Water/liquid/ocean related changes

[KerikBalm]

The kerbal universe consists of 16 celestial objects: 1 star, 6 planets, 9 moons.
14 of these have a surface that we can land on.
3 of these have oceans... so ocean related stuff is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.... but only 4 bodies that you can land on even have atmospheres... and aerodynamics is immensely important.

So, hydrodynamic stuff shouldn't be ignored either.

The 1.05 update just made vast areas accessible to us that were previously unaccessible (for all practical purposes), so its time to change things in response.

First, previously the "ocean" biomes were forced to have no ore... I think this should be undone... let us try for underwater mining operations if we want.
This also has adversely affected laythe, as a lot of the land on Laythe is still classed as the "sagen sea" biome, and has 0 resources (Side complaint, why are the shores biomes on kerbin very accurate, but the shores biomes on laythe are quite far from the actual shores in many many cases).
I am also aware of spots on Eve where there is solid ground, but its classified as a liquid biome forced to have 0 ore.
Second... the underwater areas are even more boring than the surface areas... dark, and featureless... although there is some changng topography in many cases... underwater easter eggs please?
A titanic/shipwreck on Kerbin?

A submerged alien saucer [spoiler]since there's already one on Mun and the north pole of Kerbin)[/spoiler]

Underwater pyramids/ city (atlantis... or a yonaguni like monument... yea... its likely pareidolia, [spoiler]but so is the face on mars and that got an easter egg[/spoiler]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonaguni_Monument[/url]

A Kraken corpse at the bottom of the sea.... etc

Lastly, parts for underwater:
Ballast tanks!
I already modded myself some, but I'd like it even better if there was a part that could increase in mass (by taking on ballast) only when submerged in a liquid (my version just generates mass out of nowhere, and can then jettison it... works in a vacuum too, but I don't know why you'd want to increase your mass in space when you can't use it as propellant),
Special Kerbal suits: neutrally buoyant kerbals, no RCS
I know in the past they've looked into having kerbals able to equip different suits... I want a kerbal dive suit so I can eva from my subs, and actually get back in my ship... then we can have additional science from taking samples of the ocean floor, etc).
It would really suck for a kerbal to be in its laythe sub, and then get out and float to the surface, unable to get back in the craft that it needs to get back home.

[egoego]

I always tought of KSP as Kerbal Space Program, not Kerbal Submarine Program.
We need the atmosphere, because it seems logical to fight it on our way to orbit (similar to space programs on earth). We do have oceans to land in (similar to earth). But I don't think any space program has to deal with submarine stuff.

If submarine stuff will happen, I hope it comes in KSP 2.0 or 1.5 or something like that. For now, fix the bugs, balance the stuff that is there, keep entirely new stuff to far away updates. Your ideas are nice, but I don't need such things anytime soon. :)

[KerikBalm]

Well, then are you opposed to the new wheel physics changes coming in 1.1?
Is a rover on another planet under the purview of a "space program"?
If so, shouldn't a submarine on another planet/body be part of a space program?
(ie: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_Mare_Explorer[/url] )

The atmosphere of duna is a fun thing to try and navigate... I think this rover, this base, this electric fan powered plane (we should really have a stock electric fan, I modded this one) is part of a space program:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/NarYTg2.png[/img]

The ISRU changes to allow underwater ore would mostly effect the space aspect of the game... who is going to make a non-spacecraft to mine ore on Kerbin?
Mining ore on Laythe makes much more sense
otherwise, fixing the laythe biomes so that the shores are where the actual shores are makes sense (fyi, in my game the "dunes" biome has 0 ore, the shores biomes seem to have between 0.5-1% ore concentration, the sea biome is 0 as always... the only significant ore is at the poles...5%... but mainly i'm interested in the shores ore... except the shores biome isn't actually where the shores are)

To me, at this point, a lot of the "space" challenge is designing a payload within the confines of what I can launch, or designing a launcher that can handle my payload, or a bit of both.

The challenge of getting a submarine to Eve sounds fun too me... but a submarine on Eve is not viable due to lack of a good propulsion source, and no ability to refuel it in the water.
Laythe on the other hand... a goliath would make a good propulsion engine... the craft should have good range, and refuelers should have the range to go out and reach it.

Indeed, I made a SSTO that can land on water, as my laythe lander (6 kerbals to the surface of laythe and back, it can just about make the trip twice if its internal fuel load is balanced.
This is on laythe, not Kerbin:
[img]https://scontent-mrs1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/12232672_10104009213191453_3293490752122616720_o.jpg[/img]
Under the current system, it is a submersible...
[img]http://i.imgur.com/sBuHYIl.png[/img]

But as soon as I turn off the engines and it slows down, it comes to the surface.

