Why not in stock?

[AbacusWizard]

No, really; just copy-paste that formula into the search bar, replace the [stuff] with the numbers from the ship's information box in KSP, and hit Enter. It's not like it's rocket science.

[QPDO]

10 hours ago, AbacusWizard said:

No, really; just copy-paste that formula into the search bar, replace the [stuff] with the numbers from the ship's information box in KSP, and hit Enter. It's not like it's rocket science.

Of course it is possible to calculate it on your own. You can also code an app for your rooted cell phone, load the apk to your cell and run it in developers mode. But why exactly does the maneuver node show the maneuver dV then ? Its inconsistent game design. As you said... its not actual rocket science. So where is the point to force players to do it the complicated way? Esspecially if it comes to a console version that will be hardcoded vanilla.

[Buster Charlie]

Gee whizz guys, I'm sure I can find some formula for predicting the position of planets,  why do we need a map view to hold our hands for us? We just need a compass and a sextant  or something.

 

Seriously, when was the last time someone seriously suggested that adding up numbers, possibly doing unit conversions,  writing those numbers down, exiting a video game, opening a Web browser, preforming algebra,  then writing down numbers again, and repeating the process, was a legitimate alternative to core game functionality? 

I deal with unit conversions and stuff like that in my day to day life, I don't find it fun or relaxing to do this in a video game, even if it is trivial.

 

[monstah]

On 18/02/2016 at 2:23 AM, Clockwork13 said:

Huh? I thought Squad developed KerbalEDU.

 

On 18/02/2016 at 2:28 AM, Red Iron Crown said:

No, they're a separate company that partnered with Squad. They sell their educational enhancements packaged with a KSP license, as I understand it.

Today I, too, learned something new! Guess KerbalEDU is sticking to it's educational goals even when it doesn't know about it...  

 

15 minutes ago, Buster Charlie said:

Gee whizz guys, I'm sure I can find some formula for predicting the position of planets,  why do we need a map view to hold our hands for us? We just need a compass and a sextant  or something.

 

Seriously, when was the last time someone seriously suggested that adding up numbers, possibly doing unit conversions,  writing those numbers down, exiting a video game, opening a Web browser, preforming algebra,  then writing down numbers again, and repeating the process, was a legitimate alternative to core game functionality? 

I deal with unit conversions and stuff like that in my day to day life, I don't find it fun or relaxing to do this in a video game, even if it is trivial.

Potential undetected sarcasm aside, maybe it was the day someone decided to buy a game that's an actual space program simulation, even if a bit simplistic at times?

[QPDO]

41 minutes ago, monstah said:

 

Potential undetected sarcasm aside, maybe it was the day someone decided to buy a game that's an actual space program simulation, even if a bit simplistic at times?

Could be the day a game bad person was born that forces people to play the way he likes it. We just need something in stock (maybe even optional or in the tech tree) that has been developed and coded for the game three times already. (KER, MJ and KerbalEDU.) But maybe all the super smart rocket scientist should prepare a wiki for those that would like to play the game the way they like but are even forced to calculate dV and TWR. A Wiki explaining that you need to add up the thrust of all thrusters of one stage (kN) multiply it with the mass (t) add some soja sauce and bla bla bla ... Anyone sees the problem in that ? It involves unit conversion and basic physics just for the TWR. Maybe.. and just maybe (potential undetected nerdiocratism aside)...  some people would like to build rockets instead and just check if a number is between 1 and 2 and see that they reach Mun when they have a dV of 6000 on their rocket.

Edited February 19, 2016 by QPDO

[Temeter]

Delta-V displays are coming to KSP, the only reason we don't get them is Squad wanting to implement them correctly into the campaign, and recently there have been other priorities.

[QPDO]

Just now, Temeter said:

Delta-V displays are coming to KSP, the only reason we don't get them is Squad wanting to implement them correctly into the campaign, and recently there have been other priorities.

Should I hold my breath, my dinner or my real estate investment until it is coming ? Soon(tm) I guess ...

[Evanitis]

17 hours ago, Laguna said:

"But those are the challenges!" some people say.  Um, no, they are not.  Building a Mun rocket and executing a successful Mun landing is a challenge, not knowing how much dV that rocket has when building it is just an artificial handicap that all too many videogames have.

Dunno. I totally get where Squad is coming from. When I fist played KSP, I totally loved that I only see 3 numbers (and one of those is the clock). I had much fun watching rockets explode, and figuring out that I also need to go sideways to get into orbit. I landed a kerbal on the Mun. A few days later I landed a living kerbal too. A week later I landed a kerbal on the Mun and brought him back. All without even knowing what 'V' means in dV. Jolly good times.

