Starting planes useless?

[meuqsaco]

Hello guys.

I really like the fact that Kerbin has two natural satellites, one being the Mun which is much harder to land on, due to the terrain and gravity and then Minmus which has almost no gravity and thus allows to easily explore with the same rocket you use to land with. My problem is that there is nothing around(besides Kerbin) which has atmosphere so I can bring a plane around(rover exploring is SLOW). The closest place I found was Eve or Duna which are a long trip away from. For me, this makes planes useless until you have unlocked the tech. for spaceplanes. Wouldn't it make sense to have a third natural satellite with atmosphere or change Minmus to have it? This way we can practice before sending more dangerous missions to other planets.

[DrMarlboro]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that planes are only meant for use on other bodies? If that is so, then I would have to disagree. There are loads of reasons to use early planes on kerbin in career mode, like contracts that require testing parts (i've found i can do most of the early rocket part tests for cheaper by putting a ton of them on a plane) or in atmosphere science contracts. 

there's tons of reasons to use them even if that reason is purely for fun.

Edited February 17, 2016 by DrMarlboro

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

you can test your (Lathe and Eve)  planes on Kerbin.

IMHO in a career game other than Kerbin exploration contracts, early planes do seem useless,

[Elway358]

I've yet to even touch any type of plane other than about a minute in one of the stock ones just to see what it looked like. In career mode so far Ive built a base on the Mun, have 3 different space stations, explored Minmus, and did a bit of Duna roving. I see absolutely no need for planes of any type and honestly have no desire to even build one. I have all but 3 nodes of the tech tree unlocked even.

I know a lot of people love the spaceplanes but for me, if I wanted to fly planes I would play a flight simulator made for that. Rockets4Lyfe!

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

Are you kidding? hauling this stuff on rockets is costing me a fortune!

I'm about where you are - game wise (about day 300? ktime?)

And I just spent a weekend trying to build a Tech Tier 5 space plane. I did it. It's kinda sketchy, and needs two SRBs, but it can take 3 kerbal to space and back. Immediately used it for an orbital rescue contract, 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Brainlord Mesomorph

[sal_vager]

Part tests and surveys are a lot easier with a plane, and don't forget all the biome science on Kerbin.

And sub-orbital multistage spaceplanes are possible early on.

[Elway358]

The rockets definitely aren't cheap but really after I got all the buildings upgraded and stuff, I've had more money than I can even think about spending. Maybe it's just because I've played plenty of plane flying games but as far as I can remember, never a rocket building space exploration game. I just don't care anything about planes even to save cost or do some science a bit easier.

Maybe once I've kinda "played out" rockets and base building my mind will change.

[Evanitis]

44 minutes ago, meuqsaco said:

Wouldn't it make sense to have a third natural satellite with atmosphere or change Minmus to have it? This way we can practice before sending more dangerous missions to other planets.

Umm.. What's the matter with Kerbin? You can practice on it as much as you want. It has atmo, it has gravety, it has space around it. It even has moons you can land on with your plane (if it's built for such). And with orbital refuelling, taking your spaceplane to other planets is really not too difficult or particulary hard to engineer.

6 minutes ago, sal_vager said:

sub-orbital multistage spaceplanes are possible early on

I raise you one that orbits and lands 8 tourists with lower tech. Only 29 parts, so one can add an autopilot module. Though I admit, it's ascent profile isn't too beginner friendly (each successful tests up to now contained 2-3 atmospheric backflips).

[juanml82]

Eve has a thick atmosphere... without oxygen. I haven't flown planes there, but I'm not sure I'd bother without some mod which adds engines able to use Eve's atmosphere as a resource, or electric propellers.

Duna is doable, with either aerospikes or nukes, but have you tried landing a plane there?

 

I think you can practice on Kerbin. As for other bodies with oxygen, IMHO it's a matter of immersion, if not "realism". Free oxygen in the atmosphere is a rare thing, because it's a sign of life (otherwise, the oxygen reacts with plenty of other stuff and disapears as such), so it makes sense there is only one other body with oxygenated atmospheres. That said, electric propellers would be a welcome addition to the game and aren't as outlandish as atomic jets (doable in real life if you want to kill your pilot by radiation poisoning) or the magic atmospheric engines which use karbonite or kethane as propellant and "intake atmosphere" as oxidizer.

