Petition: Return to VBulletin!

[Virtualgenius]

We should have been notified of potential losses so we could have backed them up, how hard is to say hey guys back up your subscription threads your mail etc. If it all goes perfect you dont have an issue you followed due diligence and if it did go pear shaped all you have to say hey guys load your backups this didnt make it across at least the community was informed.  

[Bill Phil]

13 minutes ago, Virtualgenius said:

We should have been notified of potential losses so we could have backed them up, how hard is to say hey guys back up your subscription threads your mail etc. If it all goes perfect you dont have an issue you followed due diligence and if it did go pear shaped all you have to say hey guys load your backups this didnt make it across at least the community was informed.  

I seem to recall that they did say to backup data.

They most likely didn't expect to lose that particular set of data, though.

[Hobbes Novakoff]

1 hour ago, Tex_NL said:

It was not beyond their control.

So, I assume you are affiliated with SQUAD? How do you know what was or was not in their control?

1 hour ago, Tex_NL said:

When your car needs replacing do you blindly buy another one only to realize the next day it lacks tires? And seats. And a wind shield, A roof. Lights. Etc. No of course not! You make sure it works and meets all your requirements. You take it for a test drive. Clearly this has not been done with the forum.

I'm going to question your metaphor here. First off, SQUAD has been talking about this migration for a while now. They decided on a platform a while ago. I remember seeing hints of a new forum in 2014. The car here does in fact have seats (User accounts), tires (Connections to the Web), a wind shield and roof (Security, unlike vBulletin), lights (search tools, which I think are far better now), an engine (the server isn't a steaming puddle) and it even has some new things like automatic transmission (auto-parsed post and video links), a log of gas mileage (ability to easily see who repped a post), customizable heads-up display (custom subscription feeds), Bluetooth connectivity (A mobile site that actually works), and a digital speedometer (high-resolution avatars). The only issue is that you need to redo your auto insurance (subscription feed.) Just because you don't happen to like the color? Here's the thing. They're still installing everything, including various add-ons. To keep going with the car metaphor, they'll probably be putting in a new stereo (sketchfab embeds) and a dashboard GPS (Themes or some such. Analogy broke down a little there, but analogies are like oceans.)

[Hobbes Novakoff]

1 hour ago, Virtualgenius said:

We should have been notified of potential losses so we could have backed them up, how hard is to say hey guys back up your subscription threads your mail etc. If it all goes perfect you dont have an issue you followed due diligence and if it did go pear shaped all you have to say hey guys load your backups this didnt make it across at least the community was informed.  

How does one back up, on their home computer, a bunch of data stored in some server somewhere in a program not designed in any way to do that, then re-import that data into another server in a different place using  a completely different piece of software not designed to do that?

[razark]

11 minutes ago, Hobbes Novakoff said:

The car here does in fact have seats...

Yes, but the car also has all the radio stations set to dubstep version of Gregorian chant/polka fusion (WYSIWYG editor), and the buttons jammed with glue (no way to change it), and most of the passengers are either whining about the car (don't like the forum) or are blaming the driver because the other half won't shut up (blindly ignoring any complaint, no matter the validity).  Meanwhile, the police (moderators) are trying to set up a roadblock (working on maintaining some semblance of order) while people continue to drive through the flowerbeds (post threads complaining about the forum all over the place).

[Hobbes Novakoff]

3 minutes ago, razark said:

Yes, but the car also has all the radio stations set to dubstep version of Gregorian chant/polka fusion (WYSIWYG editor), and the buttons jammed with glue (no way to change it), and most of the passengers are either whining about the car (don't like the forum) or are blaming the driver because the other half won't shut up (blindly ignoring any complaint, no matter the validity).  Meanwhile, the police (moderators) are trying to set up a roadblock (working on maintaining some semblance of order) while people continue to drive through the flowerbeds (post threads complaining about the forum all over the place).

First off, where is that car? Just Cause 3? Second, I personally prefer the WYSIWYG editor. You can do everything that you can do in BBCode (and in many cases more), but you don't have to memorize five hundred different codes. And finally... besides the editor, none of that is actually SQUAD's fault in any way. Just sayin'.

