During editing parts are lost inside objects

[davee]

Hello,

When I'm editing in the VAB, I want to embed a surface mount part (such as a fuel cell or battery), into another object in order to keep it from adding drag. For example, I want to add another fuel tank to a capsule so that the RCS system will have more fuel, and not have any of it sticking out in the wind. If I use the offset tool to offset a part and it gets completely buried, I can't figure out how to get it out of my craft. Is there a way to get it back out? I was also using offset tool to move a fuel cell into the surface so that it doesn't stick out and accidentally moved it too deep but I could still see part of it, but the editor wouldn't let me grab it.

Is it still possible to grab the buried part somehow?

Thanks!!

(p.s. I tried searching for the answer but didn't find it because I don't know a phrase that someone used to describe this problem.)

[Snark]

7 minutes ago, davee said:

When I'm editing in the VAB, I want to embed a surface mount part (such as a fuel cell or battery), into another object in order to keep it from adding drag. For example, I want to add another fuel tank to a capsule so that the RCS system will have more fuel, and not have any of it sticking out in the wind.

Note:  it doesn't work that way. You're not helping yourself.

Radially attached parts add drag based on their own characteristics, but not based on their actual physical position.  The game's stock aero model is pretty simple, and doesn't do any sort of analysis of the actual physical positioning of the parts when determining the amount of drag.  All it cares about is "are they stack-attached, or radial-attached."

Clipping them inside other parts doesn't reduce their drag.  They still generate just as much drag as if they weren't buried inside.  The only way to reduce drag is to just make them less draggy (e.g. by putting nosecones on), or by stack-mounting them behind something else rather than radially attaching.

Note that this is the behavior in stock aerodynamics.  I believe that FAR uses a more sophisticated voxel-based approach, and actually does take the positioning into account.

However, unless you're running FAR, the moral of the story is don't bother clipping for aero reasons, it doesn't help you.

(I realize that this doesn't answer your question of "how to grab parts inside other parts."  But it may render the question moot.)

Edited January 17, 2016 by Snark

[ForScience6686]

I thought that drag would be added to the parent part for surface mounted objects, regardless if you off set it.  Not sure how to answer your question as that is not something I would do.  I add cargo bays to protect those types of items.

[davee]

3 minutes ago, Snark said:

Note:  it doesn't work that way. You're not helping yourself.

Radially attached parts add drag based on their own characteristics, but not based on their actual physical position.  The game's stock aero model is pretty simple, and doesn't do any sort of analysis of the actual physical positioning of the parts when determining the amount of drag.  All it cares about is "are they stack-attached, or radial-attached."

Clipping them inside other parts doesn't reduce their drag.  They still generate just as much drag as if they weren't buried inside.  The only way to reduce drag is to just make them less draggy (e.g. by putting nosecones on), or by stack-mounting them behind something else rather than radially attaching.

Note that this is the behavior in stock aerodynamics.  I believe that FAR uses a more sophisticated voxel-based approach, and actually does take the positioning into account.

However, unless you're running FAR, the moral of the story is don't bother clipping for aero reasons, it doesn't help you.

(I realize that this doesn't answer your question of "how to grab parts inside other parts."  But it may render the question moot.)

Thanks for the answer. I guess I really need to know how to get the part out that's already inside another part. The drag issue was just for example, but I really need to know how to get stuff back out. That is the real issue. I've actually embedded a reaction wheel inside a capsule and it's lost inside of it now. Also I've had times when I was submerging other things and lost them. Is there a way to delete the lost part?

[ForScience6686]

You can try the old ctrl + z but that can get wonky.  I have had success at grabbing struts that didn't connect by zooming into the object, but that can also be risky.

[davee]

5 minutes ago, ForScience6686 said:

You can try the old ctrl + z but that can get wonky.  I have had success at grabbing struts that didn't connect by zooming into the object, but that can also be risky.

It's too late for ctrl-z. I wish I could do that now but in the process of editing, I lost the state of the edit session after restarting the app. I stoppped the app so I could go into the craft file and see if I could get it out that way, but I don't know the format of the file though.

Okay I learned my lesson: Be extremely careful while editing or parts can be lost inside and can't be removed later.

But....I know I can go into the craft file and remove it from the text file if only I knew the file format. I think I'll explore that option, because I see a lot of value in putting stuff inside other things as long as I can access them, for example: later on wanting to add an action group to an embedded object.

[Snark]

51 minutes ago, ForScience6686 said:

I thought that drag would be added to the parent part for surface mounted objects, regardless if you off set it.  Not sure how to answer your question as that is not something I would do.  I add cargo bays to protect those types of items.

That's true for "physicsless" parts.  But for other parts, they have their own drag.

However, in both cases:  the drag gets added regardless of physical position, and clipping inside something else doesn't help.

34 minutes ago, davee said:

But....I know I can go into the craft file and remove it from the text file if only I knew the file format. I think I'll explore that option, because I see a lot of value in putting stuff inside other things as long as I can access them, for example: later on wanting to add an action group to an embedded object.

That's an option. The text file's not too hard to deconstruct (just make sure you keep a backup copy!)