[Glaran K'erman]

Unfortunately planes have very little utility in the game despite what people like to imagine with part tests and whatnot. I say unfortunately because planes are fun. I enjoy building them and take them for little cruises all over Kerbin BUT (and here is the big 'but') I don't HAVE to. The time and trouble of harvesting science anywhere on Kerbin can be better spent putting a mission together that sends you out of the atmosphere, which will be of much more benefit. As it pertains to part tests, a little trial and error with the thrust limiter and fuel levels on SRB's will suit all your needs 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Glaran K'erman

[steuben]

Useless, no.

Incredibility useful, not until tech levels 5-6.

At level 4 they are a bit of a grindy way to generate science, funds, and rep.

A pair of Junos, a Reliant,  380 LF, and 220 O will build you the core of a plane that will let you hit around 30 km, less the further you are away from KSC.

[meuqsaco]

48 minutes ago, Evanitis said:

Umm.. What's the matter with Kerbin? You can practice on it as much as you want. It has atmo, it has gravety, it has space around it. It even has moons you can land on with your plane (if it's built for such). And with orbital refuelling, taking your spaceplane to other planets is really not too difficult or particulary hard to engineer.

Yes, but flying in Kerbin is a bit boring, it poses no challenge and there is little reward. It would be much better if we had somewhere closer that required us to build a rocket to carry our low tech plane to use for exploring/science.

48 minutes ago, juanml82 said:

Eve has a thick atmosphere... without oxygen. I haven't flown planes there, but I'm not sure I'd bother without some mod which adds engines able to use Eve's atmosphere as a resource, or electric propellers.

Duna is doable, with either aerospikes or nukes, but have you tried landing a plane there?

 

I think you can practice on Kerbin. As for other bodies with oxygen, IMHO it's a matter of immersion, if not "realism". Free oxygen in the atmosphere is a rare thing, because it's a sign of life (otherwise, the oxygen reacts with plenty of other stuff and disapears as such), so it makes sense there is only one other body with oxygenated atmospheres. That said, electric propellers would be a welcome addition to the game and aren't as outlandish as atomic jets (doable in real life if you want to kill your pilot by radiation poisoning) or the magic atmospheric engines which use karbonite or kethane as propellant and "intake atmosphere" as oxidizer.

Oh, I wasn't aware that these planets don't have oxygen which is required for the engine to run... Damn, so there is nowhere else we can fly our planes besides Kerbin? Maybe I have to mod my game to add a new location for this kind of setup. I would love to have a base somewhere in another planet which I could launch planes from.

[GDJ]

Well, Laythe is the only other stock planet with Oxygen to run jet planes, but any planet with an atmosphere can run electric driven propellers to fly (build your plane accordingly).

As far as Kerbin, grab a few contract packs. I have several related to aircraft and they are challenging (Coast Guard rescues, flying tourists, anomaly seeking missions, etc). I would recommend these for added in-game challenges.

Edited February 17, 2016 by GDJ

[juanml82]

4 minutes ago, meuqsaco said:

Yes, but flying in Kerbin is a bit boring, it poses no challenge and there is little reward. It would be much better if we had somewhere closer that required us to build a rocket to carry our low tech plane to use for exploring/science.

Oh, I wasn't aware that these planets don't have oxygen which is required for the engine to run... Damn, so there is nowhere else we can fly our planes besides Kerbin? Maybe I have to mod my game to add a new location for this kind of setup. I would love to have a base somewhere in another planet which I could launch planes from.

Laythe has oxygen. Getting to Duna takes just a bit more fuel than getting to the Mun, and there is a thin atmosphere which may help you slow down a bit to capture.

However, it offers very different challenges for flying planes than Kerbin. A plane which flies on Kerbin, regardless of the engine, won't perform well on Duna and viceversa.

On Duna, you'll typically want a lot more lift, a lot more control surfaces and vernors to adjust course and due the terrain, you'll have a hard time landing. Aerobrakes are of limited use, due the thin atmosphere and the terrain is rather rolling. You probably want to put your landing gear in the wing tips to prevent the wings from colliding in the ground, you will need retrorockets to break and you may want to use structural panels (which provide lift) at the edges of your plane due their higher impact tolerance.

As for engines, it's nukes or aerospikes, and you can try to fit the stock smaller mining equipment to refuel or look for some mod which adds inline mk2 mining equipment (don't remember the name atm)

[Jetski]

Consider downloading the New Horizons mod. Really well done, and a good spaceplane playground near Kerbin orbit.