[Columbia]

On 12/1/2015, 11:16:38, MedwedianPresident said:

In Memoriam

vBulletin on the KSP Forum

2012-2015

 

The KSP community will never forget the amazing software which was banished from our forum as part of a downgrade action. We will always remember vBulletin - the thing that has made our community professional and serious.

 

The KSP Forum Community

 

You realize that VBulletin, while I myself will miss it, is outdated and has a lot of issues? Especially security?

Hell, I'm pretty sure if there was no internal motive for the forum move we didn't know about, they wouldn't go through the burden of migrating this entire forum.

[r4pt0r]

I love how much time hobbes novakoff in particular has spent in the various forum-upgrade threads, trying to do damage control. Looking at polls, more than half of the users here are not at all fond if it, but there's no way squad is going back so why waste time arguing about it lol.

[RainDreamer]

Well, think about it this way: You moved to a new place, spending time, resources and effort to bring all your stuff over to prepare for a new life there. Turns out the new place sucks. But still, do you want to waste all the resources you just spent and double up so you can go back to where you were? Even if it is a yes, it is not going to happen instantly.

So for better or for worse...make yourself at home for now. Besides, we are (hopefully) here for the community, not the software.

[Claw]

There's no need to start having a go at each other.

Perhaps instead of constantly pushing to go back to an unsupported product, we could actually work a bit more on modifying the new place. I can tell you that Kasper has been working pretty hard to get things sorted so the forums are stable and usable, and has been working on adding things back in along the way (such as adding tables in). I don't know if it's possible to do a manual version of the editor, or change the "theme" of the site, but they're all things we can look into along the way.

 

[Red Iron Crown]

4 hours ago, r4pt0r said:

Looking at polls, more than half of the users here are not at all fond if it, but there's no way squad is going back so why waste time arguing about it lol.

The poll in this thread shows a minority supporting the petition to go back to vB, and a minority of negative response in this poll. Are there others of which I'm unaware?

This is one of the few topics where I consider forum polls to be relevant, as it's about forum stuff.

[r4pt0r]

1 hour ago, Red Iron Crown said:

The poll in this thread shows a minority supporting the petition to go back to vB, and a minority of negative response in this poll. Are there others of which I'm unaware?

This is one of the few topics where I consider forum polls to be relevant, as it's about forum stuff.

Seems I was posting with tired eyes, I thought I saw a slight majority against. Lets just pretend I work for a major news network and tried to spin the poll in my favor.

Point about nothing changing stands though right? What good will come from further dialog on the subject, we are not going back

[Claw]

3 hours ago, r4pt0r said:

Point about nothing changing stands though right? What good will come from further dialog on the subject, we are not going back

Because despite some vocal opinions, the moderators aren't a bunch of ogres looking for every chance to squelch discussion. This OP, poll, and thread doesn't break rules.

And as I hinted at, while we aren't going to go back to the old system, we are interested in hearing people out so that we can make this place our own.

[Stone Blue]

^^
I agree...

While I hate this new software, I realise there is no way it will go back... I understand the old software may have had security issues and outdated functionality, but aesthetically it was a HECK of a lot better than the new one... I also realise there are just as many people who actully LIKE the new look, if not more, than the those who want the old back... But it would have been nice to at least maybe give us a preview of what we were in for, and possibly a chance to comment on at least the LOOK of any new software...

Here's what I think is an apt analogy:

All along, Squad has had a certain "LOOK" and "FEEL" they have wanted to keep the game to, all thru its development... Even so far as to publicly state many times, that certain mods which TONS of people have wanted to see incorporated to stock, have not met the "LOOK" or "FEEL" in keeping with the game...
OK...

So waht if we as a community had had the power to over-ride them and completely change the "LOOK" and "FEEL" of the game...???
How about a more Sci-Fi look?...How about a more realistic look?... How about a more "1st-person-shooter-blow-everything-up" game like a large following have done...Just look at the popularity of BD weapons & stuff...

Anyway, my point is, what if the "LOOK" and "FEEL" of the game was drastically changed overnite?... What would Squad say then, if the tables were changed on them overnite?... How would it feel for those of you who LIKE the basic, Kerbally, cartoony look?... Everyone just needs to realise there ARE both sides to everything, and love it or hate it, there NEEDS to be discussion to keep things somewhat stable and consistent...