I could launch something with ore tanks to achieve nearly neutral buoyancy... it would be very difficult to manage to get a big massive payload down to the oceans of laythe... and it would become lighter as it burns off fuel..

I copied and modded stock parts and stock parts from previous versions to help get around these challenges...
Ballast tanks so I can control buoyancy, and have a lighter payload/reentry design..
Electric propulsion so I don't need to mine or refuel it, or have buoyancy change as I go around:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/zS3Ws0r.png[/img]


I don't want to go play submarine program on Kerbin... I want to design payloads to explore new parts of other worlds, and overcome the challenge of getting them to orbit around kerbin, transfering them to eve/laythe, and then getting them down to the oceans of Eve/Laythe without burning up in the atmosphere or breaking up when they hit the water(?)...
That is very much under the purview of a space program

[egoego]

I am sorry that I opposed your ideas. Actually you are right with the point that the bottom of the ocean on other worlds also need to be explored. I am just worried that Squad may at some point declare KSP done and would stop working on it. So I hope for the current features (like wheels, we already have those) to be fixed and balanced, when that happens. If Squad would add more and more features they could run into problems keeping up with fixing and balancing everything.

TL;DR: Some parts (like ballast tanks) to explore oceans (and fixe the bioms) would be nice. But I still think they should have lower priority than fixing current stuff.

[Rath]

[quote name='egoego']I always tought of KSP as Kerbal Space Program, not Kerbal Submarine Program.
We need the atmosphere, because it seems logical to fight it on our way to orbit (similar to space programs on earth). We do have oceans to land in (similar to earth). But I don't think any space program has to deal with submarine stuff.

If submarine stuff will happen, I hope it comes in KSP 2.0 or 1.5 or something like that. For now, fix the bugs, balance the stuff that is there, keep entirely new stuff to far away updates. Your ideas are nice, but I don't need such things anytime soon. :)[/QUOTE]

NASA collaborated with DARPA and the US navy about building a submarine launched satellite. The military wanted quick, transportable spysats, and NASA wanted a cheap light launcher

[KerikBalm]

[quote] So I hope for the current features (like wheels, we already have those) to be fixed and balanced, when that happens. If Squad would add more and more features they could run into problems keeping up with fixing and balancing everything.

TL;DR: Some parts (like ballast tanks) to explore oceans (and fixe the bioms) would be nice. But I still think they should have lower priority than fixing current stuff. [/quote]

Well, what features do you think KSP still needs?
Some engine rebalance perhaps... but that's just tweaking values in a text file.
I'd like a 2,5m LV-N... and a radioisotope rocket sounds interesting, as does a LANTR engine (ie, porkjet's atomic age mod).
1.25m and 2.5m ion engine (clusters?) seem interesting.
A nuclear reactor for power generation - I don't want to spam RTGs for Eeloo mining, and using fuel cells to supply the energy to mine and split ore into LF+OX just seems.... too unrealistic. It would also go well with electric propulsion (something near future propulsion like?) for space, but also planets (nuclear submarines and aircraft)


but...
The ore changes to seas: That can be done in 2 minutes, deleting the part of Ore.cfg that specifies those biomes have zero ore.
I'm tempted to do it in my game (I like to keep it stock so that my craft and missions are fully compatible with other people's games, and my achievements won't be due to some OP mod part)...
As you can see in my last image... I've already made all the parts needed for a more complete "submarine tool kit"... 3 sizes of ballast tanks, an electric fan (that also works for aircraft on worlds without oxygen), and intakes/nacelles to supply the electric fan with "IntakeAtmosphere" (instead of "IntakeAir"... works on Duna, Eve, and even Jool although I haven't made any designs that fly there).

The nacelles use the old engine nacelle model, the electric fans use the old basic jet model, also there's intakes using the old radial intake model... it didn't take more than 2 hours to put together, and tweak values until I had something that seems reasonably balanced... all it needs is a retexture for the ballast tanks...
although better "artwork" for the intakes/fans/nacelles would be nice, and a retexture for the ballast tanks...
also it would be nice if the ballast generator only worked when the craft was "splashed down"/in water.

as to the biomes... I don't think it would take soo much work... less than a day I'm pretty sure.
The current biome map:
[url]http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/images/9/95/Laythe_Biome_Map_0.90.0.png[/url]
As you can see... there are many islands that have no shore biome... some that have just a few pixels... some that have extensive shore biomes, but quite far from the actual land/sea divide (while the shore biomes are quite accurate on kerbin)... I suspect they used the height map to generate most of it, and they just need to lower the altitude that they use to distinguish between the "sagen sea" and "shores"


Adding easter eggs... yea... that can wait (though I think many they can re-use a lot of stuff they already have...
[spoiler]copy and then retexture the pyramis of kerbin/vallhenge, put them underwater onkerbin and/or laythe... put a monolith or dead kraken under the seas of eve, throw in an underwater saucer somewhere, etc...
I think it wouldn't take much time at all... but maybe I underestimate it...