When I got deeper into the game, I of course added readouts and various tools. But having those (or just a portion of those) at the very start would have been daunting. I probably would have given up playing if I had to figure out what KER data means, or how can I use various MJ functions.

Of course I'd probably have a different opinion if KSP was a console game (and soon it will be). Hope the poor guys will not need to calculate dV on a paper separate app. Though no matter how many features will the devs include in the console versions, it'll still be a lot less flexible game. I'd feel with them, but I'll just remind myself that unlike me, they played The Last of Us and God of War.

[ModZero]

12 minutes ago, QPDO said:

just check if a number is between 1 and 2

At which altitude? :-P

I actually ten to use KER or VOID (depending on my mood), but TBH back when the reviews happened, I've seen people actually appreciating the "just wing it" attitude encouraged by KSP as it is right now. It's also probably the reason we have no life support in stock (the punishment for underestimated ECLSS requirements on an Eeeloo mission would hit way too late). So it's a question of which option encourages (encourages — people might have options, but options encourage to turn everything on, and possibly have less fun) people to have more fun, where fun is a quite subjective idea. And we can't gauge it with a forum poll, so please don't start one. Please.

[Temeter]

7 minutes ago, QPDO said:

Should I hold my breath, my dinner or my real estate investment until it is coming ? Soon(tm) I guess ...

Why bother? Kerbal Engineer and Mechjeb already bring that information. I'd prefer Squad concentrating on v1.1!

Edited February 19, 2016 by Temeter

[QPDO]

1 minute ago, ModZero said:

At which altitude? :-P

I actually ten to use KER or VOID (depending on my mood), but TBH back when the reviews happened, I've seen people actually appreciating the "just wing it" attitude encouraged by KSP as it is right now. It's also probably the reason we have no life support in stock (the punishment for underestimated ECLSS requirements on an Eeeloo mission would hit way too late). So it's a question of which option encourages (encourages — people might have options, but options encourage to turn everything on, and possibly have less fun) people to have more fun, where fun is a quite subjective idea. And we can't gauge it with a forum poll, so please don't start one. Please.

Kerbin Sea Level of course. Hardcode Vanilla wont have EL or something and you can estimate acceleration in space on a 0. TWR at sea level for the upper stages in vac.

Asking about fun .. how much fun is losing all your cash due to not being able to revert and just not having enough dV to complete the mission? Requiring you to grind the money again as you can´t send up a refuel ship lacking KIS/KAS or docking ports in early games. Rinse and Repeat might be fun in the Kerbin SOI, but on interplanetary a dV prediction will definietly stop creating frustration. Even if you have to build a Computing Station and man it with Scientists or reach Tier 3 in the Tracking station.

5 minutes ago, Temeter said:

Why bother? Kerbal Engineer and Mechjeb already bring that information. I'd prefer Squad concentrating on v1.1!

Sorry, I´m always talking about forced stock on consoles. Hardcoded Vanilla.

[ModZero]

 

16 minutes ago, QPDO said:

Asking about fun .. how much fun is losing all your cash due to not being able to revert and just not having enough dV to complete the mission?

Don't ask me, I'm playing with tools. But I've seen people enjoying the randomness (and often science mode, so no funds to worry about), and I don't believe the forum is representative of general KSP population. *Maybe* Squad has useful data to judge this, but we don't.

Personally I'd like stock LS, readouts and kOS (my personal preference is for giving the players a computer, not an autopilot — but letting them share code). But it's all personal preference, and I do have really good, well integrated mods that do these, so I'm not going to cry too much :-)

16 minutes ago, QPDO said:

Sorry, I´m always talking about forced stock on consoles. Hardcoded Vanilla.

Fair point, but how useful are information-dense displays on TV screens? I don't have much console experience, so maybe it's perfectly fine, I'm just wondering.

Edited February 19, 2016 by ModZero
I hate the new editor. Hate hate hate. Hate it so much. I spend my nights sleepless, gnashing my teeth because that's how much the new comment editor stresses me.

[QPDO]

22 minutes ago, ModZero said:

 

Don't ask me, I'm playing with tools. But I've seen people enjoying the randomness (and often science mode, so no funds to worry about), and I don't believe the forum is representative of general KSP population. *Maybe* Squad has useful data to judge this, but we don't.

Fair point, but how useful are information-dense displays on TV screens? I don't have much console experience, so maybe it's perfectly fine, I'm just wondering.

