Request: Wingtip vortice condensation

[Inacio]

Hey!

This is something I've wanted for a long time. The photos will explain it better than I ever would be able to:

 

 

 

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I assume making these appear dynamically, checking each wing's geometry would be hard, so it's okay if it's a (very small or invisible) part you have to add manually. It'd be preferred if these appeared (or not) based on speed and atmospheric conditions, though!

Edited January 21, 2016 by Inacio

[meyerweb]

Seems like something that would require weather conditions, doesn’t it?  Otherwise they’d just be there all the time.

[MaxPeck]

What you're looking for are called "contrails" (or "chemtrails" if you're crazy)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

 

[Guest]

On 1/21/2016 at 6:20 PM, Inacio said:

Bumping this!

/offtopic

My god, your signature is an eyesore

/offtopic

Also, I think that would be kinda hard to make in KSP. Finding out where are the wingtips can't be an easy task...

[GDJ]

Yeah, if you think KSP has a hard time doing proper atmospheric phenomenon now, adding this would be a real drag, pardon the pun.

It would look cool for sure (and I have plenty of planes that would look great showing these), but the maths the CPU would have to do would be horrendous, and the GPU's nowadays would have a challenge too.

[MaxPeck]

I don't think it's unfeasible.  This mod basically does it...

https://kerbalstuff.com/mod/796/PersistentTrails

I would think just double the trails and figure out how to attach them to the furthest point of the aircraft, then just make them white.  You'd have to give them a lifespan and max length too, since contrails dissipate over time.

[Inacio]

It would be perfectly acceptable to have an invisible or very small part you add to wingtips and such.

This isn't something incredibly complex either, from what I gather. Just calculate the dynamic pressure (already done in many many mods), height (already done in many mods), etc. More detailed information on when these effects occur can be found on this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices#Visibility_of_vortices . It doesn't really have to be 100% realistic, though. 

The trails can be simple trails, yeah, like the ones in PersistentTrails. Just make them white and lower opacity and it's good enough. I hear particles in KSP at high speeds are very difficult to make, so regular trails should suffice.

[Mecripp]

Couldn't you do this with smokescreen plugin ? Just make a part that added a smoke trail or am, I missing something ?

EDIT- There was a mod take a look with a little editing of a cfg one might make what you want  http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/71720-aerobatic-smoke/

Edited January 30, 2016 by Mecripp2
Remember a mod

[Inacio]

With a plugin to determine when to show the trails it would be pretty good.

[Mecripp]

Here is a updated Aerobatic Smoke https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72893034/Test%20Parts/AerobaticSmoke_Nazari_v1.0.5.zip

 

Mod by @Nazari1382  http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/71720-aerobatic-smoke/

License:
 
Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)

Change the texture to dds and a couple new stuff in the cfg for 1.0.5 and changed the path of the engine for using with 1.0.5

also added the newer smokescreen plugin http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/64987-105-smokescreen-2610-extended-fx-plugin-december-22th/

All credit to Nazari1382, sarbian, eggrobin

[Inacio]

Any chance you can make it toggle itself on or off depending on speed, altitude and angle of attack?

[Inacio]

On 30/01/2016 at 4:23 PM, MeCripp said:

Here is a updated Aerobatic Smoke https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72893034/Test%20Parts/AerobaticSmoke_Nazari_v1.0.5.zip

Tested this a bit, tried many settings but I really can't get it to look right. Persistent Trails is still the best bet I suppose.

[Mecripp]

Don't think Persistent Trails is waht your asking for has I think it just tracks were you have been not any type of smoke trail just show were you have been and will ghost back over the path.

[manni01]

On 1/30/2016 at 1:23 PM, MeCripp said:

Here is a updated Aerobatic Smoke https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72893034/Test%20Parts/AerobaticSmoke_Nazari_v1.0.5.zip

 

Mod by @Nazari1382  http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/71720-aerobatic-smoke/

License:
 
Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)

Change the texture to dds and a couple new stuff in the cfg for 1.0.5 and changed the path of the engine for using with 1.0.5

also added the newer smokescreen plugin http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/64987-105-smokescreen-2610-extended-fx-plugin-december-22th/

All credit to Nazari1382, sarbian, eggrobin

I like the mod a lot. I wanted to change the color of the smoke to red or blue, but I wasn't getting it right. It appears that the transparency of the area sorounding the smoke is somehow turned into black. It looks like this when I made it green.

I just converted the dds file to a png, color overlayed the smoke with green in photoshop, and then converted back to dds. Can you help me?

[Mecripp]

Did you take out the alpha channel ? Here is a green one if you want to see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72893034/test%20parts/Removed/srbsmokeG.png.zip

[manni01]

On 2/28/2016 at 0:58 PM, MeCripp said:

Did you take out the alpha channel ? Here is a green one if you want to see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72893034/test%20parts/Removed/srbsmokeG.png.zip

No. I didn't know what that is. I looked it up and I think I got it now. I haven't tested if it worked, but thanks for suggesting that to me.