New artwork would take the most time... a new biome map doesn't take much time (I'm basing this statement on the way biomes were defined by old custom biomes mod).
The submarine parts aren't hard to make (since I made some)... giving them "up to date" artwork, rather than re-using old artwork (that it seems they didn't like so much if they got rid of it) would be the most time consuming part.

Neutrally buoyant diving suit kerbals? if they do implement the various "suits" for the kerbals (like they've contemplated doing in the past), then this wouldn't add much work at all if they were already going to implement different "kerbal suits"

I'm just really thinking it would be cool to have an underwater mining base at a rich ore spot on laythe, kerbals eva-ing around... subs bringing fuel up to the surface to refuel hydroplane SSTOs, or a floating launchpad....

bah... anyway... I think the hydrodynamic update was awesome, but now some more content could be added to go with it.
Ballast tanks, electric propulsion, underwater ore, and a few easter eggs shouldn't be too much to ask.

[MKI]

Simple stuff like fixing Biomes on Laythe are defiantly something to get to immediately. But saying submarines exploration is just as important as other aspects of the game is more questionable. Now there is the comparison between the number of Atmospheres and ocean exploration, this isn't a good comparison mainly because this is a space program game, atmospheres affect your Space exploration extensively, going up and coming down, where as oceanic exploration is along the lines of deep mining or terrain excavation. There is also the comparison of terrain exploration and rover support compared to oceanic exploration. This again is less important as going underwater is another barrier to pass compared to just moving on the surface, which is not only is the big main goal of space exploration, its realistic and tangible. Sending a submarine explorer to another planet is more or less impossible with today’s technology, even if its totally doable on our own planet, doing it in Kerbins waters is cool, but how does it help space exploration, it doesn't. Its just a place to go to get some data, not fully explore, very much like our real life efforts of liquid oceans on other planets.

Asking for submarine support is doable, and can fit into the game as Squad has already shown support of handling some aspects of liquid-ship support. But I think in its current state its as far as it should go. Any further should be left up to mods. There just is too little interest and reward for going underwater. Along with that its very difficult.

Finally I would ask would you rather have more hydrodynamic support OR just more planets to explore? Most would agree that having more planets/planetary bodies to explore would be better, and I agree. With that, adding more hydrodynamic support should be left to mods. More space oriented stuff should be what Squad focuses on.


PS There is an Underwater Easter Eggs in KSP. Which could only be found by mods last I checked. But now I believe its possible to actually go check it out yourself.
I also think Squad should just make another Kerbal game for underwater Exploration XD. Instead of Spacecraft, make water/sub-marine craft. Be more about making larger ships that scan the watery depths, than the physics of space travel. It defiantly could be its own game haha, just not this one.
[B]Kerbal Naval Program (tm)[/B]

[KerikBalm]

[quote name='MKI'] But saying submarines exploration is just as important as other aspects of the game is more questionable. Now there is the comparison between the number of Atmospheres and ocean exploration, this isn't a good comparison...[/quote]
I may have given you the wrong impression... Its not as important
The comparison was to point out that:
* most bodies don't have liquids
* however, even if it is a minor part of the kerbal-verse, it shouldn't be ignored (not being ignored does not mean of equal importance to other aspects of the game)

I think that because squad already implemented these hydro changes (which frankly, I never asked for, nor expected, nor wanted, but now that I have them I'm happy about them), that we should get just a little bit more to get a better return on the investment.
Sure, I've already acknowledged that currently, most of this can be easily fixed with mods...
But before the aero update there was FAR and NEAR. Before the ISRU there was karbonite and kethane.
Before the new plane parts, there was Porkjet's SpacePlanePlus modpack.
The stock game was made better with these mods.
I think the stock game would be better if the ocean aspect was fleshed out further
- Note, I am not complaining... I never expected these hydro changes, and they just came out: To immediately expect the seas to be full of easter eggs and ore and fun stuff to go exploring in a sub where I can alter buoyancy is far too much.
Its a suggestion for stuff I'm willing to wait for.

* Also, electric atmospheric propulsion that doesn't require oxygen would be great not just for subs, but also for flying on duna and Eve

[quote]mainly because this is a space program game, atmospheres affect your Space exploration extensively, going up and coming down, where as oceanic exploration is along the lines of deep mining or terrain excavation[/quote]
Yes, the atmosphere is much more important, which is why I was calling way back when for a stock-ification of ferrams NEAR mod... and I never gave a thought to water.
Oceanic exploration could be along the lines of deep mining... but it should be more like the surface and atmosphere exploration - mostly science, some mining. We could have science reports from deep ocean, shallow ocean, different sea floor biomes - basically what you'd do with rovers and subsonic/suborbital aircraft.