If you go with manual editing and want to delete a part, you need to delete the part itself, and also any references to that part from other parts.

Other parts that have references to it will be its parent part, and any other parts in a symmetry group with it.

For example:  I have a craft with some radially attached solar panels.  I go through my .craft file and find the PART section that starts with, "part = solarPanels5_4294258680".  Okay, that's the part.  So I delete that whole section... but I also search everywhere in the .craft file for other references to "solarPanels5_4294258680", and I find it in the following places:

• On the parent part, where it shows up as a line like this:  link = solarPanels5_4294258680
• On symmetry counterparts, where it shows up as a line like this:  sym = solarPanels5_4294258680

So, if I excise the PART { ... } section itself, and I delete the lines from parent & symmetry counterparts that reference it, then I've successfully performed a panelectomy.

 

...The other option for getting rid of the embedded part:  Just delete the part that it's embedded inside, and replace it with a fresh copy.    How practical that is depends on your ship design (it would be pretty inconvenient to do if that part has a whole bunch of child parts attached to it).

[Plusck]

Generally if you zoom in until the camera is "inside" an object, you can see and manipulate the object that is buried inside it.

You can move your ship out of the middle of the VAB, so you should be able to zoom in far enough to see inside any part of your build.

[davee]

7 minutes ago, Snark said:

That's true for "physicsless" parts.  But for other parts, they have their own drag.

However, in both cases:  the drag gets added regardless of physical position, and clipping inside something else doesn't help.

That's an option. The text file's not too hard to deconstruct (just make sure you keep a backup copy!)

If you go with manual editing and want to delete a part, you need to delete the part itself, and also any references to that part from other parts.

Other parts that have references to it will be its parent part, and any other parts in a symmetry group with it.

For example:  I have a craft with some radially attached solar panels.  I go through my .craft file and find the PART section that starts with, "part = solarPanels5_4294258680".  Okay, that's the part.  So I delete that whole section... but I also search everywhere in the .craft file for other references to "solarPanels5_4294258680", and I find it in the following places:

• On the parent part, where it shows up as a line like this:  link = solarPanels5_4294258680
• On symmetry counterparts, where it shows up as a line like this:  sym = solarPanels5_4294258680

So, if I excise the PART { ... } section itself, and I delete the lines from parent & symmetry counterparts that reference it, then I've successfully performed a panelectomy.

 

...The other option for getting rid of the embedded part:  Just delete the part that it's embedded inside, and replace it with a fresh copy.    How practical that is depends on your ship design (it would be pretty inconvenient to do if that part has a whole bunch of child parts attached to it).

Funny thing: I have a lost reaction wheel inside my capsule and tried deleting the part which is the last part that I attached apperantly since it's the last 'PART' entry in the file. But just deleting it caused the editor in the VAB to not finish loading the part. The delta v states didn't appear, the action groups mode didn't activate and it won't let me grab the capsule and move it.

So, I am so glad you told me this about deleting the references. I really need that info. I appreciate helping me. I'm glad I made a backup copy BTW. It's not a big deal now having to delete an embedded part, but in the future it'll be good to know how to fix it without having to delete the parent object.

Thanks!!!! This is valuable help!!

8 minutes ago, Plusck said:

Generally if you zoom in until the camera is "inside" an object, you can see and manipulate the object that is buried inside it.

You can move your ship out of the middle of the VAB, so you should be able to zoom in far enough to see inside any part of your build.

Thanks for telling me this. This might be the ultimate answer because I only edit the craft file as a last resort. I'm going to go in the vab editor and try this. Cool!!!!

[davee]

FYI: I just deleted the link and attn fields of the parent part and this fixed the issue that started after I deleted the reaction wheel I lost. Now I'm going to experiment with zooming in and get to know the beast so I can fix issues in the future if they come up. I think I'm armed with knowledge now that makes me dangerous! <grin>

[davee]

Plusck, I just found another way to look inside the object. I rotate the viewing perspective so that I'm looking straight down at the object from above then I use the mouse wheel or the page up/down buttons and lower my view until I'm looking inside the object from above.

[Plusck]

29 minutes ago, davee said:

Plusck, I just found another way to look inside the object. I rotate the viewing perspective so that I'm looking straight down at the object from above then I use the mouse wheel or the page up/down buttons and lower my view until I'm looking inside the object from above.

Of course! Stupid of me not to think of that.

Mind you, when I lose a strut inside a booster, I never think about zooming in to find it. I'll sit there trying to mouse over the thing for minutes at a time looking for it.

[Foxster]

There's a handy little mod that might help you called Part Wizard. 

It shows a list of all parts and highlights it as you mouse over it's name in the list. You can delete the part but not move it unfortunately. Perhaps at least a partial solution for you. 

[davee]

5 hours ago, Foxster said:

There's a handy little mod that might help you called Part Wizard. 

It shows a list of all parts and highlights it as you mouse over it's name in the list. You can delete the part but not move it unfortunately. Perhaps at least a partial solution for you. 

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to look for it. It could be handier than messing with the editor to fix the problem.

[fourfa]

It's not so hard to just rotate around at high zoom, and find the part inside other parts.  I do it all the time for struts and fuel lines