[Stoney3K]

2 hours ago, GDJ said:

Well, Laythe is the only other stock planet with Oxygen to run jet planes, but any planet with an atmosphere can run electric driven propellers to fly (build your plane accordingly).

As far as Kerbin, grab a few contract packs. I have several related to aircraft and they are challenging (Coast Guard rescues, flying tourists, anomaly seeking missions, etc). I would recommend these for added in-game challenges.

Flying on the Kerbin surface could use some love, IMO. Planes are pretty useless in science career since the science payoff from Kerbin's surface is next to nothing. That's not worth the effort of flying an hour to get halfway around the globe and land.

A higher science bonus on hitting hard-to-find easter eggs and anomalies would be great here.

[Edax]

 

You can make an unpowered landing with a plane on Duna if you have plenty of lift, lightweight design, and you aim to land in the canyon where you have more atmosphere to work with.

 

[GDJ]

1 minute ago, Stoney3K said:

Flying on the Kerbin surface could use some love, IMO. Planes are pretty useless in science career since the science payoff from Kerbin's surface is next to nothing. That's not worth the effort of flying an hour to get halfway around the globe and land.

A higher science bonus on hitting hard-to-find easter eggs and anomalies would be great here.

The anomaly contracts do take care of this, and the payouts are pretty good.

Yeah, a few more Kerbin only contracts would be nice, but....

[Stoney3K]

Just now, GDJ said:

The anomaly contracts do take care of this, and the payouts are pretty good.

Yeah, a few more Kerbin only contracts would be nice, but....

I was talking about SCIENCE career, not contracts.

[GDJ]

Just now, Stoney3K said:

I was talking about SCIENCE career, not contracts.

Okay.

What I was getting at is the contracts do help with earning science.

 

[Kosmognome]

I agree that planes are somewhat useless for career or science mode.

 

You only need 10 science to get into orbit. This is easily acquired by performing tests on the pad/runway. After being able to orbit, you can upgrade the astronaut complex for 75k  (don't even have to do that in science mode), and you can gather enough science to go to the Mun by doing EVAs above all biomes. A mun mission gives 600 science, easily allowing you to build a minmus hopper to get ~4500 science from minmus.

 

At that point, you'll already have skipped the most basic plane parts and haven't had any use for them. Going interplanetary yields additional science, and grinding down kerbin in a plane is just a tremendous waste of time with planes, as the time to get to different biomes in a plane is incredibly high, even with 4x warp. You don#t really need to do contracts to get money, and if you do, putting up 2-4 satellites with one rocket launch gets you more funds per time spent then any plane flight.

 

Plane parts only become relevant in the late game, wehere spaceplanes (SSTOs) or planes for other bodies (laythe) become interesting. Before that; I don't see any incentive to use planes at all. All the basic plane parts just seem to be a waste of space in the part selector, without any real use...

[GoSlash27]

meuqsaco,

 Yeah, planes are pretty much worthless in career. Not because there's no place to fly them *coughkerbincough*, but because the science payout for other biomes is so dismal.

 This complaint doesn't include spaceplanes. Spaceplanes are awesome for shuttling kerbonauts between KSC and LKO and ferrying fuel to orbit cheaply. But unless you just want to check off all the science boxes for Kerbin, there's just no reason to fly anywhere.

Best,
-Slashy

[Choctofliatrio2.0]

I like using planes in career and science mode because it's fun. I'm going for a semi-realistic stock science game, so I need to launch communication satellites and such. (They're useless, but it seems fun) So to do this, I am avoiding too many manned launches until I can unlock solar panels and the OCTO. So I'll use planes to grab some science around Kerbin. With a little VTOL from Junos, you can get a good amount of KSC science with some 2-3 minute missions.

[Nich]

Sadly the science points spent in plane tech don't even pay for themselves science wise.  I have not done it in a while but kerbins poles give just as much science as kerbins shores i think.  Boy was I disappointed when I launched a science rocket there.

[GoSlash27]

11 hours ago, Nich said:

Sadly the science points spent in plane tech don't even pay for themselves science wise.  I have not done it in a while but kerbins poles give just as much science as kerbins shores i think.  Boy was I disappointed when I launched a science rocket there.

 Nich,

 They do if you use the plane parts to build a rover

Best,
-Slashy