[quote]There is also the comparison of terrain exploration and rover support compared to oceanic exploration. This again is less important as going underwater is another barrier to pass compared to just moving on the surface, which is not only is the big main goal of space exploration, its realistic and tangible. Sending a submarine explorer to another planet is more or less impossible with today’s technology.[/quote]
[url]https://www.nasa.gov/content/titan-submarine-exploring-the-depths-of-kraken/[/url]

Exploring under the surface, be it an ice crust, or the surface of a massive lake, is also a big goal in space exploration, and it is realistic and tangible, not impossible, to send a robotic submarine to Titan with today's technology.

[quote]Asking for submarine support is doable, and can fit into the game as Squad has already shown support of handling some aspects of liquid-ship support. But I think in its current state its as far as it should go. Any further should be left up to mods. There just is too little interest and reward for going underwater. Along with that its very difficult.[/quote]
Well, as I showed... adding ballast tanks really isn't hard to do... all it needs is a retexture, and ideally a may to disable the "ballast generator" when its above the water (but this isn't so important... as in almost any other situation... adding more useless mass to your vessel is very very bad and not an exploit).
The electric propulsion would be dual purpose for atmo stuff on duna and eve. A goliath or wheesel make fine sub engines as they are for Kerbin and Laythe.
I'd be happy with those two
Splitting laythe's ocean into smaller biomes for science purposes, and some undersea easter eggs would just be "icing on the cake"

[quote]Finally I would ask would you rather have more hydrodynamic support OR just more planets to explore? Most would agree that having more planets/planetary bodies to explore would be better, and I agree. With that, adding more hydrodynamic support should be left to mods. More space oriented stuff should be what Squad focuses on.[/quote]
I think adding entirely new planets is quite a different proposition than adding a ballast tank and electric fan part....
That said... I would love a uranus/nepture analogue (The outer planets are now grouped into 2 gas giants, and 2 "ice giants" we have a gas giant analogue... lets get an ice giant analogue!), and an eris and/or sedna analogue... I can't easily mod those myself, and keep my game largely comparable to other people's... but I can and already have given myself electric fans and ballast tanks.

That said... the "space" part has become pretty easy for me now... at least as far as sending a kerbal to go plant a flag and come home...
As I said earlier... now the space challenge for me is bringing not simple a single kerbal, but a complex payload from Kerbin's surface, to space, and then to the surface of another celestial body. I'm looking for new an interesting payloads, rather than just generic landers, surface habs, rovers/aircraft to get around the surface.
Getting a functional submarine to orbit, and then from orbit, and softly into an ocean, sounds like a fun space challenge to me.
Sure, I could make a "dummy submarine" and do that... but if I go through all that, I'd like the submarine to actually do something other than look cool.


[quote]PS There is an Underwater Easter Eggs in KSP. Which could only be found by mods last I checked. But now I believe its possible to actually go check it out yourself.[/quote]
I think you're talking about the smiley face, no? at least an easter egg below an extra-kerestrial ocean would require spacetravel.

[quote]I also think Squad should just make another Kerbal game for underwater Exploration XD. Instead of Spacecraft, make water/sub-marine craft. Be more about making larger ships that scan the watery depths, than the physics of space travel. It defiantly could be its own game haha, just not this one.
[B]Kerbal Naval Program (tm)[/B][/QUOTE]
Yea.... then they'd need to model increasing pressure, crush depths, etc... I'm not proposing we go that much into it.

Ballast tanks
Electric propulsion
Underwater ore
and if they have time, scatter a few easter eggs (can reuse current ones, like they already reuse monoliths an the saucers) Edited November 25, 2015 by KerikBalm

[pandaman]

I think there's space for a few 'ocean' oriented parts such as propulsion and ballast tanks to assist with exploring the seas and make it 'feel' a bit more authentic to do too, along with adding a few undersea features and anomalies to explore, without losing the 'space' aspect of the game. We all want to have more places to visit and explore, so adding the existing ocean depths to the places we can visit is a good thing IMO.

[amankd]

On 11/25/2015, 9:54:55, KerikBalm said:

[quote name='MKI']

Ballast tanks
Electric propulsion
Underwater ore
and if they have time, scatter a few easter eggs (can reuse current ones, like they already reuse monoliths an the saucers)

have you seen my mod? balastanks extended, i went for a stockalike feel to the extend of using the textures https://kerbalstuff.com/mod/1297/balastanks-extended

i would also like through some meens mods of otherwise to implement underwater terrain scatter, to make the sea bed less barren

[322997am]

Well subs are a part of space. NASA is planning to send a sub to Europa. And there are plenty of science reasons to do that. So this thread is legitimately saying that subs need attention.