This new forum software is NOT consistent with the old... Maybe some previous discussion about what we were in for, or how closely the new software could be customized to resemble the old, without the drastic changes, may have made the change over more palatable for those who were fine with the "LOOK" & "FEEL" of the old...
 

Edited December 5, 2015 by Stone Blue

[steve_v]

5 hours ago, r4pt0r said:

Point about nothing changing stands though right? What good will come from further dialog on the subject, we are not going back

Can't say I ever took the "petition" part seriously, going back was never going to happen. It does provide another place to collect opinion on the new forum though - IMO it's not without it's faults and there are quite a few things I think were a step in the wrong direction. Fix those, and I'm sure it'll be just fine.

Edited December 5, 2015 by steve_v

[waterlubber]

Sure, let's go back to vBulletin!

 

Let the forums get hacked, with your password and credit card info! (assuming the KSP main website is hosted w./ the forums)
 

Instead of forcing Squad to revert to a broken piece of software in an incredibly rude way, make suggestions. I would love to see a dark theme for nighttime reading. That's all, really.

[Stone Blue]

^^
I dont think anyone seriously wants to go back to vBull, just for the sake of the software itself... Its mostly about the harsh switch in the PACKAGING, that we've been presented with...

[Virtualgenius]

This resembles what very much happened with spaceport  the community had outcry and they didnt want to listen because a deal had already been struck. The forum software change much the same thing at least they warned us this time, the community is having an outcry again but I am not actually sure they are listening. I agree that we should have had  preview of what it was going to look and feel like or a slow phase in would have been far better, but just like spaceport its been implemented and in a years time nobody is going to care 

Edited December 5, 2015 by Virtualgenius

[steve_v]

15 minutes ago, Virtualgenius said:

its been implemented and in a years time nobody is going to care

My main issues with the way this was handled: Full of bees on launch day, effectively down again hours after it went up. Subsciptions nuked, BBCode trashed, horrible to read. AKA not ready for prime-time on launch day, like everything else Squad has released of late.
It seems to be running smoothly now, and the remaining issues for me are: Awful theme that makes my eyes burn, No non-WYSYIWG editor (and stupid double linefeed by default), old subscription lists gone. They're not the only problems, but they're the ones that have no real workaround.
Fix these and I'll stop caring (and complaining) right now. Hey, if the editor stops annoying me I might even forgive the subscription thing and start liking the new features.

Edited December 5, 2015 by steve_v

[Virtualgenius]

I  miss my subscription list and would like it back even a list of threads i followed would suffice so i could re-sub. I too would be happy and stop complaining but am resigning my self to the fact that we are stuck with this lemon 

[Hobbes Novakoff]

14 hours ago, r4pt0r said:

I love how much time hobbes novakoff in particular has spent in the various forum-upgrade threads, trying to do damage control. Looking at polls, more than half of the users here are not at all fond if it, but there's no way squad is going back so why waste time arguing about it lol.

Damage control? What damage am I controlling? What you call "damage control" I call "stating my opinion."

Also, personal attacks? Really?

[Vaporo]

Nope. While I liked the overall feel and appearance of vBulletin, you could tell that there were a lot of things broken with it (In fact, for a while I even assumed that it was some kind of legacy software from around 2000 that people only still use because it's cheap) and am glad that the upgrade happened. The search function actually works now, and, while there are still kinks that need worked out, like how reputation is awarded (I think that you literally accumulate rep almost five times slower now), everything works smoothly enough that I think that the change was a good one.

[Claw]

1 hour ago, steve_v said:

effectively down again hours after it went up. Subsciptions nuked

I believe Kasper said some of these things were linked. I might be remembering some of the details wrong, but I think the subscription lists were causing the forum to choke. When that piece got turned off, the forum became a lot more stable. There was some efforts, but in the end that part had to be wiped out to keep the forum from 502s.

 

Edited December 5, 2015 by Claw

[Virtualgenius]

Well now that its stable how about scheduling some maintenance and re exporting people profiles back in with there contacts and subscriptions

[steve_v]

2 hours ago, Claw said:

I believe Kasper said some of these things were linked.

I know, I was on IRC when he discovered the cause of those 502s. Does not excuse the fact that it should have been caught before the new forum went public.

Now it needs to be fixed properly, and the missing data recovered.