when you hit the ground?[/QUOTE]

100m/s. I cant seem to lose any more speed approaching the runway.

[Alshain]

You can use all the mechanical tools available to slow down, but most of the time you just need to do it before you touchdown. Try to avoid anything faster than 70m/s on touchdown (less if possible). While you can do it safely at faster speeds, you are going to need those air brakes, drag chutes, thrust reverses, or something to slow you down other than brakes. They can only do so much.

There are various means to slow down. S curves are the simplest... turning makes you slow down due to drag. That should be the first goal. Air brakes for bigger planes can help. Flaps for planes that want to nose dive at slower speeds ([URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=560178451"]how to do Flaps[/URL]). Edited November 22, 2015 by Alshain

[maceemiller]

[quote name='Alshain']You can use all the mechanical tools available to slow down, but most of the time you just need to do it before you touchdown. Try to avoid anything faster than 70m/s on touchdown (less if possible). While you can do it safely at faster speeds, you are going to need those air brakes, drag chutes, thrust reverses, or something to slow you down other than brakes. They can only do so much.

There are various means to slow down. S curves are the simplest... turning makes you slow down due to drag. That should be the first goal. Air brakes for bigger planes can help. Flaps for planes that want to nose dive at slower speeds ([URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=560178451"]how to do Flaps[/URL]).[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your reply. Plenty for me to try. Just flying now, turned a few times and shifted 100m/s so fast :) appreciated

[kiwi1960]

Crash land.... any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. :)

[Person012345]

If you can't slow down fast enough on approach, begin approach from further away, cut the engines earlier etc. when you come in to land you should have a very shallow trajectory, you shouldn't be nosing down (you should be going slow enough with low enough thrust that the plane is going losing altitude with the nose flat or slightly in the air) and you should be using your thrust and minor attitude changes to regulate your speed and altitude to around 70 m/s until you're ready to land at which point you can cut the engines and touch down at around 60 m/s.

Or else you can use the methods listed above. Additionally, shoving a parachute on the back is also an option.

[kiwi1960]

some engines have reverse thrust too, it would seem.

[Alshain]

Yeah, nothing wrong with other methods. I'm just describing a typical plane landing. You can always do shuttle style... 20 degree glide slope with a massive flare at the end including air brakes and drag chutes. That works too. Edited November 22, 2015 by Alshain

[AeroGav]

Like I say I am not familiar with the stock aircraft but 100 m/s is crazy fast. I suspect you're flying the whole approach at high speed, which gives you less time to line up, makes it easier to overshoot, makes for higher rate of descent (harder touchdowns) at the same descent angle, and the excess energy/lift means the plane is going to want to float forever when you flare, or be very prone to bouncing.

The best approach speed is going to depend on

1) air density - you're on kerbin near sea level so forget about that
2) design of plane - the ravenspear looks to have decent wing area so i would have thought it could fly slower
3) amount of fuel/cargo onboard - typically 70% of your mass is fuel and normally you'll be landing almost empty. For a training flight, don't take off with full tanks for a realistic experience?

For any aircraft however, you can get a good idea of whether you're flying too fast or too slow for it by looking at your ANGLE OF ATTACK.

What is AOA?

It is the difference between your Yellow Prograde circle on the Navball -O- and the orange nose angle one --W--

In slower flight it takes more AOA to get sufficient lift to just fly level. Best lift-drag ratio is about 2.5 degrees. Below 2.5 degrees you're going so fast that drag from the fuselage is dominant, above 2.5 degrees your high angle of attack creates most of your drag.

Fly slower, with higher AOA , you descend and loose speed more quickly, and have less energy to flare, but the low speeds make lining up on the runway easy and short flare makes it easy to touch down near the start of the runway.

At the upper end, 3 degrees AOA is near your best gliding speed, but will make for a rather fast approach and a long float. If you have a draggy plane or are landing off-airport i might come in like this, means when i get to ground level and can finally see my shadow / landing lights on ground, i still have plenty of energy left if i want to delay touchdown or if i find myself facing upward sloping ground.