[Inacio]

On 2/28/2016 at 11:36 PM, manni01 said:

I like the mod a lot. I wanted to change the color of the smoke to red or blue, but I wasn't getting it right. It appears that the transparency of the area sorounding the smoke is somehow turned into black. It looks like this when I made it green.

I just converted the dds file to a png, color overlayed the smoke with green in photoshop, and then converted back to dds. Can you help me?

The particles are so sparse, it's a shame, if only they were more like a line!

[Endersmens]

I've wanted this for a while, but an engine wasn't really my idea for it.  It would be cooler if the mod detected the widest part of the aircraft (which is almost always wingtips) and under high G load, produced white particles at that location. It would be super cool if the mod could also add the vapors trails over the top of the aircraft during high G turns. The current atmospheric particles would suffice perfectly, if they appeared just on the top of the craft during the turn. That would be awesome. 

 

Don't even get me started on supersonic condensation cones.  

[p1t1o]

On 1/24/2016 at 6:18 PM, JJE64 said:

What you're looking for are called "contrails" (or "chemtrails" if you're crazy)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

Nope, those are just engine exhaust condensation, what he's looking for are these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices

Spinning air formations formed at wingtips, the low pressure area inside the rapidly spinning air causes water vapour to condense under certain conditions of temperature, pressure and humidity. Generally more likely to be visible at higher angles of attack, when the vortices are stronger.

 

Don't even get me started on supersonic condensation cones.  

Oh, you mean Prandtl-Glauert singularities? I just typed that because I love the name

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by p1t1o

[MaxPeck]

10 hours ago, p1t1o said:

Nope, those are just engine exhaust condensation, what he's looking for are these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices

Spinning air formations formed at wingtips, the low pressure area inside the rapidly spinning air causes water vapour to condense under certain conditions of temperature, pressure and humidity. Generally more likely to be visible at higher angles of attack, when the vortices are stronger.

 

 

Er, not to pick nits, but they're contrails.  Contrail is short for condensation trails, which are formed in a number of circumstances, wingtip vortices being one of them, exhaust trails being another.  Both fall under the broad definition of contrail.  Contrails can also form around the tips of propellers, from control surface, secondary airfoils, and off of aerodynamic payloads such as external fuel tanks and pods.  They're all contrails, and they're all formed from the same phenomenon.

Source: me, a full-time college aviation professor.

[p1t1o]

5 hours ago, JJE64 said:

Er, not to pick nits, but they're contrails.  Contrail is short for condensation trails, which are formed in a number of circumstances, wingtip vortices being one of them, exhaust trails being another.  Both fall under the broad definition of contrail.  Contrails can also form around the tips of propellers, from control surface, secondary airfoils, and off of aerodynamic payloads such as external fuel tanks and pods.  They're all contrails, and they're all formed from the same phenomenon.

Source: me, a full-time college aviation professor.

Awww come on! That is using a pretty broad definition, Touche I suppose 

[Inacio]

21 hours ago, p1t1o said:

Oh, you mean Prandtl-Glauert singularities? I just typed that because I love the name

 

I'd ask for them too, but they're probably much harder to make.

I honestly have been wanting this ever since plane parts started popping up in mods. It's surprising that noone's done them yet!

[MaxPeck]

On April 15, 2016 at 3:20 AM, p1t1o said:

Awww come on! That is using a pretty broad definition, Touche I suppose 

If you're going to do it, do it all the way.  Why just settle for wingtip vortices, when you could provide the whole smash and produce a better effect?  We already have some aerodynamic effects in KSP, and if you try real hard, but we don't have transsonic effects and contrails, which is kind of disappointing.  It would be great to see the shockwave form and break on spaceplanes, and to have transsonic effects that force you to use delta wings for something other than decoration.  Maybe someday.

Well met, though, in your reply.  It's refreshing to see people discuss and not bicker in a forum.

 

[Inacio]

On 4/16/2016 at 10:03 AM, JJE64 said:

If you're going to do it, do it all the way.  Why just settle for wingtip vortices, when you could provide the whole smash and produce a better effect?  We already have some aerodynamic effects in KSP, and if you try real hard, but we don't have transsonic effects and contrails, which is kind of disappointing.  It would be great to see the shockwave form and break on spaceplanes, and to have transsonic effects that force you to use delta wings for something other than decoration.  Maybe someday.

Well met, though, in your reply.  It's refreshing to see people discuss and not bicker in a forum.

 

Beggars can't be choosers. I'd be more than happy with even just the wingtip vortices. The singularities would be amazing too. And for gameplay effects, FAR models transsonic effects iirc!

[Aghanim]

13 hours ago, Inacio said:

Beggars can't be choosers. I'd be more than happy with even just the wingtip vortices. The singularities would be amazing too. And for gameplay effects, FAR models transsonic effects iirc!

That is why I think that this is best implemented inside FAR, as its voxel aerodynamic sim engine should be able to identify those interesting parts, like these:

On 4/15/2016 at 8:45 AM, JJE64 said:

Contrails can also form around the tips of propellers, from control surface, secondary airfoils, and off of aerodynamic payloads such as external fuel tanks and pods. 

and use particle effect to simulate those conditions. However, this is hard, not to mention possible performance hit

Edited April 18, 2016 by Aghanim