Well I guess the topic should at least be brought to attention

Concerning the info on a tv screen I´d say that a window with appropriate font size that appears on a special button or L3/R3 should do. Could be equivalent to the solution to the contracts screen or resource readout. Could even be a numeral addon to the engineering info in the VAB actually. Or a bar that shows TWR and dV as Current/Max and Min in the current SOI on the fly. Maybe a quarter circle on the other side of the navball (opposite to the maneuver dV) with a counter that shows the complete dV left and little white markers on the bars for the stages left in it. One could even replace the fuel bars of the staging ui with numerals that show the dV of each segment for the current situation.

Edited February 19, 2016 by QPDO

[monstah]

55 minutes ago, QPDO said:

Could be the day a game bad person was born that forces people to play the way he likes it.

Who are you calling a bad person? I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, and I don't see SQUAD or anyone else forcing anything, either. In fact, the game features not only mods, but also a "cheat window" for tweaking your game experience to whatever you'd like.

SQUAD deliberately wants you to play the game in whatever way you'd like. But they ship the game the way they think they'd like new players to play the game. I can totally relate to that. It's their game, after all, and they do have their reasons (more below).

55 minutes ago, QPDO said:

We just need something in stock (maybe even optional or in the tech tree) that has been developed and coded for the game three times already. (KER, MJ and KerbalEDU.)

I don't need anything; and I certainly don't need it on stock. Like @Evanitis said above, I was just fine and dandy landing on the moon on 0.17 before I even realized I could mod the game. Besides, you mentioned three things that were coded and developed by third parties. The fact it was developed shows it's possible, not that it's needed.

55 minutes ago, QPDO said:

But maybe all the super smart rocket scientist should prepare a wiki for those that would like to play the game the way they like but are even forced to calculate dV and TWR. A Wiki explaining that you need to add up the thrust of all thrusters of one stage (kN) multiply it with the mass (t) add some soja sauce and bla bla bla ... Anyone sees the problem in that ? It involves unit conversion and basic physics just for the TWR

Maybe the developers just want you to launch some rockets and judge if you need more by the results? At least, that is what they have stated on the subject.

55 minutes ago, QPDO said:

Maybe.. and just maybe (potential undetected nerdiocratism aside)...  some people would like to build rockets instead and just check if a number is between 1 and 2 and see that they reach Mun when they have a dV of 6000 on their rocket.

Sorry if I offended you there. I said 'potential undetected sarcasm' because, well, people are sarcastic here (as in life) all the time, but it doesn't translate to text well, so I could be responding to something that was not meant as I interpreted it. I was a bit sarcastic myself on that comment, for instance. Guess it backfired?

Anyway, with no offense intended (or nerdiocratism), since I began playing the game without looking at any numbers and still had success, as did many others, I don't see how this is a problem.

Besides, the topic is "Why not in stock?". SQUAD has mentioned many, many times their opinions, I'm not gonna google them now but they paraphrase to this:

57 minutes ago, Evanitis said:

Dunno. I totally get where Squad is coming from. When I fist played KSP, I totally loved that I only see 3 numbers (and one of those is the clock). I had much fun watching rockets explode, and figuring out that I also need to go sideways to get into orbit. I landed a kerbal on the Mun. A few days later I landed a living kerbal too. A week later I landed a kerbal on the Mun and brought him back. All without even knowing what 'V' means in dV. Jolly good times.

When I got deeper into the game, I of course added readouts and various tools. But having those (or just a portion of those) at the very start would have been daunting. I probably would have given up playing if I had to figure out what KER data means, or how can I use various MJ functions.

(emphasis mine)

So, whether you agree with that or not is another story. You can surely disagree, I won't be offended and neither will them (thought people may be offended by how you or others express their disagreement). But the question of "why not in stock" it's not there has been answered long ago: because the developers believe that is the best way, and they do it with their best intention  

[QPDO]

Hail to the Devs then! Praise the priests of the 0.1s and their fellowship. Stones on those that ask for two simple (as stated) numbers for the console version that wont be modable for the foreseeable future.

[monstah]

59 minutes ago, QPDO said:

Sorry, I´m always talking about forced stock on consoles. Hardcoded Vanilla.

Why are you forced to play stock? The person who forces you indeed sounds like a bad person, but it surely isn't SQUAD!

edit: consoles, didn't read that part. Okay, you got a point, but I haven't seen the consoles yet, so I can't say much.

Edited February 19, 2016 by monstah