EDIT -

[URL=http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/narostel/media/LVN%20Mod%201%20test/2015-11-13_00029_zpshkgkyztg.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o492/narostel/LVN%20Mod%201%20test/2015-11-13_00029_zpshkgkyztg.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

This is me landing on Duna, with 1.05 patch. Since the last patch the air is VERY thin, so landings are fast. You can see my AoA is on the high side - 8 or 9 degrees, so i can't slow down any more or i won't have the energy to flare, or will risk a tailstrike. Fortunately this plane had 3 vernier motors in the belly, which helped me flare a bit.


Here is an early mark 3 design coming down in Kerbin's deserts. I bounced a few times over the hillocks, this is the last bounce and speed is getting way low. Made for a hard final touchdown but no damage.

[URL=http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/narostel/media/walkingpace%20reentry_zpsmapxzdd0.png.html][IMG]http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o492/narostel/walkingpace%20reentry_zpsmapxzdd0.png[/IMG][/URL] Edited November 22, 2015 by AeroGav
now with pics

[maceemiller]

[quote name='AeroGav']Like I say I am not familiar with the stock aircraft but 100 m/s is crazy fast. I suspect you're flying the whole approach at high speed, which gives you less time to line up, makes it easier to overshoot, makes for higher rate of descent (harder touchdowns) at the same descent angle, and the excess energy/lift means the plane is going to want to float forever when you flare, or be very prone to bouncing.

The best approach speed is going to depend on

1) air density - you're on kerbin near sea level so forget about that
2) design of plane - the ravenspear looks to have decent wing area so i would have thought it could fly slower
3) amount of fuel/cargo onboard - typically 70% of your mass is fuel and normally you'll be landing almost empty. For a training flight, don't take off with full tanks for a realistic experience?

For any aircraft however, you can get a good idea of whether you're flying too fast or too slow for it by looking at your ANGLE OF ATTACK.

What is AOA?

It is the difference between your Yellow Prograde circle on the Navball -O- and the orange nose angle one --W--

In slower flight it takes more AOA to get sufficient lift to just fly level. Best lift-drag ratio is about 2.5 degrees. Below 2.5 degrees you're going so fast that drag from the fuselage is dominant, above 2.5 degrees your high angle of attack creates most of your drag.

Fly slower, with higher AOA , you descend and loose speed more quickly, and have less energy to flare, but the low speeds make lining up on the runway easy and short flare makes it easy to touch down near the start of the runway.

At the upper end, 3 degrees AOA is near your best gliding speed, but will make for a rather fast approach and a long float. If you have a draggy plane or are landing off-airport i might come in like this, means when i get to ground level and can finally see my shadow / landing lights on ground, i still have plenty of energy left if i want to delay touchdown or if i find myself facing upward sloping ground.

EDIT -

[URL]http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o492/narostel/LVN%20Mod%201%20test/2015-11-13_00029_zpshkgkyztg.jpg[/URL]

This is me landing on Duna, with 1.05 patch. Since the last patch the air is VERY thin, so landings are fast. You can see my AoA is on the high side - 8 or 9 degrees, so i can't slow down any more or i won't have the energy to flare, or will risk a tailstrike. Fortunately this plane had 3 vernier motors in the belly, which helped me flare a bit.


Here is an early mark 3 design coming down in Kerbin's deserts. I bounced a few times over the hillocks, this is the last bounce and speed is getting way low. Made for a hard final touchdown but no damage.

[URL]http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o492/narostel/walkingpace%20reentry_zpsmapxzdd0.png[/URL][/QUOTE]

Beautifully put.

[BlueCanary]

100m/s is fast, but not too ridiculous. The X-15 landed at 108m/s, and the shuttle at 93, so although you probably do want to kill a bit more speed in the air, you should still be able to stop on the runway, especially in a reasonably light plane like the Ravenspear.

Whereabouts on the runway did you touch down? Maybe you just need more of the runway to slow down? Also, could it be that you are cutting throttle too late and the thrust is keeping it going? I really don't know what could make a ravenspear with brakes on go off the end of the runway, I'm pretty sure that doesn't normally happen.

[maceemiller]

[quote name='BlueCanary']100m/s is fast, but not too ridiculous. The X-15 landed at 108m/s, and the shuttle at 93, so although you probably do want to kill a bit more speed in the air, you should still be able to stop on the runway, especially in a reasonably light plane like the Ravenspear.

Whereabouts on the runway did you touch down? Maybe you just need more of the runway to slow down? Also, could it be that you are cutting throttle too late and the thrust is keeping it going? I really don't know what could make a ravenspear with brakes on go off the end of the runway, I'm pretty sure that doesn't normally happen.[/QUOTE]

I touched down at the very start of the runway. Im not good with planes in KSP yet other games/sims ive had no problems. Will keep trying but if no success I'll stick with rockets.

[AeroGav]

OK, I've now had a chance to test fly the stock Ravenspears (all 3 of them).

They have loads of thrust-weight and a nice balance between control authority and pitch stability, but I don't think small landing gear are a good choice on a plane that size. I kept busting the engines off with tailstrikes, looks like you got to keep speed above 80m/s on takeoff or landing and be GENTLE on rotation. Also , my first attempt to land each of these next to the KSC resulted in a fatal crash, I'm sure with care and practice they could be flown safely, but they're not really trainer jets. Also, it's not like you're getting outstanding capability in exchange for this - apart from aerobatics perhaps - they have no cargo and don't go to space.

Incidentally, I'm working on my first aircraft since the 1.05 patch, just a mark 1 testbed to try out wings that are pre-pitched with incidence. It's meant to be a no-compromise, super efficient airframe, but I honestly think it's way easier to take off and land than the Ravenspear. It's also rather crashworthy, which helps.

[URL]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BworS5V0CvPcNEU5UDktN3NJY0U/view?usp=sharing[/URL]

[URL="http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/narostel/media/2015-11-22_00005_zpsjqjlub9h.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o492/narostel/2015-11-22_00005_zpsjqjlub9h.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Mostly, Jeb flies this when he wants to go Skiing.

[URL=http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/narostel/media/2015-11-23_00020_zpsf184zvft.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o492/narostel/2015-11-23_00020_zpsf184zvft.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

But it is capable of reaching higher altitudes.


My method (not necessarily the best, i'm still learning to fly this plane)

1. apply nose up trim 2 notches from max
2. set prograde on autopilot
3. press 1 to start the Rapier and throttle up
4. the natural initial climb rate seems to be about 50m/s and 20 deg pitch, the autopilot has a tendency to hunt up and down below 5km, so you may want to apply your own inputs to supplement the AP and damp out the zoom climbs it likes to do.
5. the AP will take you supersonic at some time between 10km and 16km depending on phugoids. I prefer to apply manual inputs and keep the nose up , delay supersonic till 16km, i think it saves fuel
6. once you're reaching 290 or so, you're crossing the sound barrier, get it over with as fast as possible to avoid loosing too much to drag. release the back stick inputs until 430 or so, then back stick again to come out of the resulting dive
7. once you've levelled off, press ALT + X to set the TRIM back to neutral.
8. it should climb and accelerate by itself, hitting 1000 m/s by 20km up.
9. at this point you want to level off a bit and reach 1200 before passing 23km when the engines really start to loose power, but in practice i've not managed that yet.
10. i usually end up overshooting past flameout altitude (29.5km) , but your second dip into the atmosphere should take you over 1200. Just don't drop too low, stay above 20km at all costs or you'll blow up.
11. Finally, you will pass your flameout altitude again at > 1200. Now press 2 to ignite the nuke. Be prepared for a slow, slow trip to orbit. Overheating is a worry, because we're doing this without using any oxidiser at all, you might want to pitch up a little bit, above 1400 m/sec you do not want to drop below 30km, Edited November 23, 2015 by AeroGav

[2001kraft]

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P.S. What I am implying is: just don't use stock planes because they are terrible and don't work well with 1.0.5. When I asked why the stock planes had so much problems on a stream with MaxMaps, he answered that they were specifically built with errors and flaws in them so that the player can go ahead and fix those problems on their own. It's like a testbed to fix problems and make an actually cool craft, for those lazy players out there who don't quite want a rocket but don't have the time and/or want to build a plane from scratch. Edited November 23, 2015 by 2001kraft

[maceemiller]

Ok...I appreciate everything you all have said but after trying to fly AeroGav's plane which immediately pulls left and crashes after take off and various other stock and user based planes ive come to the conclusion that if I want to fly planes there are many better pieces of software out there to do it with......rockets are what this game is good at. Once again I thank you all for your time in replying :)

[AeroGav]

Sorry to hear that Mace,

I've discovered that my plane does start to veer left if you open the throttle and just let it run on... it starts to wheelbarrow on it's front wheel at 80 m/s, then wanders left off the runway and eventually flips at about 130 a few km on. Think the main landing gear legs aren't straight, i had another thread about problems i have with the spaceplane hangar , how its' really hard to make stuff attach at the angle you want (the wings) and then when you finally do manage that, daughter parts that attach via the wings, get their alignment screwed up.

However, my plane can be flown off the deck manually at 40 m/sec... you don't have to be gentle with it , just open the throttle and pull the stick all the way back until the plane starts to rise.

Or, you can set SAS, engage Prograde mode on the autopilot and open the throttle, and not touch the controls at all. It will fly itself off at 50 m/s.

[maceemiller]

[quote name='AeroGav']Sorry to hear that Mace,

I've discovered that my plane does start to veer left if you open the throttle and just let it run on... it starts to wheelbarrow on it's front wheel at 80 m/s, then wanders left off the runway and eventually flips at about 130 a few km on. Think the main landing gear legs aren't straight, i had another thread about problems i have with the spaceplane hangar , how its' really hard to make stuff attach at the angle you want (the wings) and then when you finally do manage that, daughter parts that attach via the wings, get their alignment screwed up.

However, my plane can be flown off the deck manually at 40 m/sec... you don't have to be gentle with it , just open the throttle and pull the stick all the way back until the plane starts to rise.

Or, you can set SAS, engage Prograde mode on the autopilot and open the throttle, and not touch the controls at all. It will fly itself off at 50 m/s.[/QUOTE]

Its all good m8 :) I wasnt trying to imply your plane didnt fly......I apologise for my lack of a detailed explanation however im more annoyed at myself trying to do something I really cant do in KSP. in other flight sims I've had great fun and success in what ive tried. Here, not so much yet I bought the game for the rockets.

Ive really enjoyed your posts. The amount of effort you have put in is simply outstanding. I will attempt to fly your (and other) planes again but I still expect no success. Still, breaks up the rockets and opens a new challenge to me, so KSP wins again :)

[numerobis]

Three tricks:
1. After landing, hit the brakes and then pull up. At high speed, that is mainly because it will pull your nose up and thus increase drag. At lower speed, it's a combination of drag on the elevator itself, plus adding a force on the rear landing gear which improves traction -- your brakes are more effective.

2. Before landing, you can bleed off speed by pulling up hard, then going back into a descent just in time to avoid stalling. The danger is that if you do stall, you'll be too low to recover but too high to land softly (that cost me a materials sample just recently; the rest of the plane survived).

Similarly I am too impatient for a civilian-style half-hour descent, so I dive from 10km to 500m or so and pull hard. I'll be going about Mach 0.8 and *bam* I drop the speed to 70 m/s, pulling 10g's. Or if I misjudge, *bam* zero m/s and lots of explosions. YMMV.

3. The KSC grounds are flat for miles around -- much flatter than the early runway. You can land on there and taxi to the runway!

[maceemiller]

Well, since the forums been away ive concentrated hard on planes, and boom! Managed to build, fly and land 2 planes  they both fly well and im so happy I perservered. Thankyou once again to all who gave their advice to me.

[Wanderfound]

100m/s (AKA 360km/h) is a crazy fast speed to land a light aircraft. It's not a crazy fast speed to land a hypersonic spaceplane.

But, as others have said, S-turns to lose speed in the air and crank up the default (rear) brake settings.

In tough situations (e.g. interplanetary, landing a 747 on the island), drag chutes work a treat. Retrothrust can also be helpful; if your jets don't reverse, stash a pair of Twitch or Monoprop engines in an appropriate place.

[AeroGav]

8 hours ago, maceemiller said:

Well, since the forums been away ive concentrated hard on planes, and boom! Managed to build, fly and land 2 planes  they both fly well and im so happy I perservered. Thankyou once again to all who gave their advice to me.

Good job !  Any pictures of your creations?